Do small puppies remain small?

Patchworkpony

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If a puppy is the smallest of the litter when born will it always remain a small dog or will it grow and catch up as an adult? Your experiences please.
 

Bellasophia

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I don't think it always equates that small pups remain the smallest of the litter.The breeder will often make an extra effort to place the tiny one on the front nipple so it feeds well,sometimes even do top ups to get the little one off to a better start.
If the pup in question doesn't have a physical health issue,then he should catch up with his siblings in fast time.
 

Alec Swan

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In my experience, and whilst they will to a degree 'catch-up', they're unlikely to reach the same stamp as they're siblings.

HOWEVER, what it is about the undersized I don't know, but they are often those which are the most nimble, the most athletic and are generally and mentally, quite 'quick'.

Many years ago a genius of a sheepdog man advised me to pick the smallest and the ugliest pup, and in over 30 years, his advice has stood me in good stead.

Out of interest, why do you ask? It's a topic of interest to me.

Alec.
 

Impu1sion

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I'm collecting my puppy tomorrow, he is the smallest in the litter, but the bossiest! Interesting thread for me, thanks :)
 

Patchworkpony

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In my experience, and whilst they will to a degree 'catch-up', they're unlikely to reach the same stamp as they're siblings.

HOWEVER, what it is about the undersized I don't know, but they are often those which are the most nimble, the most athletic and are generally and mentally, quite 'quick'.

Many years ago a genius of a sheepdog man advised me to pick the smallest and the ugliest pup, and in over 30 years, his advice has stood me in good stead.

Out of interest, why do you ask? It's a topic of interest to me.

Alec.[/QUOTE

Possibly looking at some working cocker pups but don't want anything too big. The smallest is the colour I prefer and to my mind would suit me best on size so I wouldn't want it to grow too much. As you are one of the best experts to my mind on this forum could you please answer me a question? I love spaniels but do now consider springers to be too mad for me these days, don't want a show cocker and thought that a working cocker would be ideal as I have land and plenty of time to train it. However today two people have told me they are a mad breed and worse than springers. My question Alec is whether this true and whether they need a huge amount of work and exercise to keep them calm or does it depend very much on each individual dog? I am now in a dilemma as to whether I should get this puppy which I haven't yet seen in the flesh. Sorry one more question - are the working spaniel pups only normally for sale during the summer when the bitches aren't out working on shoots?
 

Thistle

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I'm no expert but have a springer pup and know many people in gun dog community who have both cockers and springers. I have always been told that Springers work for you, cockers are self employed. A Labrador is born half trained and a Spaniel will die half trained. Generally I think Cockers are supposed to be much more hard work than Springers
 

Nicnac

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I'm no expert but have a springer pup and know many people in gun dog community who have both cockers and springers. I have always been told that Springers work for you, cockers are self employed. A Labrador is born half trained and a Spaniel will die half trained. Generally I think Cockers are supposed to be much more hard work than Springers

And Flatcoats are born and die impossible to train ;):D
 

Alec Swan

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Has Jack been castrated, and if he was, at what age was the op carried out?

Alec.

He was done at 5 months on the vets advice due to a retained testicle causing issues so early really.

When any male is castrated, pre-puberty, then the result is often that their 'natural' production of testosterone is stopped (or doesn't even start), and the result is that their energies are directed towards skeletal growth. At least, that's what I think! The eunuchs of days gone by often reached a height of seven feet, and look at how many early-cut geldings will reach a height of 17 hands and they come from parents who may be no more that 16 hands.

Far be it from me to contradict the veterinary advice which you were given, but I've known of several grown and active and healthy dogs which were monorchid and with one testicle 'retained inside', and none that I knew of came to any harm! I've also had puppies which at 5 months didn't have both testicles down, but which eventually lowered the second! Sometimes some veterinary advice is bullocks! :)

Alec.
 

Alec Swan

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…….. I love spaniels but do now consider springers to be too mad for me these days, don't want a show cocker and thought that a working cocker would be ideal as I have land and plenty of time to train it. However today two people have told me they are a mad breed and worse than springers. My question Alec is whether this true and whether they need a huge amount of work and exercise to keep them calm or does it depend very much on each individual dog? I am now in a dilemma as to whether I should get this puppy which I haven't yet seen in the flesh. Sorry one more question - are the working spaniel pups only normally for sale during the summer when the bitches aren't out working on shoots?

There are no hard and fast rules regarding cockers, in my view. 40 years ago, just about every cocker which I saw or owned, was bloody hard work! 'Then', they all needed an early start in the discipline department! 'Now', I've changed my view! Somehow they seem to be far more sensitive to correction and a more sensitive approach needs to be made. From a work perspective, they need to be allowed their heads, they need to be allowed to be 'children' if you like. Correction for cockers needs to be delayed until they are confident and capable of accepting it. That may be 3 months or 9 months, or even not at all.

