Do we amateurs overcomplicate things for ourselves? :p

milliepops

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Please take this in the manner it is intended, which is a light hearted exploration rather than intending to bash anyone! :p

Just thought I better get that in at the start!

Something I've been pondering over for a while now but came a bit sharper into focus yesterday.

I went on a BD-organised yard visit to Gareth Hughes which was wonderful, really inspirational. Gareth very clearly explained their approach from the young horse (a recently backed 3yo did a great demo, not perfection but a clear system in place) up to GP. We were invited to ask questions all the way through which Gareth answered candidly and in detail.

Some of the questions raised reminded me of the kinds of things we discuss here, always coming from a point of concern for the horse's welfare etc - it's all from a good place but I just wondered whether we actually make life harder for ourselves sometimes? I'll give some examples - if anyone was there, again this is not pointing the finger but cogitating on a theory!

the 3yo was brought out wearing a flash noseband and one of the attendees asked why it wasn't in a cavesson. Gareth answered to the effect that it is to develop a good habit - that the horse learns from day one to accept the contact and keep a quiet mouth - not so they could strap it's mouth shut, but that it never dawns on the horse to open its mouth and resist. How many of us would press on (or feel we should do) in the cavesson because it's the "right thing" or more horse friendly? When in fact we are setting up a problem, rather than shutting down the possibility of a problem?


Someone asked about variety in their work - do they do jumping or go to the gallops, and he said no, because they need to be strong for their day job which is dressage, so jumping doesn't actually help them with that. Dressage training makes them strong for dressage, so that's what they need to do. They hack and go in the fields etc... not just drilled in the school :p but they don't need extracurricular stuff ;)
Do others on here feel pressured to add different stuff in, just so we can tick the box? (I don't mean doing things for fun, but for example there was a time when I would have taken a horse on a fun ride because I thought it was good for them - I wouldn't now because it's not helping the training I want to do. Likewise I once thought I should teach Kira to jump, but I've made my peace with that because I've realised she doesn't need to do it, it doesn't help her so we don't do it).

Dunno, would appreciate other people's viewpoints, I realise I'm coming at this from (now) a fairly single minded (and single discipline) amateur perspective but I suspect most of the other people who were there are similar, so it was interesting to have these questions raised... and the answers seemed so obvious that I wondered why sometimes we try to do the right thing but actually make a rod for our own back? :)
 

ljohnsonsj

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I agree. Sometimes stuff can't be done textbook, because horses don't read books.

My 4yo wears a flash and a martingale. He has done from early days. Flash for similar reasons, it is very loose but it is there. A martingale as when he used to have a baby moment, his bum went under him and he shot off. When he didn't have a martingale it was scary for both of us. Scary for him as he could throw his head up beyond seeing where he was going, scary for me as all control felt to go out the window. The answer, a martingale. When he used to do it (Grown out of it now) The martingale and I would stay still and made it feel like he stayed all in one spot, had a moment and regained his head.

I don't think its so much that people are concerned about welfare, I feel people are more concerned about stuff being 'wrong.' Some people see a martingale or a flash on a 4yo and instantly jump the gun to assume its been rushed and produced incorrectly when sometimes horses just aren't as simple as we'd hope!
 

DabDab

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Do we over complicate things as amateurs? Yes, undoubtedly.
Do we often also have horses that no professional would entertain? Yes.
 

ihatework

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I think a horse that is being produced for a top flight professional discipline is a very different animal to one being produced as a decent amateurs competition horse. Therefore the production of said animal will be different.
So yes, while I agree many amateurs over think things, I think it is more to do with trying to optimise the performance of the animal they have at that point in time. Pros have a system but most amateurs don't have enough horses, or knowledge, to create a system that works for them routinely.
 

milliepops

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Do we often also have horses that no professional would entertain? Yes.

Oh yes, definitely! Plus for the most part they are starting with raw material rather than something that someone else has already trained... though yesterday we did see two older horses that had arrived at the yard with a good degree of knowledge and also some issues which had to be untangled before they could progress.
 

Nugget La Poneh

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Yes. But I think it's now a culture thing to be disturbed/uncomfortable/offended on another's behalf and this gets transferred to animals with sometimes no rational reasoning.

