Do the Kennel Club police breeders? And are they a marketing tool for the greedy?

Thank you for your comments. Cavecavem's point about German registration sounds a fantastic idea that perhaps our kcal should adopt. Sorry on new tablet punter and still learning to use it :( it may go through the window shortly ...
 
Archiesmummy, the scary thing is, that's just one breed club, not a kennel club encompassing all breeds. They also run a DNA database to help identify dogs and also identify potential health problems, I registered my young dog to it this year when I had his hips and elbows done, it was pricey compared to having it done in the UK but I thought it was worth doing and it helps fight fraud - he is the dog that his pedigree and microchip number says he is, he was born to the parents named on his pedigree and his hips and elbow x-rays and results belong to him and no other dog.
 
CaveCanem said:
Archiesmummy, the scary thing is, that's just one breed club, not a kennel club encompassing all breeds. They also run a DNA database to help identify dogs and also identify potential health problems, I registered my young dog to it this year when I had his hips and elbows done, it was pricey compared to having it done in the UK but I thought it was worth doing and it helps fight fraud - he is the dog that his pedigree and microchip number says he is, he was born to the parents named on his pedigree and his hips and elbow x-rays and results belong to him and no other dog.
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CC, you clearly know what you are talking about and sound as if you might have some clout, could you not approach our KC with a view to them adopting the same practices. I so wish I more knowledge of things, there are so many things I see wrong my mind is all over the place. I just don't know where to start with these things. I tried several weeks ago to draw attention to overseas horses being cared for by a little known charity but fell at the first hurdle. I tried to contact several well known celebrities to highlight the plight and not one response. Just didn't know what to do next.
 
Some GSD breeders and breed clubs have been trying to get the KC to take on board some of these ideas for years . It was a group known as the GSD Improvement Foundation which persuaded the kc to introduce hip scoring, and some GSD shows are now held in the uk where dogs do have to be health tested and show working ability before they can win top awards , but as has already been said I very much doubt the kc would change so dramatically as it would affect their income!
 
blackcob said:
There's a breeder of 'rare chocolate miniature jacks' at £450 each about a mile down the road from me, MM, wonder if it's the same one? They are all bug eyed, bow legged and extremely reticent for JRTs.
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Wonder if this is the breeder i told the Kc about was breeding jack russells to other small yappie breeds and passing them off as jacks. Dog poo everywhere I'd gone into buy out a bitch in whelp and ended up taking the stud along with a load of fake papers. KC still did nothing!

If there was an accolade that I would add it would be a service to the Breed Clubs badge, we are so short staffed these days and I know my clubs not the only one that is suffering from a lack of volunteers prepared to sacrifice their own hobbies to give a little back to their breed. Heartbreaking when a national club cannot reach a quorum at an AGM or have enough people to vote at a normal committee meeting :( I'd definitely bin the number of litters accolade experience isn't always down to churning out litters!! :mad:

If anyone out there is thinking someone else will do it well the sad fact is no they won't :( We all need people to step up!!! So don't put it off get on with it!:D
 
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The KC makes decisions by posing this simple question: Will this action increase or decrease the number of registrations we can sell?

If taking action (e.g curbs on irresponsible breeders) will lower the number of registrations , they won't do it. If their inaction means that the public will lose confidence in KC registrations and buy mongrels, they will take action.

Witness the popularity of deliberate cross breeds (Labradoodles, et alia) and the KC's belated action to improve breed standards.

The original Jack Russell terrier was never a breed. Parson J Russell, a Devonshire clergyman who also hunted, used any dogs that would work to his high standards in his breeding programme. They never were a breed until the KC realised there was money in making them one and selling registrations.

Money and power. I repeat, the KC is nothing to do with dogs. If dogs, as a species, were eradicted tomorrow, they would find something else.
 
Archiesmummy said:
CC, you clearly know what you are talking about and sound as if you might have some clout, could you not approach our KC with a view to them adopting the same practices. I so wish I more knowledge of things, there are so many things I see wrong my mind is all over the place. I just don't know where to start with these things. I tried several weeks ago to draw attention to overseas horses being cared for by a little known charity but fell at the first hurdle. I tried to contact several well known celebrities to highlight the plight and not one response. Just didn't know what to do next.
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Like MM says, the progressive GSD fraternity in the UK has been lobbying the KC for years and it was the GSD fraternity and the late Dr Malcolm Willis who helped pioneer the hip scoring scheme in the UK.
The KC has criticised the GSD fraternity, removed CCs, but it is the progressive GSD fraternity, at their own expense, which has been proactive and self-regulating in promoting health tests. But that wasn't mentioned in Jemima Harrisons little documentary, so it cannot be true, can it? :rolleyes: my mother was hip scoring her dogs in the 1970s.

