Do riders undervalue training?

[scats]

My friend had a lesson with Stephen Clarke (SC very kindly shared his packet of biscuits with me on a cold winter morning!) and although it was good, it was very expensive and my friend said difficult to get much out of a single session.

 

[millitiger]

I'm wary of big name lessons now- firstly I've had 1 or 2 horror lessons, secondly I find a lot of them aren't really invested and don't really care how you get on and lastly they tend to be hella expensive for a large group session.

I pay £50-60 currently for each of my jump and flat trainers (1 of each) and if I had more spare cash, I would simply have more lessons with them

 

[Bernster]

I’ve been lucky to have two lessons with Ros Canter and she was really good. But often good riders don’t = good trainers and one off clinics are tough to do well. Plus the financials ofc.

 

[teapot]

If people placed a proper value on training over constant competitions and instagram content, the horse world would be a better place, and maybe greater demand for decent training venues imho. People want instant results, not training and development which for both riding and horses can be months if not years.

That said, decent training is now verging on three figures for 45mins/an hour so I do understand why people don't spend money on regular lessons, versus say the cost of two BD tests.

(I just booked a generic riding school lesson for three figures...)


Whether pros are worth the money is a whole different argument as just because someone can ride to the top level doesn't necessarily mean they can explain it or help improve what's happening in front of them.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Camps seem to be quite popular. You get 2 or 3 days of solid training with the same coaches.

 

[LEC]

A lot of the time I find them a complete waste of time. You are paying £50-70 for a group lesson of 4 people which drives me mad. Loathe it. I have a pathological loathing of group lessons above 3 and I like to put the groups together!!
I have had so many crap lessons with bad groups and I get really fed up so won’t do it now. Hence I run all my group training to get the trainers I want. I used to run Caroline Moore for £45 for groups of 3 for 1hr15 so that was great value! This is the other problem, I know the costs of everything so object to people adding profit on top. For instance I know what Cameron Beer charges per hour so object to a group lesson for the same price.
There is a cost Vs value balance with group lessons and most of the time with ‘names’ that balance doesn’t come off.

Ultimately I am spoilt rotten with a wonderful trainer 20 mins down the road so go and see her. I then have other trainers I really rate and my RC is excellent at providing good trainers for £20 groups of 3.

 

[Keith_Beef]

Also some are better ‘doers’ than ‘teachers’.

This is true in all domains. It's one thing to be good at something; to be able to teach is an entirely different skill.

 

[nikkimariet]

Why don't you ask him? My YO's husband did, asked Carl for some lessons for her and he agreed. Was a fair few years ago now but she still talks about it regularly.

Christ no it would be the one day I’d fall off just getting on lol

 

[nikkimariet]

A lot of the time I find them a complete waste of time. You are paying £50-70 for a group lesson of 4 people which drives me mad. Loathe it. I have a pathological loathing of group lessons above 3 and I like to put the groups together!!
I have had so many crap lessons with bad groups and I get really fed up so won’t do it now. Hence I run all my group training to get the trainers I want. I used to run Caroline Moore for £45 for groups of 3 for 1hr15 so that was great value! This is the other problem, I know the costs of everything so object to people adding profit on top. For instance I know what Cameron Beer charges per hour so object to a group lesson for the same price.
There is a cost Vs value balance with group lessons and most of the time with ‘names’ that balance doesn’t come off.

Ultimately I am spoilt rotten with a wonderful trainer 20 mins down the road so go and see her. I then have other trainers I really rate and my RC is excellent at providing good trainers for £20 groups of 3.

Agree on the group lessons. I’ve done a few for fun and you get a third or a quarter of the attention for more of the cost. Not worth it. Unless it’s you and a friend and want to share the journey etc it’s just not worth it imho.

 

[Goldenstar]

I like group lessons for jumping when horses are young they learn to behave with others and to stand when the others are jumping the longer sessions teach them to switch off and then jump which is useful for event horses and their muscles get a break .
Some experienced horses are best jumping alone warmed up and then a short busy session .