I also think its sometimes that they see a professional doing something that they feel as if they would be chastised for doing if they did it. If the tack used didn't seem to be used excessively like a flash was done up the BHS way, instead of the overcranked method, then I'm okay.

I think that if the horse is amenable to it, than jumping can help just to break up the monotony and help the horse find it's feet. And for Nugz, it helped him work out flying changes :D I don't think anyone outside of the eventing world would expect a GP+ horse to be jumping a Foxhunter course regularly.
 

be positive

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I had a similar conversation this morning with my farrier and have just seen a response to a thread in tack room that ties in with this, a pro will expect a lot more from their horse when it is being ridden, they won't be concerned with some of the day to day details as they have a pro groom to see to that side of things, they will have a plan and while that plan may be flexible depending on the individual it will be to keep things simple so the horse can make progress within it's field, what it does in it's spare time is not relevant whereas most one horse owners want their horse to be a companion as much as a work horse so do try and do a variety of work, I think it is as much for their own benefit as that of the horse, it has 23 hours a day to itself so expecting about an hour of it's time to do as you want should be no hardship.

Horses generally like a black and white set of rules, they won't feel constricted by a correctly fitted drop/ flash, martingale if it has always been there and used as Gareth says as a prevention rather than cure, many many years ago I was using the school of an old school producer to start a pony, he came and watched then I was told off as I was not using a drop or martingale to prevent any issues arising, at the time I was young and followed his suggestion, I would not have dared to go back without doing so!! nowadays I use various kit but that day is at the back of my mind so I often pop something on if I feel it may be required before it becomes an issue.

The comment on the other thread was about a horse not walking properly in the school yet it strides out well when hacking on a long rein, no pro would have that problem, not many amateurs should either, because they will be able to pick it up onto a contact out hacking and transfer that to the school, unsurprisingly a few days of hacking on a contact has made all the difference.
 

HufflyPuffly

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Definitely overthink things :eek:, as has been said we generally do not have enough horses to make our own system which we know works, so the self doubt and constant re-assessment is a good thing and keeps us from going too far down the wrong path.

However the more I learn and the more research I read and study, I entirely disagree with how a lot of the professionals treat their horses. I cannot agree that using aspects of different disciplines is not beneficial, and there is clear evidence that working on a variety of surfaces is the ideal for limb strength (and I'm not sure the two surfaces of smooth small fields for grazing and the school are enough).

However maybe this goes back to amateurs and pro's tend to have very different animals on their hands. As I don't mean every horse should be an all-rounder :lol: but if you think of dressage as strength training and show-jumping gymnastic ability then you can see how one might help the other in the less than ideal horse for the chosen discipline.

For Topaz doing specific fitness work of galloping and gymnastic work of jumping is essential to get her stamina levels up, just doing dressage training will never give her the strength and stamina needed for the higher levels. She is not a warmblood, she is not finely built so finds building up fitness harder than more hot-blooded horses (my PBA could out canter her now despite being semi retired!). I would think that some of the heavier set warmbloods would also benefit from fitness work asides from strength work (dressage training).
 

milliepops

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yes I suppose there are 2 issues in one thread here,
the one, I can't find fault with though I know others would do - that of pre-empting an issue early in a horse's career... I reckon there are many many people who would come out in a rash at the thought of putting a 3yo in a flash noseband but the logic was clear - teach the horse - without force - that the contact is comfortable and not to be questioned, at the most impressionable time in their ridden life, and then you don't store up a problem to be fixed later on.

Would I have done the same thing when starting a horse - probably not if I hadn't thought about it like that... but I might do so now, or at least be quicker to act rather than get stuck in a puritanical "simple is best" way of thinking.

The other... Hmm. I also believe there is evidence that working on a range of surfaces is beneficial, it's what keeps me doing my VERY boring hacking!! The cross-training - it's a personal choice isn't it. For my 2 horses, one is too difficult (read, previously screwed up) and the other is too fragile.

