Do we over complicate our horses feeds?

ester said:
I guess it depends if said fat hairy cob has pssm ;)

I actually feel a bit the opposite, I think it’s good more people think about what they are feeding. Though granted some could get away with nowt if their grazing is balanced enough.
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Don’t all fat hairy cobs have PSSM, oh wait they are just fat and unfit :D
(Tongue in cheek peeps, sort of!)
 
ihatework said:
Don’t all fat hairy cobs have PSSM, oh wait they are just fat and unfit :D
(Tongue in cheek peeps, sort of!)
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Probably a good percentage - but getting them fit and unfat would probably help considerably even if that is the main issue :p
 
I think people get way too hung up about the small details. The vast majority of leisure horses would probably be perfectly fine on just forage and a suitable vit&min supplement. Apart from that, each brand has pretty much the same type of feeds (nuts, chaff, musli...), and sometimes even a variety of each type (lite chaff, senior chaff, regular chaff) which differ only very little from the other brand/variety in the basic nutritional content. Unless you are unlucky and have a horse with specific intolerances, the details are unlikely to make much of a difference to the horse.
In particular, I think the trend toward "clean feeds" (no byproducts, "natural") - a little bit in parallel with the dietary fad of "clean eating" - can go too far and reject feed stuffs on principle rather than because they are really harmful/useless to the horse. I fully understand that other reasons can also play a role (e.g. wanting to support UK products, or organic farming, or non-GM agriculture) for trying to avoid certain products/ingredients, but I think a lot of the time, there really is very little evidence the horse is taking any harm, so going down that route is really more a personal ethical choice, and not strictly necessary for the horse's welfare.
 
supsup said:
I think people get way too hung up about the small details. The vast majority of leisure horses would probably be perfectly fine on just forage and a suitable vit&min supplement. Apart from that, each brand has pretty much the same type of feeds (nuts, chaff, musli...), and sometimes even a variety of each type (lite chaff, senior chaff, regular chaff) which differ only very little from the other brand/variety in the basic nutritional content. Unless you are unlucky and have a horse with specific intolerances, the details are unlikely to make much of a difference to the horse.
In particular, I think the trend toward "clean feeds" (no byproducts, "natural") - a little bit in parallel with the dietary fad of "clean eating" - can go too far and reject feed stuffs on principle rather than because they are really harmful/useless to the horse. I fully understand that other reasons can also play a role (e.g. wanting to support UK products, or organic farming, or non-GM agriculture) for trying to avoid certain products/ingredients, but I think a lot of the time, there really is very little evidence the horse is taking any harm, so going down that route is really more a personal ethical choice, and not strictly necessary for the horse's welfare.
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But how much feed is thrown down horses throats trying to get the ******* to eat the vit and min supplement? And can anyone answer this, different balancers and mineral supplements give different ammounts of minerals and vits as there daily dose, so which of them is right?And I mean a best guess amount as it s impractical to test every bale of hay for minerals if hay bought from a Feed Merchant that is sourced from many places.
 
Can anyone, honestly, tell me that horses in general are suffering from mineral/vitamin deficiencies? I have spoken to many, many vets and ALL of them say that there is no need whatsoever to supplement the average horses diet. Would anyone even recognise a deficient horse? I ask as I actually have had need to add copper when I was running a stud farm in the US which was on a high molybdenum soil.
 
Cortez said:
Can anyone, honestly, tell me that horses in general are suffering from mineral/vitamin deficiencies? I have spoken to many, many vets and ALL of them say that there is no need whatsoever to supplement the average horses diet. Would anyone even recognise a deficient horse? I ask as I actually have had need to add copper when I was running a stud farm in the US which was on a high molybdenum soil.
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I haven't found a vet yet who knows as much about mineral balancing as I do, and I am no expert.

In general, forage analyses sent to ForagePlus are coming out high in iron.

Most people with shod horses will not realise there is an issue, but many with barefoot horses will not get them fully comfortable unless they supplement copper, which should then be balanced with three times as much zinc.

I've not had a spot of mud fever since I started doing this (my land is sky high in both iron and manganese), something which other people also report.

High iron and manganese prevent the uptake of copper.
 
I've heard of one horse, once, who had a genuine selenium deficiency.

This thread, along with my attempt to actually compare whats in some balancers and supplements (i.e. basically an utterly random selection of vits and mins), has definitely convinced me to ditch the broad spectrum supplement for my two. Forage only and see where we go from there.

I worked in a feed store for 3 years. I feel like I'm emerging from some kind of brainwashing cult.
 