 

[spacefaer]

I've known Jonty ages and he taught long before his accident - he's an excellent trainer and he teaches individuals regularly and does a lot of clinics so it would be possible to have follow up lessons with him, if you clicked with him .

I've been lucky enough to have lessons from some very top people and would agree that the ability to ride at a high level does not always translate to an ability to teach it!

Many years ago, I had a session with a 5* Swedish event rider and she genuinely had no comprehension that one of the more nervous riders in the group couldn't do the exercise set because she was absolutely terrified.

I'm not currently competing but I do enjoy the odd training session, but I'm v picky about the trainers available locally, who tend in the main, to cater to a different type of horse/rider combination.

I'm not fussed whether they're famous or not. All I ask is that they teach me and the horse they see in front of them, not the lesson they'd planned, regardless of the riders.

 

[sbloom]

I know a few of the actual accredited coaches and several of those would be worth a look, sitting in between BHS and purely competition riders, with quite structured training and often interested in fitness, psychology etc. Jemma Whitlam is someone I work with now, have worked with Christine Shubrook in the past, both are BS coaches.

 

[muddybay]

I've got a horse who cannot be in a group so I find a lot of the trainers who only offer groups of 4/6 people inaccessible

 

[humblepie]

I think group lessons have their place - as above if you are jumping it gives the horse a chance to have a rest and when I took my ex racehorse out to start off with they were really good at getting him working with a group, moving away from a group and doing his own thing etc. It all depends what you want and what you are working at with your horse. Generally though the groups are probably only two or three. I did go as a guinea pig rider for a BD coaching session as a pair and that was fairly poor, as definitely spent a lot more time on the horse other. That said, it was free, it was like an arena hire with someone in the middle!

 

[Jellymoon]

I saw the Jonty Evans clinic and nearly signed up, but something stopped me and I’m trying to think what it is…

I think it’s because I went xc training for the first time with my regular trainer shortly after I saw the ad, and it was such a good session, I thought, I’d rather spend £45 for an individual session with him. He’s also a 5* rider, so I know he knows his stuff, he also knows me and the horse.

I’m old and not as star struck now - I think before I would have gone just for the fun or it, to meet a famous person and chat with the others in the group, watch them on their lovely horses.

Also, maybe, as I’m old, I have a need to feel safe when I have xc sessions and I’m on a young horse. I trust my regular trainer and I like to know his focus is fully on me. The thought of going to a group session with someone I don’t know in charge made me feel a bit nervous….perhaps it was that too.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Lots of interesting perspectives. I do a mix of everything and never stop trying new people, new approaches, new venues. I like individual sessions and have 1:1 jumping lessons with a trainer who I respect and feel very happy with. Then I joined a group lesson with a new trainer and was pushed more and stepped up - all at once - from 80/90 with the focus on jumping SJ as part of eventing at 90, to 90/100 with the aim of BS at novice. Just becase a new pair of eyes felt I could do more, and the group was slightly ahead of me which made me raise my game, and her enthusiasm for pure SJ and encouragement of me to go for it, was infectious. I stlll want to mainly event but feel my jumping is now in a different place completely for having gone to a group with someone new. I still have the 1:1s too. But in the meantime have done a few BS classes up to 95 (105 jump off.) which my usual trainer knows about, so suddenly her expectations of me are different too, and we do more in the 1:1s. But I think I needed to get out of my comfort zone first for that to happen. Or at least to happen as quickly as it did.

A similar thing happened XC when I had missed lots of planned training and just booked in a private with someone available as I was desperate for some XC training before my first event. It was a new trainer and she was fab. Just a different perspective which was really helpful.

On the other hand I have had some sessions that I would not bother with again. That feels fine to me too. If a new trainer adds nothing new then I have just had a nice day out. If a new trainer DOES add something new then I have gained another skill or tool in my toolkit.