Gareth made the point that his GP horses might enjoy jumping, but suppose one were to get injured, then he would have a hard time explaining to the owner that the horse was broken because they were trying to give it some "fun". Whereas if they break while doing their job, then that's unfortunate but unavoidable. Millie is not a GP horse and I don't have an owner, but I feel the same about her now :eek: She loves whizzing up the gallops... but I can't make myself risk her now.
 

madamebonnie

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I so desperately over analyse everything because I just want to get it right! Again with the single discipline in mind if I think
I get the basics right (I mean aim for perfection) I feel the next steps will slot into place. What I suppose isn't highlighted that it can be quite hard (for the amateur?) to get it RIGHT. I enjoy it but I am learning to be more forgiving of myself. I don't think it helped spending so long on a rehab plan to begin with, makes you extra analytical.

Re-flashes I am about to use a loose flash as we have a gaping mouth at the moment. All the relevant checks done and bit swapped. But its likely down to his new found power which I am asking him to use more of and accept a correct contact. He is just letting me know it's hard bl**dy work! I am hoping it will say please don't open your mouth when you find it hard and not allow a habit to ingrain. A few weeks/months I hope to have solved this problem...and moved to the next. Under trainers guidance of course!
 

Nugget La Poneh

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Gareth made the point that his GP horses might enjoy jumping, but suppose one were to get injured, then he would have a hard time explaining to the owner that the horse was broken because they were trying to give it some "fun". Whereas if they break while doing their job, then that's unfortunate but unavoidable. Millie is not a GP horse and I don't have an owner, but I feel the same about her now :eek: She loves whizzing up the gallops... but I can't make myself risk her now.

Accidents happen in the most benign of situations. If horses are turned out there is a risk, same with the gallops.

But I do see where he is coming from, and I know that I am incredibly lucky (so far) that nugz is very much an allrounder both in disciplines and terrain. There are very many horses that just can't handle more than one discipline and the switch it can require, and as competition horses can be known for their quirks it makes more financial sense to concentrate on the one thing.

I know of an advanced dressage horse that was set in his ways and couldn't tolerate doing anything outside of an arena. It didn't matter if it was a pro (although they did better and bullying him into submission). Learning to jump at the age of 13 was the making of him and his scores improved (I'm also thinking it helped the rider relationship with him too so she rode him differently) and he discovered that hacking was actually okay!!

I suppose ultimately if I had a competition horse that wasn't mine, I'd think differently :D
 

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Slightly off topic (but will admit to being the worst over-thinker ever).... but on the subject of varying work..... I was based at a livery yard that had excellent facilities and yet the hacking was rubbish.... which meant that my horses did a fair amount of work in the school.... I moved them a few months ago to a yard where the hacking is unbelievable! I now have access to miles and miles of hills and varied terrain off road and on. I rarely school either of the horses now and yet the youngster's flatwork has come on leaps and bounds since the move. I have a flat lesson once a fortnight and my instructor has commented on how much fitter she looks and she just seems to accept and find the work easier. We are having a crack at our first elementary next week. I can only put this down to the hill work. She is also quite an introverted type, who finds some of the big venues a bit mind boggling.... since hacking through fields with livestock, encountering a herd of sheep being herded up a road by 2 collies and a quad etc etc.... she just now seems to be all round braver and at the area festival last month took the atmosphere in her stride 9other than 1 spooky flower pot at k lol) Also as an aside she also does low level BS and I would consider her an all rounder with a dressage bias.... but def feel that the other things I do with her all compliment and help with the rest.
 

HufflyPuffly

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Ah yes it should only be done on the balance it is beneficial, I was taking the fun part out of it.

Cross-training in my mind can take many forms and fast work/ galloping is actually more use for stamina building for Topaz than jumping, the jumping is great for suppleness over her back.

In my mind, the idea that a professional (or anyone really :eek:) can say it's ok it broke doing the job it's 'suppose' to is probably what I object to, if a bit of variety might have meant it didn't break at all because it was using different muscle groups, placing strain on different areas (not the same tendons and ligaments all the time, like hocks in dressage horses) and maintaining a healthier hoof/leg/body function.

I think that is what I find upsetting about some of the systems out there, never mind the horse might be overall healthier, I cannot do XYZ because it is a 'discipline-specific' horse and I cannot justify if it hurt itself doing it...

Different kettle of fish to managing a horse with specific physical (or mental ;)) issues where you then make the call on what is appropriate for that individual.

Hope that makes sense :eek:...