A lot of people now go outside the KC and hold shows in the UK under international rules, they are called 'regional events' where judges hand out gradings as opposed to CCs and only dogs with working qualifications (they must pass a short part of a working routine in order to make in into their class) and good health test results can attain the top honours. All the dogs are microchipped scanned and their paperwork checked upon entry to the show.
The KC is opposed to things like offlead gaiting (where the dog runs offlead beside the handler) gun tests and courage tests at their shows, although they happen in Europe on a daily basis without mass dogfights and maulings.

A small step, but we would like to develop a dual registry/our own pedigrees similar to that in Germany, which will not replace traditional pedigrees but will, unlike current KC and IKC pedigrees, stay with the dog for life (if I sold my dog tomorrow, a new pedigree would be issued to the new owner and the one with his hip and elbow stamps on it would be lost) and that all their health and working tests and those of their ansesctors can be recorded on them.
 
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NeverSeenSanta said:
when im looking for a dog its isds registration that matters to me, not kc - ive no time for them at all.
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The KC attempted to take over the International Sheep Dog Society.

Then the secretary of the ISDS pointed out that they don't actually have any sheep. I had that from the secretary at the time!:D
 
CaveCanem said:
Like MM says, the progressive GSD fraternity in the UK has been lobbying the KC for years and it was the GSD fraternity and the late Dr Malcolm Willis who helped pioneer the hip scoring scheme in the UK.
The KC has criticised the GSD fraternity, removed CCs, but it is the progressive GSD fraternity, at their own expense, which has been proactive and self-regulating in promoting health tests. But that wasn't mentioned in Jemima Harrisons little documentary, so it cannot be true, can it? :rolleyes: my mother was hip scoring her dogs in the 1970s.

A lot of people now go outside the KC and hold shows in the UK under international rules, they are called 'regional events' where judges hand out gradings as opposed to CCs and only dogs with working qualifications (they must pass a short part of a working routine in order to make in into their class) and good health test results can attain the top honours. All the dogs are microchipped scanned and their paperwork checked upon entry to the show.
The KC is opposed to things like offlead gaiting (where the dog runs offlead beside the handler) gun tests and courage tests at their shows, although they happen in Europe on a daily basis without mass dogfights and maulings.

A small step, but we would like to develop a dual registry/our own pedigrees similar to that in Germany, which will not replace traditional pedigrees but will, unlike current KC and IKC pedigrees, stay with the dog for life (if I sold my dog tomorrow, a new pedigree would be issued to the new owner and the one with his hip and elbow stamps on it would be lost) and that all their health and working tests and those of their ansesctors can be recorded on them.
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So, what DID happen to Malcolm Willis??
 
Noels_Star_Chaser said:
Wonder if this is the breeder i told the Kc about was breeding jack russells to other small yappie breeds and passing them off as jacks. Dog poo everywhere I'd gone into buy out a bitch in whelp and ended up taking the stud along with a load of fake papers. KC still did nothing!
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Why would the KC do anything about unrecognised breeds? This should have been reported to environmental health, trading standards & the taxman.

As for a break from breeding, the reputable breeders pretty much across the board have cut down but the reverse any bitch into a dog lot have not :(
 
Dry Rot, as mentioned, he passed away about two years ago after a long illness but even in his later years was still very supportive and was able to attend some of the early regional events.

He will always be especially well thought of in our house as he gave our old girl a reserve CC out of a junior class, which was very rare in those days, and noted in his critique that she would have got the ticket had she been older.

Despite his standing he was nearly always available on the telephone to talk to people about health issues and was nearly always proved right on whether a worrying set of hips would come good, whether damage had been caused by accident or was hereditary etc etc etc.

His books on the breed's genetics are a must have for any German Shepherd enthusiast and he is a great loss to all the breeds he was involved in.
 
MurphysMinder said:
He sadly passed away dry rot, a great loss to our breed and the dog world in general.
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I'm afraid I was trouble making, as usual. Malcolm was kicked out of the KC as far as I am aware for being a nuisance -- in all the right ways. But he might have been reinstated.

I had some correspondence with him and we agreed on many things. If I recall correctly, one of the things he protested about was the members not being allowed to scrutinise the KC accounts!!! Now I wonder why they are not keen on members doing that?:D
 
Over the weekend I heard of a case of the Kennel Club having developed teeth(and about time too so say all of us) A breeder who has been breeding lots of litters supposedly by various members of her family has found that the KC now judges if a breeders licence is needed by the ADDRESS used.AND has frozen all applications for reg from her ,transfers of puppies from her and apparently from anyone trying to reg puppies by her stud dogs.That is until she can produce a breeders licence.Hmm,progress.
We now need to nag hard about designer mongrel litters as well,at the moment they cannot be monitored.
 
s4sugar said:
Why would the KC do anything about unrecognised breeds? This should have been reported to environmental health, trading standards & the taxman.