I did have a couple of lessons on Amber that I felt were actively harmful to her or me or both. (One freebie with a UKCC coach under assessment. And another with a macho idiot.) On both occasions I did not want to do what was being suggested but lacked the confidence to refuse. I trust my own judgement enough now not to agree to things that I am unhappy about. It has never happened with Lottie.

 

[Bernster]

I got into a right pickle having too many trainers at one point and scaled back massively. I’m now also re thinking group lessons especially xc as I’m not sure they suit me or Bertie. We’ve been going really well in solo sj lessons. But obv Clinics with groups are far easier to find.

 

[millitiger]

I do wish we did more spectator friendly clinics in this country.

I would much rather spend £50 and watching a number of groups- firstly I think you pick things up by osmosis and secondly it would give me confidence to try someone new if I saw them teach first.

I'd love to watch some lessons of people jumping 1.15+ as the next step up for us, but many venues and/ or trainers are not keen on 'outside' spectators at all.

 

[Kunoichi73]

I do wish we did more spectator friendly clinics in this country.

I would much rather spend £50 and watching a number of groups- firstly I think you pick things up by osmosis and secondly it would give me confidence to try someone new if I saw them teach first.

I'd love to watch some lessons of people jumping 1.15+ as the next step up for us, but many venues and/ or trainers are not keen on 'outside' spectators at all.

I agree. I don't have a horse so options for clinics seem limited. That said, I can understand that people riding in clinics might not want to be watched.

As a non-horse owning rider, I do get the feeling that some people (RS riders) don't necessarily want to train the basics. They want to canter round and jump. I sometimes get the feeling that new RS instructors are surprised when they ask me what I want to work on and I tell them balance and position and don't immediately say jumping. At the moment, I'd rather spend the whole lesson in walk, trot or without stirrups than razz around or jump. Again, I can sort of understand that if you only ride for an hour a week or less, you might want to do something more exciting than walk or trot work.

 

[teapot]

I do wish we did more spectator friendly clinics in this country.

I would much rather spend £50 and watching a number of groups- firstly I think you pick things up by osmosis and secondly it would give me confidence to try someone new if I saw them teach first.

I'd love to watch some lessons of people jumping 1.15+ as the next step up for us, but many venues and/ or trainers are not keen on 'outside' spectators at all.

Completely agree with this. I remember someone I occasionally rode with training wise going to a Lucinda Green clinic to watch (yes I know she divides opinion, just an example here) and was given a headset so could actually listen to the instruction as the clinic of differing heights/abilities went on, which sounds like an idea that could and perhaps should be developed! It was stupidly cheap price wise too I seem to remember.

The other thing with clinics and training opportunities, why limit opportunities like this just to BHS APCs? I'd love to attend a day like that (well maybe don't need the stables bit) but can't! https://www.tickettailor.com/events/thebritishhorsesociety2/912897?

 

[toppedoff]

I do wish we did more spectator friendly clinics in this country.

I would much rather spend £50 and watching a number of groups- firstly I think you pick things up by osmosis and secondly it would give me confidence to try someone new if I saw them teach first.

I'd love to watch some lessons of people jumping 1.15+ as the next step up for us, but many venues and/ or trainers are not keen on 'outside' spectators at all.

im so grateful for my first yard letting me watch their lessons - from classical dressage to their vaulting, i remember all advice and advice that has clicked. ive been out of the saddle for ages now but if i was to ride around that time, then i wouldve booked lessons asap

 

[millitiger]

Right, who do we speak to, to make paying spectators more normal in this country?

I know it is very regular in the USA.

 

[SO1]

I wonder if people think they need to be a really good rider and have a top level event /sj/dressage horse aiming to compete at advanced level take part in these clinics.

I think sometimes people also use these sort of clincs to get a professional's opinion on the quality of their horse.