Stopping problems before they start, not sure on this as it's not something I've considered... Skylla was backed in a cavesson and I do not use a martingale/ bungee/ side reins/ or really any other sort of thing. It may explain why she's taking longer to settle into a contact (though her build is what makes a longer/lower outline a struggle). Might ponder this some more as I have been debating a drop/flash to give her some extra stability...
 

ihatework

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Re the flash thing - too many people (amateur and professional), have the flash too tight. Sometimes way to tight othertimes just the wrong side of snug.
I have no issue with using a flash, but it has to be remembered that the horse must be able to open mouth, swallow, move bit, breathe!
 

milliepops

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Accidents happen in the most benign of situations. If horses are turned out there is a risk, same with the gallops.

preaching to the choir here - 4 injuries in 4 years, one on the gallops and 3 in the field.... 4 lots of rehab, 4 years off. which is why I now feel *uber* protective of my own horse!

But I do see where he is coming from, and I know that I am incredibly lucky (so far) that nugz is very much an allrounder both in disciplines and terrain. There are very many horses that just can't handle more than one discipline and the switch it can require, and as competition horses can be known for their quirks it makes more financial sense to concentrate on the one thing.

I don't know if it's that so much - I came to dressage from eventing, on the same horse, so I have a background in producing an all rounder but now only want to compete in one discipline.
Having had all the injuries above, tbh the inclination to do anything other than her new day job has vanished... and I only have a horse at AM, not GP!
 

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Definitely overthink things :eek:, as has been said we generally do not have enough horses to make our own system which we know works, so the self doubt and constant re-assessment is a good thing and keeps us from going too far down the wrong path.

However the more I learn and the more research I read and study, I entirely disagree with how a lot of the professionals treat their horses. I cannot agree that using aspects of different disciplines is not beneficial, and there is clear evidence that working on a variety of surfaces is the ideal for limb strength (and I'm not sure the two surfaces of smooth small fields for grazing and the school are enough).

However maybe this goes back to amateurs and pro's tend to have very different animals on their hands. As I don't mean every horse should be an all-rounder :lol: but if you think of dressage as strength training and show-jumping gymnastic ability then you can see how one might help the other in the less than ideal horse for the chosen discipline.

For Topaz doing specific fitness work of galloping and gymnastic work of jumping is essential to get her stamina levels up, just doing dressage training will never give her the strength and stamina needed for the higher levels. She is not a warmblood, she is not finely built so finds building up fitness harder than more hot-blooded horses (my PBA could out canter her now despite being semi retired!). I would think that some of the heavier set warmbloods would also benefit from fitness work asides from strength work (dressage training).

Yep, pretty much agree with everything here! And I know I definitely over think things!

There are so many varying factors with training so it's impossible to say what's best for each individual horse or rider. I don't like the idea of a non-varied workload, but then I'm not a pro dressage rider with a string of owners, nor do I have a horse that will lose concentration in flat schooling it did some jumping the day before.

I guess I would probably think differently if that were the case :p

Being geared towards or specialising in one particular discipline does skew opinions, I think.
 

milliepops

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In my mind, the idea that a professional (or anyone really :eek:) can say it's ok it broke doing the job it's 'suppose' to is probably what I object to, if a bit of variety might have meant it didn't break at all because it was using different muscle groups, placing strain on different areas (not the same tendons and ligaments all the time, like hocks in dressage horses) and maintaining a healthier hoof/leg/body function.

I think that is what I find upsetting about some of the systems out there, never mind the horse might be overall healthier, I cannot do XYZ because it is a 'discipline-specific' horse and I cannot justify if it hurt itself doing it...
.


I've paraphrased what he said, to be clear he didn't say that it was OK if the horse broke doing its job, more that if an owner has spent £100ks on a horse that breaks down, it's more acceptable/explainable as the rider/trainer if it was doing the job the owner bought the horse for, than if they went for a hooley round the woods or it stepped on a pole doing some jumping.

I totally understand that point of view, and at a sentimental rather than financial level, I feel exactly the same about my old campaigner, she doesn't need to jump now, nor go for hooleys, so if I did that with her for my own enjoyment and she broke down then I couldn't live with myself ;)

Don't get me wrong, I reckon part of the reason why Millie has been so nice to compete is because eventing gave her such a great education - those old legs have taken a pounding over the years...
 