IME all vets say supplements are pointless, but then they get to treat the horse when it becomes really ill from lacking something, so I don't fully trust that opinion.

I feed a decent vitamin/mineral supplement at 1/2 dose (because the forage obviously contains something) to anything with scabby flakey skin. It makes a difference, that's why I do it. Horses scratch less and have better manes and tails. I don't care that there's no science behind it, or that the forage isn't analysed first for deficiencies, or that the horse hasn't been tested for the cause of the less-than-ideal skin. I can see it works and that's good enough evidence for me.

Same with joint supplements. If I see an improvement I keep feeding it. Sometimes the improvement isn't all that obvious, but the deterioration when the supplement is stopped is noticeable, then the subtle positive difference when its started up again is more apparent.

I've witnessed herbal supplements for COPD work well, sometimes better than the stuff prescribed by the vet and are certainly a darn sight cheaper.

For me supplements are a form of first aid for less serious problems, preventing the need for expensive vet investigations and treatment. The same way I'll clean and dress a wound (and therefore am unlikely to need the vet), rather than leaving it to nature and calling the vet if it becomes infected. Of course management plays a role too, most horses especially with joint or breathing problems benefit from daily work with only one day off a week, a lot of them benefit from living out too.

If you pick something tasty (I favour bran, perhaps with a sprinkling of nuts/oats for fussy feeders), then you only need a handful and the horse will eat it even if the feed is 50% powdered supplements. So not chucking tons of feed at the horse to get the supplements eaten. I don't consider either the feed or the supplements unnecessary or a waste of money, not when I'm seeing the results.
 
Yardbird said:
But how much feed is thrown down horses throats trying to get the ******* to eat the vit and min supplement? And can anyone answer this, different balancers and mineral supplements give different ammounts of minerals and vits as there daily dose, so which of them is right?And I mean a best guess amount as it s impractical to test every bale of hay for minerals if hay bought from a Feed Merchant that is sourced from many places.
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Well I've picked one based on my forage analysis, the right one is the right one for your grazing/hay. In most years my hay comes off my grazing and I've had consistent results in different years. Different hay this year so sticking with the grazing analysis as best option, like anything we can only do what we think best.

The vit/min supplement I feed is 30g of pellets, I am not throwing any food down him to get that in. I do add some feed so that he can have his milk thistle (an absolute must) and boswellia, but as that is a handful of soaked hay cobs with a DE of of <8, and a combined sugar starch of 8.2% I don't worry about that.

Cortez there was a very sick copper deficient horse down the road from us.
I am happy to take the prevention rather than cure option. I don't think most vets know very much about nutrition or deficiencies.
 
I personally feel that if a person wants to give a bucket feed to their horse, providing they aren’t causing it a health or behavioural issue, it’s really not a problem, nor something that others should feel the need to make fun of.
We all want to do the best for our horses and are all approaching feeding from different angles based on our history, our horses, our circumstances, our set up, grazing etc.

I wonder though, if all the feed companies had to put their products in brown bags with simply the name on the front, how much of an impact this would have on sales.
 
ester said:
What I never quite understand is how many people speak to and take the advice of feed company nutritionists.
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I've found that feed company nutritionists can be quite variable - some will give good advice even if it doesn't get them a sale, whereas others will actually be quite misleading. I have several times availed myself of the nutritional services of feed companies at various RC/PC championships, purely to be able to put the horse on their weighbridge. But then have politely listened to their advice afterwards.

I found Dengie very unbiased, and didn't try and persuade me from my original diet of non-Dengie feed.

Spillers on the other hand, gave some very misleading advice, and tried to persuade me to swap my existing non Spillers feed (high calorie, low sugar/starch, which I explained was due to tying up issues and a relatively hard-working horse) for one that was lower calorie but higher sugar/starch. And then looked rather embarrassed when I challenged their advice and pointed out the difference in nutritional analysis of the two feeds.
 
That's good to hear that at least some work well TGM :).
I have spoken to people on stands etc in the past but then done my own digging to compare products.
 
Wowza what a response! I think feed companies might come hunting for me for putting them out of business! Will hopefully have some nice sunny (yes I'm dreaming) before and after pictures of my 'skinny' chap in a couple of months months to prove us all right &#55357;&#56397;&#55356;&#57340;
 
I've not read all of the replies. The horses at work get fed between 3-5 scoops of HDF or LDF cubes a day depending on size and workload. All get about a scoop of alfa a a day devided up between all 4 feeds. They get whatever supplements they need - ranging from Farriers Formula to Limestone Flour. All get electrolytes on a work day and after they race. Arthur won the National on 5 scoops of Spillers red HDF cubes and Alfa A.