 

[Boulty]

I have a regular trainer for dressage/ biomechanics type stuff. She’s more classical leaning than competition dressage which suits me fine as not really aiming at competing. I also have polework lessons a few times a year with someone else and have started having the odd lesson on a simulator as well (would like to make that a more regular thing but it’s about an hour away)

I also have a trainer for TREC who organises competitions, runs judge’s training etc so basically is just about the best qualified person to train with in my area although I have had the odd lesson with other people at the top of that sport and there is one person in particular I’d love to have more sessions with but she’s not in an area I can easily get to very often.

I also do had a working equitation lesson recently by someone who competes at advanced level in that sport and am in the process of trying to book more sessions and hopefully planning to compete later this Summer as I’m happy if we could do a walk trot class that he’s probably already at a level where he’d do ok, just need to learn the actual rules and polish things.

Also went to watch one of Ben Atkinsons demos earlier in the year and felt I got a lot out of spectating in terms of having some exercises to play with to try and do a bit more work at liberty. Would love to take the pony if he did any more next year specifically to work on liberty / trick type stuff. Again never going to do anything competitive with this, just do it for my own amusement.

Going to be honest that I probably wouldn’t actively seek out a session with a Pro outside of a discipline that I’m actively interested in / I’m not sure that I’m working at a level that would be worth their input in all honesty. I have had some really good one off lessons in the past (not by anyone famous though) but have also had some totally disastrous ones. As I’m into some fairly niche, random stuff I feel it makes sense to go to some lessons & clinics specifically for that as sometimes half of the lesson is actually explaining the rules and how they work & geeking out about that. I’m liking doing group lessons atm as it’s teaching the Fuzzball about working around others without gluing himself to them.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Right, who do we speak to, to make paying spectators more normal in this country?

I know it is very regular in the USA.

I did a Tik Maynard camp a few years ago and there were paying spectators. As far as I recall, no real issue was made of it. I am not aware that any of the riders were bothered by it. I think spectators found it very interesting/useful. The US based trainers coming over here for clinics always have paying spectators. Brannaman spent more time explaining things to spectators than he did talking to riders! On the other hand, Joe Midgley comes to our yard every few weeks for 1:1 lessons. A few people have asked the riders if they are happy to be watched and they generally say no. Which is a real shame as everyone brings him a different issue, so you see such a range when you watch. So maybe the key is - don't ask! Just make it clear on booking that there are spectators. So riders don't overthink it.

 

[LEC]

I do wish we did more spectator friendly clinics in this country.

I would much rather spend £50 and watching a number of groups- firstly I think you pick things up by osmosis and secondly it would give me confidence to try someone new if I saw them teach first.

I'd love to watch some lessons of people jumping 1.15+ as the next step up for us, but many venues and/ or trainers are not keen on 'outside' spectators at all.

I go and do it for free - most very good coaches will let you go along. I just make sure I go on a good day with good riders. The only top coach who didn’t like it was John Leddingham (he had his reasons and that’s fine) but the rest have been very willing. I just contact who it is first and ask. If you say you want to improve and learn then it’s rarely an issue. Also, making yourself useful to the coach is a good idea. I stand in the middle, get refreshments, will pick up poles, move jumps and clean the arena. I would never ask the rider in a clinic setting like that about watching. If you want a good starting point, I always start with coach educators as they are invested in education. Loads about and very good. Watching lessons on YouTube is an easy way as well.

 

[spacefaer]

Continuing my post #41 above, I have had two clinic sessions with the same trainer approx a year apart.
First one was absolutely brilliant and very impressive. I've had a lot of training over the decades and am a qualified instructor myself so I know how hard it is when presented with three horses in a group, all of whom are technically similar but were vastly different in terms of ability, experience and confidence. This chap taught all three of us completely separately, simultaneously and we all ended up jumping the same course very happily.
Fast forward to a year later, took two green horses to a clinic he was running. Four in the group - he taught the same exercise to both of my groups, with no consideration given to the differences in ability, experience or confidence for any of the partnerships. I was so disappointed as I'd had high expectations after the first time.