Nugget La Poneh

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I don't know if it's that so much - I came to dressage from eventing, on the same horse, so I have a background in producing an all rounder but now only want to compete in one discipline.
Having had all the injuries above, tbh the inclination to do anything other than her new day job has vanished... and I only have a horse at AM, not GP!

I'm only concentrating on dressage for me as I prefer all four feet comparatively on the floor :D
 

HufflyPuffly

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I've paraphrased what he said....

I totally understand that point of view, and at a sentimental rather than financial level, I feel exactly the same about my old campaigner, she doesn't need to jump now, nor go for hooleys, so if I did that with her for my own enjoyment and she broke down then I couldn't live with myself ;)

Don't worry I didn't take it that he said that exactly ;).

I think your reasons are for the benefit of Millie, so there is no question that placing her tendons and ligaments under stress galloping about (or tight turns doing jumping I'm guessing) are absolutely not good for her and would only be for the fun element not overall health benefit. So in my mind at least ,it's separate to those who won't even if it could be of use for the horse.
 

milliepops

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on a personal level it's a tough call, because she needs more regular physio for her back if she doesn't do any proper open canterwork - before she got injured on the damn gallops I was using them to help her for exactly that reason. Now hacking past them just brings back bad memories, lol! I know Kira would benefit from using them *mentally*... but once bitten & all that.
 

HufflyPuffly

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on a personal level it's a tough call, because she needs more regular physio for her back if she doesn't do any proper open canterwork - before she got injured on the damn gallops I was using them to help her for exactly that reason. Now hacking past them just brings back bad memories, lol! I know Kira would benefit from using them *mentally*... but once bitten & all that.

Us overthink things??? Never :lol:!

I am quite sure you do the absolute best you can for them and if that means more physio rather than canter work to keep her tip top I don't think you can say you're doing a bad job!
 

milliepops

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Us overthink things??? Never :lol:!

I am quite sure you do the absolute best you can for them and if that means more physio rather than canter work to keep her tip top I don't think you can say you're doing a bad job!

so back to the original point as it wasn't intended to be a thread about me, lol ... :p but what makes that any different to a super megabucks horse getting the physio every week/water treadmill/alternative methods, rather than actually doing the poles or galloping?

Arguably it's a safer way to do it ;)

I wouldn't want to place a value judgement on anything, many (most?) amateur horses are multidisciplinary because their riders enjoy different things, but for those of us who have gone down one specific road.... I just feel like there is plenty to learn from the pros who don't appear to get drawn into 'should do' or 'mustn't do' things like the examples I've given ;)

Dunno, but I feel that places like this forum drum some stuff into you like gospel - only use a snaffle, only use a cavesson, must do different work, must do this, mustn't do that... whereas the people who actually make the big time don't appear to be concerned by the same things! lol!
 

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I overthink things! God I had my horse retired and breeding me a foal and all she'd done was strain her back!

Friend is encouraging me to get my first BE booked, and I was giving it 'but what if X Y Z, This isn't perfect, that isn't perfect, what if I ruin my horse etc etc.' and she just looked at me and said 'you can ride, you can do all the bits separate, you're going to have to do a first event at some point and how will you know what to work in if you don't give it a go?'

Which was a very fair point...

We cross train, hill work, road work, longreining, lunging- Skye was so fit and strong - and then she was an idiot in the field and BAM- all the work undone cause she needed time off. But then maybe I should be keeping her in 24/7 like the pros ;)
 
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Goldenstar

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Karen Dixon once said to me you get on the horse then you make what you need to happen , don't think about it do it .
Guilty as charged I am a thinker .
 

HufflyPuffly

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so back to the original point as it wasn't intended to be a thread about me, lol ... :p but what makes that any different to a super megabucks horse getting the physio every week/water treadmill/alternative methods, rather than actually doing the poles or galloping?

Arguably it's a safer way to do it ;)

I wouldn't want to place a value judgement on anything, many (most?) amateur horses are multidisciplinary because their riders enjoy different things, but for those of us who have gone down one specific road.... I just feel like there is plenty to learn from the pros who don't appear to get drawn into 'should do' or 'mustn't do' things like the examples I've given ;)

Dunno, but I feel that places like this forum drum some stuff into you like gospel - only use a snaffle, only use a cavesson, must do different work, must do this, mustn't do that... whereas the people who actually make the big time don't appear to be concerned by the same things! lol!