My own get more Alfa A. They get about 3 scoops a day along with Equerry Mash and some Veteran Vitality split over 3 feeds. The natives (with the exclusion of the Welsh D) get a bit of Hi-Fi original, own brand cubes and a bit of speedibeat in the evening along with plenty of hay.

There are so many feeds out there to confuse people it's unreal!
 
Having not read all replies: yes, yes and yes again. It's hard - particularly when you have four horses all with different needs and a limited budget. What do you do?
Honestly, mine are happiest on a large acreage of poor mixed meadow grazing - not cattle grass but a mixture of plants, and quite poor stuff too. Late summer they were all looking great.
 
Yardbird said:
But how much feed is thrown down horses throats trying to get the ******* to eat the vit and min supplement? And can anyone answer this, different balancers and mineral supplements give different ammounts of minerals and vits as there daily dose, so which of them is right?And I mean a best guess amount as it s impractical to test every bale of hay for minerals if hay bought from a Feed Merchant that is sourced from many places.
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I think that this is also an area where often the details don't matter that much after all. For starters, the requirements of horses are not all that precisely known, and as mentioned above, the nutrient profile of forage is forever changing. So absolute precision really isn't possible. I would still maintain that forage + vits&mins is preferable over forage alone, because testing has shown that much of the forage in the UK is deficient in zinc, copper, selenium and Vit E (any preserved forage). Pick a product that is palatable (e.g. in the form of a pelleted balancer), preferably without added iron, and unless the horse has long-standing specific deficiencies, but is fed on changing lots of forage, they'll probably do fine. I'd start with whatever the recommended dose is (most are formulated to provide at least the daily minimum recommended amount of micronutrients according to the NRC) and see how the horse does. As with all the other feeds, there are loads of choices, and there's nothing wrong with shopping around, comparing and picking one that suits you. I just don't think the starting point (forage + vits&mins) needs to be complicated at all.

As for the absence of signs of mineral deficiencies - I wouldn't want to wait until my horse is sick to supplement, if there is evidence that forage alone does not supply all nutrients in sufficient quantity. Subtle signs of deficiency aren't necessarily easy to pick up (horse just "not quite right", or maybe "poor quality" hoof/coat - how do you quantify that?). To me, the collective evidence of UK forage samples (as well as samples I've had tested myself) is strong enough that I'm willing to spend around 50p a day "just in case" to supplement.
 
JFTD said:
I certainly think that the feed companies are more interested in profits than horse welfare - which is entirely logical from a business perspective, it's just owners who don't always seem to grasp it.
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Definitely!

The simpler the better is our motto. We feed soaked Argobs Wiesencobs, salt and magnesium. when the old ladies were here they did have more complicated feed with linseed, Aloe Vera juice, Vit E. but the youngsters don't need any of that.

I certainly wouldn't feed garlic, it is a poison.
 
This has been a very interesting thread.
In the last 25 years there has been a huge change in our horses diets, and the feed companies are just part of the picture. 2 things that really get overlooked is haylage and the grasses that grow in pasture, which are then turned into the Haylage we feed. All of which are more suited to cattle or sheep and are in my mind too rich for a equid.
The urge to fix horses with supplements and the conversation ensuing is getting boring across the internet. With feed less is more, Mary Bromley advocacy for grass hay and carrots has stood many yards in good stead over the years.
 
prodigal2 said:
This has been a very interesting thread.
In the last 25 years there has been a huge change in our horses diets, and the feed companies are just part of the picture. 2 things that really get overlooked is haylage and the grasses that grow in pasture, which are then turned into the Haylage we feed. All of which are more suited to cattle or sheep and are in my mind too rich for a equid.
The urge to fix horses with supplements and the conversation ensuing is getting boring across the internet. With feed less is more, Mary Bromley advocacy for grass hay and carrots has stood many yards in good stead over the years.
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Good point. Free living horses rarely graze pasture, they eat scrub, thistles, nettles & dried grass, even rushes.
 
Argh, I've gone full circle again! Now I'm back looking at multivitamin and mineral supplements, worrying about lack of copper and zinc in the forage... but they're all different! Why are they all different? When they're all supposedly "balanced"?

How is it possible to know, without detailed forage analysis and a degree in nutrition, that what you feed is safe and beneficial?

And every feed company has a number of different supplements and there doesn't even seem to be any cohesiveness between what's in them!