A couple of years back, I bred a litter of puppies by the Field Trial Championship winner of 2013, who is a serious hard case(!) and out of a lovely confident and Ch x Ch bred bitch. The puppies had nothing restrictive done with them and were allowed virtually a free rein. I'm in touch with most, some in pet homes, and for reasons that I'm not sure, but they're all a bit diffident and shy.

Cockers tend to be quite intense. They also tend to 'own' their owners and can be easily offended. It all depends upon the individual animal, regardless of what the breed aficionados may tell you!

Thinking about it, there's a fine line, and the time to start with a bit of discipline, is when they decide that they know best, and they don't want to listen to you. Within a litter of 6 puppies, you may well find that each and every one of them is totally different! I love my Cockers, but they aren't everyone's dogs.

Alec.
 

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My old lab was the runt of the litter, he was very small but he turned out to be the biggest (and best imo) by far. He was a very laid back dog (even for a lab) so I guess he just got pushed out by his siblings. My sister had a bitch from the same litter and she was a big puppy but she was always much more gung ho right from the start.
 

twiggy2

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the smallest as a pup does not always stay the smallest
working cockers are far more full on and often a big pig headed compared to springers.

Alec many many dogs with retained testicles develop cancer at the site of the testicles-they are designed to be outside the body at a cooler temperature so being retained can make them do funny things, they can also create a torsion and adhese to other organs
 

Patchworkpony

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There are no hard and fast rules regarding cockers, in my view. 40 years ago, just about every cocker which I saw or owned, was bloody hard work! 'Then', they all needed an early start in the discipline department! 'Now', I've changed my view! Somehow they seem to be far more sensitive to correction and a more sensitive approach needs to be made. From a work perspective, they need to be allowed their heads, they need to be allowed to be 'children' if you like. Correction for cockers needs to be delayed until they are confident and capable of accepting it. That may be 3 months or 9 months, or even not at all.

A couple of years back, I bred a litter of puppies by the Field Trial Championship winner of 2013, who is a serious hard case(!) and out of a lovely confident and Ch x Ch bred bitch. The puppies had nothing restrictive done with them and were allowed virtually a free rein. I'm in touch with most, some in pet homes, and for reasons that I'm not sure, but they're all a bit diffident and shy.

Cockers tend to be quite intense. They also tend to 'own' their owners and can be easily offended. It all depends upon the individual animal, regardless of what the breed aficionados may tell you!

Thinking about it, there's a fine line, and the time to start with a bit of discipline, is when they decide that they know best, and they don't want to listen to you. Within a litter of 6 puppies, you may well find that each and every one of them is totally different! I love my Cockers, but they aren't everyone's dogs.

Alec.

Thank you Alec you have helped me make my mind up.
 

Alec Swan

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Thank you Alec you have helped me make my mind up.

AAHH, but in which direction? :) I'm hoping that I haven't put you off. The best rewards are generally achieved from the most difficult dogs, and Cockers can be a bit tricky! A bit perverse, I'll grant you, but it's to do with the challenge of getting inside a dog's head, and having the dog 'wanting' to comply. The better that we achieve that, so the happier the dog that we have.

Alec.
 

Patchworkpony

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AAHH, but in which direction? :) I'm hoping that I haven't put you off. The best rewards are generally achieved from the most difficult dogs, and Cockers can be a bit tricky! A bit perverse, I'll grant you, but it's to do with the challenge of getting inside a dog's head, and having the dog 'wanting' to comply. The better that we achieve that, so the happier the dog that we have.

Alec.

You've certainly got me thinking and I need to take stock instead of rushing in headlong. The question is am I the right owner for a cocker? I suspect they are the canine equivalent to a fell pony and I reluctantly recognise I am too old to deal with that breed any more!
 

Chiffy

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And Flatcoats are born and die impossible to train ;):D

Oh Nicnac, why are you always so rude about flatcoats? I have had them for 35 years and every one has been brilliant and easy to train. Full of fun,enthusiasm and willingness to please.
n my experience at gundog classes alot easier and less hyper than any spaniel.
Sorry, I dont often get on my high horse, but you touched a nerve there about my favourite breed!
 

twiggy2

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Oh Nicnac, why are you always so rude about flatcoats? I have had them for 35 years and every one has been brilliant and easy to train. Full of fun,enthusiasm and willingness to please.
n my experience at gundog classes alot easier and less hyper than any spaniel.
Sorry, I dont often get on my high horse, but you touched a nerve there about my favourite breed!

I have never owned one but know a family who usually have somewhere between 7-10 at any given time (not including pups) the have all been a bit crazy but as well trained as the owners want them to be, very people focused, great with other dogs, all off lead on the yard under supervision and non horse chasers. Not really my cup of tea though
 

Alec Swan

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OMG then I'm certainly too old!