Nothing too different :) but from the vets mouth so to speak water treadmills carry a much higher risk of injury than poles or gallops for the average horse. The technician is completely key for the water treadmill for example as they need to set the limits of water height and resistance perfectly as it is critical to not straining things, and unless you can use one frequently they still carry a high risk of strain (sorry spent too much time at vet hospitals recently).

For me it's actually making it simple :)eek3:), horse is capable and sound to start with, whats the best way to build her up and whats the simplest way?

For me pro's have to make their time count, time is money and if they can put the horse on a walker/ treadmill/ etc whilst they ride/ teach/ eat/ sleep then I can see why they do it. Long term I'm not sure (I know Valegro used a water treadmill but I think it was for specific times to build up for specific events...).

Agree there is no right or wrong way sometimes, and will bow out and carry on reading with interest now :).
 

Lammy

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Someone asked about variety in their work - do they do jumping or go to the gallops, and he said no, because they need to be strong for their day job which is dressage, so jumping doesn't actually help them with that. Dressage training makes them strong for dressage, so that's what they need to do. They hack and go in the fields etc... not just drilled in the school :p but they don't need extracurricular stuff ;)
Do others on here feel pressured to add different stuff in, just so we can tick the box? (I don't mean doing things for fun, but for example there was a time when I would have taken a horse on a fun ride because I thought it was good for them - I wouldn't now because it's not helping the training I want to do. Likewise I once thought I should teach Kira to jump, but I've made my peace with that because I've realised she doesn't need to do it, it doesn't help her so we don't do it).

Just to add into this, I'm sure I've seen somewhere that a popular dressage rider (I want to say Carl but it might not be) has his horses jump as he feels that it uses different muscle groups which in turn benefit their dressage training. Not saying they whack up a 1.50m course and wing round but I don't see why gridwork or something of that like wouldn't be beneficial both physically and mentally?

I would also say amateur riders are more likely to have their horses learn to do things outside of their specific discipline to make them easier to sell on if they need to. My youngster is going to be geared towards eventing so he'll do everything anyway but if he was designed for purely dressage I would be making sure he could cope with a small course of jumps too so that if it came to selling him I could market him more easily as an allrounder. I doubt that even comes into it with a pro rider. :)
 

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Just to add into this, I'm sure I've seen somewhere that a popular dressage rider (I want to say Carl but it might not be) has his horses jump as he feels that it uses different muscle groups which in turn benefit their dressage training. Not saying they whack up a 1.50m course and wing round but I don't see why gridwork or something of that like wouldn't be beneficial both physically and mentally?

Carl jumps his horses, I believe, as does Ingrid Klimke (who admittedly is a cross-discipliner :) ). I know of one well known stud/producer who definitely does cavaletti work - actually, Danny Morgan bought a dressage horse from them, and the horse now does a bit of eventing to boot.

I am glad times are a changing. Yes, we do overthink things as amateurs but there was a time when horses would be disciplined for bad behaviour by the pros, ridden through it... the number of times we saw (e.g.) 'He's a devil in the dressage arena, spends most of his schooling time on his front legs with the hinds over my head, just have to pray he gives us 7 minutes reprieve on the day. He's a machine over the fences though' in the press.

We amateurs with our non-disposable horses wouldn't have ridden through such situations. We'd be getting them investigated. I'm not saying the pros wouldn't, or that they are all like those with the above attitude - but it was not so long ago that they wouldn't have thought twice about bad behaviour being anything but that. A fairly well known pro told me to beat the crap out of my TB for bronking. Said TB had a fractured pelvis that hadn't healed properly.
 

SusieT

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The flash arguement is crap - the only way it trains a horse to not open its mouth is by not letting it open its mouth - a horse who doesnt need to open his mouth will generally not...
And I would say he just doesn't think outside the box and probably isn't too bothered by his horses getting sour imo - sounds like a mass production yard to me rather than an enlightening one.
 

milliepops

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Interesting opinion Susie but we saw 6 happy forward thinking settled horses being ridden, who willingly offered their work in a relaxed way... I don't think that was a special day given the other examples I've seen of their horses in competition. :)
 
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