I can't do it, I can't figure it out. I just want the simplest possible solution that means my horses feet don't fall to bits and she doesn't tye-up again. :lol: She may only be a fat hogged cob but she's MY fat hogged cob and I want her to be the best she can be.
 
PapaverFollis said:
Argh, I've gone full circle again! Now I'm back looking at multivitamin and mineral supplements, worrying about lack of copper and zinc in the forage... but they're all different! Why are they all different? When they're all supposedly "balanced"?

How is it possible to know, without detailed forage analysis and a degree in nutrition, that what you feed is safe and beneficial?

And every feed company has a number of different supplements and there doesn't even seem to be any cohesiveness between what's in them!

I can't do it, I can't figure it out. I just want the simplest possible solution that means my horses feet don't fall to bits and she doesn't tye-up again. :lol: She may only be a fat hogged cob but she's MY fat hogged cob and I want her to be the best she can be.
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Then just go with linseed and vitamin e (added to whatever base feed you fancy) and take it from there :D
 
Plenty of owners also forget that horses are extremely efficient at digesting GRASS, which can, at certain times of the year, more than meet their nutritional needs. there's a mindset that if you're working a horse, it needs a 'proper' feed. I know in the spring/early summer, our grasses are extremely potent, and I only need to feed an oaten/lucerne chaff mix, with 50grams of ground linseed, salt and vit/min supplement. Horse is working at elementary level dressage and looks incredible (and is barefoot). Once the grass has turned (i.e. totally browned off!) I supplement with quality grass hay and add oats to the hard feed. This remains the diet over the winter months too with only changes being quantities altered as needed. Our property joins onto a stud farm with dozens of SB broodmares. They are out in all weather and are supplemented with a bit of hay and a generic pelleted feed a few times a week. They all look incredible!
 
Cortez said:
By looking at her and riding her?
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^ Exactly this.

We had Topaz weighed by Spillers who declared her weight perfect and asked what we fed. The answer was nothing but hay, they recommended a balancer :rolleyes3:, which when I investigated had all sorts of crap in it :rolleyes3:.

She gets a bit of linseed around coat changing time (with a handful of grass chop) as it takes it out of her and her coat looks dull and she gets scrufy. If she is a good weight, shiny and healthy then she doesn't need anything extra! She is working advanced and competing Adv Med dressage.

She looks better now than when she did get hard feed, I now wonder what it was doing to her as she does so well on just hay. We're struggling this winter as she had to go on haylage (lack of supply and what we could get made her cough) and she is too fat and a bit itchy...
 
i love feeding mine, twice a day at the mo, i believe in it, i can see the difference between when fed and not fed and the difference in energy when ridden and how they feel generally, really fascinates me.

having said that i feed the very minimum, and have experimented a long time to let them show me what suits them

i also think long term health and longevity and soundness into old age could very well be supported by correct nutrition and often people are amazed at the age of one of the older ones.

i use oats, alfa chop with straw, might be changing that, fast fibre small quantity,broad spectrum vits and mins sparingly, linseed or the oil, very high quality seaweed when needed and racehorse quality hay fed wet x 3 times daily.

i don`t feed any supplements at the weekend, large quantities of swede carrott and apples every other day.

i feed because there is a big difference in them when fed or not fed, and genuinely believe its good for them, anyway i could not face the disgusted looks if breakfast and supper did not arrive at the appointed time.
 
Lyle said:
Plenty of owners also forget that horses are extremely efficient at digesting GRASS
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The trouble is, they aren't. And especially not the ryegrass grown in this country. They evolved to eat a lot of fibre and scrub, not lush green stuff which causes no end of problems.
 
I am very lucky in that the Emerald green grass/alfalfa products are grown less than 10 miles away so know what goes into their feeds I drive passed their fields regularly I have seen them made too and only the relevant grass goes in the machine nothing else. Their grass is obviously specially grown to make their products but it has similar properties to my own grazing as in same soil etc So my ponies diet is basically grass with a little linseed for coat changes and to help with the oldies oil intake for their turmeric. The turmeric is the only supplement I use as it is the only one I have found that makes any difference to my ponies. Their very small feeds are only to add a bit of forage (oat straw) as they are on restricted grazing and all have the same in the bucket as they tend to swap around given half a chance
 
stopped feeding minerals/extras three years ago-didnt notice any difference in three unshod equines. Now have two barefoot, one of those in work (ish) (and he was shod up until last summer-has cracking feet)-they get grass, hay and a salt lick. They do have hill grazing though, which they are designed to do well on.
 
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