As for a break from breeding, the reputable breeders pretty much across the board have cut down but the reverse any bitch into a dog lot have not :(
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Because the breed they were registering the dogs as WERE recognised pedigree breeds. it was the pedigree that I was making the complaint about not just the welfare. If a breeder is actively producing cross breeds of two toy breeds but calling them pedigree jack russells then the KC should have stepped in removed the pedigrees and reprimanded the breeder. Not just passed the buck on to another organisation.
 
EAST KENT said:
Over the weekend I heard of a case of the Kennel Club having developed teeth(and about time too so say all of us) A breeder who has been breeding lots of litters supposedly by various members of her family has found that the KC now judges if a breeders licence is needed by the ADDRESS used.AND has frozen all applications for reg from her ,transfers of puppies from her and apparently from anyone trying to reg puppies by her stud dogs.That is until she can produce a breeders licence.Hmm,progress.
We now need to nag hard about designer mongrel litters as well,at the moment they cannot be monitored.
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which breed?
 
Noels_Star_Chaser said:
Because the breed they were registering the dogs as WERE recognised pedigree breeds. it was the pedigree that I was making the complaint about not just the welfare. If a breeder is actively producing cross breeds of two toy breeds but calling them pedigree jack russells then the KC should have stepped in removed the pedigrees and reprimanded the breeder. Not just passed the buck on to another organisation.
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Unless they were Parson Jack Russells she couldn't register to the KC, Jack Russells - the small, short-legged type - are not a recognised breed.
 
They were as far as I am aware. The only reason I know they were being registered at all with the KC which surprised me at the time was because they were filling out the papers whilst I was there. Including the registration of their affix. It was mixed bag of breeds some being registered as jacks and others under Chihuahua's. Puppy farmers hoodwinking the public for high prices for handbag fashion items.

Now if they had been registering them under the Activity Register I wouldn't have batted an eye lash and just reported to the RSCPA and the dog warden for conditions but they were going a step further. The pedigree papers I collected for the dogs I took away with me were photocopied fakes brought off ebay used several times.
 
Noels_Star_Chaser said:
The pedigree papers I collected for the dogs I took away with me were photocopied fakes brought off ebay used several times.
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Well they would have to have been for the Jack Russells. As mentioned, unless, as you say, they were being registered to the activity register, it is impossible to have legitimate KC papers for Jack Russells (apart from Parson Russells) because they are not a breed that the KC recognises.

Like the poster on here who was expecting 'KC papers' for a Bichon x Cavalier.
 
Pedigree fiddling could be dealt an almighty blow if the KC insisted on a DNA sample (a hair clipping is, I believe, sufficient) and chip number with the application to register. There is no need to go to the trouble of doing a DNA profile as all it needs is the threat of detection.

I was called in as a witness to large scale pedigree fiddling in the USA. All the breeder's dogs were de-registered, also their ancestors and descendants. So many dogs were involved, and this being in the USA, the breeder simply set up his own registry!:eek:

But I would question whether registration is all that important anyway. The KC declares that it can only publish what the breeder tells them with no guarantees. And I have yet to see CocaCola publish the formula for their product on the side of the bottle. Would be purchasers are well advise to go with a breeder with a good reputation and forget about the pieces of paper. I could tell the story where a champion field trial stake winner sired pups to a bitch owned by a KC member. The dog was later proved to be infertile! The virgin birth?:D Or did they just put another dog over the bitch when they got home to improve the chances of a large litter?
 
Dry Rot said:
Pedigree fiddling could be dealt an almighty blow if the KC insisted on a DNA sample (a hair clipping is, I believe, sufficient) and chip number with the application to register.
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I got a little plastic pin thing in the pack for the SV (the German registry) and you prick the dog's gum with it and smear the blood on a piece of paper and pop it in a sealed plastic bag. Helped that he had been knocked out for the hip and elbow x-rays :p so the x-rays, filled in papers, microchip number and DNA all goes in one sealed bag.

I really like having recorded/registered pedigrees, for instance, you can take your dog right back to the first registered GSD in the online breed book. Also helps identify problem lines, as previously mentioned.

My older dog's breeder actually had his dog stolen and used to cover a female. Also heard of whole litters being stolen. Swapping x-rays of dysplastic dogs for clean dogs, dyeing dogs, all sorts. There are dodgy people out there who will flout the system but you will find that in any walk of life!
 
CaveCanem said:
Well they would have to have been for the Jack Russells. As mentioned, unless, as you say, they were being registered to the activity register, it is impossible to have legitimate KC papers for Jack Russells (apart from Parson Russells) because they are not a breed that the KC recognises.

Like the poster on here who was expecting 'KC papers' for a Bichon x Cavalier.
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The fake photocopied papers were for the gundog breed I was collecting, bitch in whelp to potential 'unknown' and a stud they wanted shot of after I turned up. I saw at least 9 different breeds from toy to the gundogs whilst I was in their compound :(
 
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