^^^^ :)

As a compromise, you could always approach one of the rescue outfits and see if you can find one which if not old and doddery, at least displays some level of sanity! Though perhaps a bit thin on the ground, they do exist!

Alec.

Ets, if you google Gundog Training Forum, there's someone on there who operates a Cocker Rescue. My opinion of the person concerned isn't really printable, but you may find that if you 'rescue' from a 'Rescue', if you see what I mean, that you may find what you're looking for. Good luck! a.
 
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Alec Swan

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Oh Nicnac, why are you always so rude about flatcoats? I have had them for 35 years and every one has been brilliant and easy to train. Full of fun,enthusiasm and willingness to please.
n my experience at gundog classes alot easier and less hyper than any spaniel.
Sorry, I dont often get on my high horse, but you touched a nerve there about my favourite breed!

I took Nicnac's post to be rather t-i-c, but that said, as a breed, they can be a little less than amenable. Whether that's to do with their owners, or the dogs themselves, I've yet to work out! Mostly, when it comes to working dogs, the more recalcitrant breeds tend to lose favour, and the more amenable tend to increase in numbers. It's logical when you think about it! They are, I'll grant you, handsome animals, but from what I've seen of them, there are more suitable breeds about which are easier trained and mostly make a better job of their work.

Alec.
 

Patchworkpony

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^^^^ :)

As a compromise, you could always approach one of the rescue outfits and see if you can find one which if not old and doddery, at least displays some level of sanity! Though perhaps a bit thin on the ground, they do exist!

Alec.

Ets, if you google Gundog Training Forum, there's someone on there who operates a Cocker Rescue. My opinion of the person concerned isn't really printable, but you may find that if you 'rescue' from a 'Rescue', if you see what I mean, that you may find what you're looking for. Good luck! a.

Thanks so much Alec you have been really helpful. Out of interest why do these dogs end up in rescue - is it because people can't handle them or that they are gun shy etc.?
 

Alec Swan

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…….. . Out of interest why do these dogs end up in rescue - is it because people can't handle them or that they are gun shy etc.?

An interesting question and one with answers which will be as varied as the dogs themselves! NOT always, but mostly, dogs end up in rescue centres for the simple reason that they've got the better of their owners. How many posts do we read on here where some have said that they were the fourth home for the animal? With so many previous influences, is it any wonder that the poor creature's confused and totally un-accepting of human contact, and (God forbid!) discipline?

To answer your question as to why the poor wee things end up as they do with the well intentioned but often ill-advised; The answer is all so often, as you suggest, that the dog is just too much dog for the owner. Another possible point for you to consider; If the dog which you view has a full tail (accepting that it was bred for work), then I'd leave it where it is. If the tail's been docked, then you may rest assured that it was done legally and that the intent behind the breeding was sound, and with that in mind, you 'MAY' have a dog which is willing to accept boundaries and discipline.

If you really would like a work-bred Cocker, don't give up, there are plenty which are as amenable as you could wish for, it's just that 'selection' is the key!

Alec.
 

Patchworkpony

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If you really would like a work-bred Cocker, don't give up, there are plenty which are as amenable as you could wish for, it's just that 'selection' is the key!

Alec.

I would REALLY like a working cocker but I don't want a mad badly behaved animal. So how does one find the right one because most breeders will tell you what you want to hear.
 

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Got two working cockers. The bitch we chose 11 years ago was the smallest of the litter and she's still pretty small (approx 10kg), compared to our dog who is 15kg but a completely different build. As they are bred for working ability & temperament rather than appearance they do seem to come in all shapes and sizes. As long as they are sound & fit I don't think it really matters what they look like.

They are mostly pets but do dabble in obedience and agility. Walked off lead for 1-2 hours a day, they don't need endless exercise and have good off switches. They do need their little brains working - both are very clever and driven, love learning stupid tricks e.g. beg, shut the door etc, and I've done basic gundog training with them. They are a bit mad (that's a given with spaniels - they are endlessly enthusiastic and if you don't like that then I wouldn't get one!!!) but are not badly behaved in the slightest - don't run off, social with dogs and people, take them anywhere, do anything with them just happy, busy little dogs!!

TBH our dog is 'crazier' than our bitch - he is higher energy, more demanding and would get obsessive if he wasn't worked & exercised enough, but we knew that when we chose him - he was a toerag of a pup. I think most breeders will be able to tell you the basic temps of the pups and could advise you on aa easier pup if that's what you want.

Spaniels are great :D

2014-12-19152401_zps02502181.jpg
 

H_A_C

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This is my 9 week old pup Beau I knew mum and dad and the breeder is a friend and we chose him to be my agility dog so he is driven and brave. He is toilet trained in a week we can do sit/down. Settled to his crate brilliantly I'm so pleased with him only issue is his really sharp teeth!!

 
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