My point being, that I sang his praises after the first - but it may have been a one off, exceptional lesson and not truly representative of his ability as a trainer ...... But then so might the second have been, and he'd just had a bad day. If I'd only been to the second, I wouldn't be able to have said anything positive about him.
To be fair to him, from what I've heard, I think both sessions were exceptional. I would judge that he's very good, but possibly teaches too much and can get a bit lesson-blind

For those people who have a poor experience with a much hyped trainer ..... How do you know which of the above lessons you're going to get?

 

[Red-1]

Continuing my post #41 above, I have had two clinic sessions with the same trainer approx a year apart.
First one was absolutely brilliant and very impressive. I've had a lot of training over the decades and am a qualified instructor myself so I know how hard it is when presented with three horses in a group, all of whom are technically similar but were vastly different in terms of ability, experience and confidence. This chap taught all three of us completely separately, simultaneously and we all ended up jumping the same course very happily.
Fast forward to a year later, took two green horses to a clinic he was running. Four in the group - he taught the same exercise to both of my groups, with no consideration given to the differences in ability, experience or confidence for any of the partnerships. I was so disappointed as I'd had high expectations after the first time.

My point being, that I sang his praises after the first - but it may have been a one off, exceptional lesson and not truly representative of his ability as a trainer ...... But then so might the second have been, and he'd just had a bad day. If I'd only been to the second, I wouldn't be able to have said anything positive about him.
To be fair to him, from what I've heard, I think both sessions were exceptional. I would judge that he's very good, but possibly teaches too much and can get a bit lesson-blind

For those people who have a poor experience with a much hyped trainer ..... How do you know which of the above lessons you're going to get?

I find first lesson of the day is the best. The trainer is thinking, adapting and getting used to the venue.

For the following lessons, the equipment/route is set up and it is all too easy to teach the same lesson again.

 

[JFTDWS]

I don’t currently train with anyone because I’m working within my comfort zone without any real expectations of my horses other than making / keeping them pleasant and balanced / supple to ride. Technically I was at a training event last weekend, but as the training was mostly about not hitting your horse in the face with a sword / looking at the javelin target when lobbing it in that general direction, I’m not counting it in this context. I’m fairly selective about who I go to for actual horse training - I’d rather not train than use someone I’m not sure of.

In the past, I’ve had some very good one off lessons with 5* / GP / classical riders, and others which were a waste of time and effort. They’re always more of a risk than more training with your regular coach. From what I’ve seen on social media, Jonty does a lot of clinics in that general area, so he doesn’t have the novelty value of a visiting coach from abroad or a trainer who rarely runs open clinics.

I’ve also paid to spectate at a lot of clinics (classical dressage mostly) and ridden in front of an audience at a few. I’m not someone who is very comfortable riding in front of people but I accepted it as part and parcel of getting the coaching I wanted at that time, and it was a good thing to have done. It’s something I’d like to see more of in the UK - I think it would help to raise standards and reduce some of the lazy / careless coaching that sometimes happens in the privacy of a one-on-one / small group setting.

 

[Red-1]

I have been thinking about this, as I have been hiring rather than having lessons, in the main, with BH. I think serious training with serious trainers worked well for me when I was younger and more ambitious. I'm meaning the competition ones.

Now, I am older with a heavier, laid back horse and I have found that most competition trainers want to push me like I used to be pushed. It simply isn't appropriate for me, right now. I prefer to take it slower and enjoy. Lower stakes. The last 'serious' trainer I had, I ditched this time last year, when she was disparaging and rude about me on a lesson. I really didn't feel it was true, let alone deserved. I also feel it would have been to the detriment of the horse. It was certainly a poor business move, as I was perfectly prepared to have a lesson a week and am no longer a client. In fact, there were 2 of us on The Lesson of Doom, and we would both have been regular clients, and we both sacked her!

Since then, I have a team of 3 trainers, maybe a lesson once every 3 weeks, and they all are happy to work at what I want to work at, and celebrate simply having a nice time, with some improvement. They also know that I like videos! Hiring places is nice, low risk, fun and usually involves a picnic. The only downside is no video!