Do we undervalue skills in the horse world?

Ample Prosecco

Ample Prosecco

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Discussion on FB about a person paying £1000 a month for producing a horse. Comments that she is being 'robbed'.

Another discussion on a separate thread on here that £250 a week for backing a horse is 'too expensive'.

I don't think £250 week is expensive at all! If the horse is sent away that is full livery. My dog carer who takes dogs into her own home charges £25 a day which is perfectly standard. = £175 a week. And dogs require a lot less work! And a LOT LOT LOT less space. Yes they need a walk each day but go out in group. No mucking out.

Then presumably each horse is worked for about an hour 5 days a week and requires skilled education with some added risks for the trainer. So that's 5 hours work a week on average. £250 a week minus the full livery fee, values your trainer's expertise at about £15 an hour.

Breeders can't make money breeding allrounders (what everyone actually wants) because no-one will pay what it costs to get them to 3, 4 or 5 healthy and calm. Producers can't make money starting horses to be safe, calm, educated with a great foundation (again what everyone wants). No wonder so many horses are broken young and/or with significant behavioural problems! In my view, dross sells because it's cheaper, but those horses break younger and are less temperamentally sound. And not enough money is spent on training for both horse and rider. Thoughts?
 
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The yard where mine go for holidays is £250 for training livery. I think that is value for what they get. They don't give lessons but will come into the arena when the owner rides and help/support. They will take them competing (costs extra obviously, as competing costs extra!). They have done backing and breaking as well as competing.

Happily, cost wise, mine don't go there for training, just for holiday!

I agree that people berate livery yards but won't pay what the service they WANT would actually cost. Having mine at home, it would be cheaper to have them on livery with what local yards are charging! However, I know that corners are being cut that I wouldn't be comfortable with.
 
Oh yes livery is another great example! Another FB post from a yard ownr who asked her liveries to pay more for hay because prices have gone up so much and she was actually running at a LOSS. They refused so she was canvassing opinion. Comments broadly split between yard owners saying they can't make money because people would not pay what it ACTUALLY costs if you factor in YO's time, maintenance, waasted hay,trashed fields, broken equipment etc versus liveries saying they would also not accept unexpected increases.
 
Daily boarding costs locally.
I think like nursing there is the idea that if you work with animals that you do it for the love of the job or lifestyle. People who are good at their job nearly always make it look easy, because most of the work is unseen, planning and anticipating problems before they happen, and there are lots of hidden costs.

SMALL - EG JACK RUSSELL MEDIUM - EG LABRADOR GIANT - EG GREAT DANE
£26.00 £27.00 £28.00
Two Dogs Sharing £43.00
Three small Dogs Sharing £52.00
 
I paid just short of that at mates rates to have my mare broken to drive about 6yrs ago and considered it a bargain. The cost of living has escalated wildly since then so I'd imagine its a lot more now. Worth every penny as she was up and running and out at her first competition in 3 weeks.
 
The impact on horses and ponies of the cheap and cheerful culture where everyone thinks they can do it themselves and no one wants to pay for a pro with decent skills when they get stuck, is enormous for anything that is not straightforward. Everyone thinks if a horse acts up it is pain or hormones … and in an established horse I would be 100% with that. Young ponies do act up, that is the point of training. Ponies don’t magically come understanding our world - that too is training.

I could tell so many tales - of failed backing processes, failed handling (they seem to love to turn up at my door, those ones!) and just completely confused ponies.

My son’s new mare is aggressive out of fear and anxiety but also because she doesn’t understand how to relate to humans. You touch her, she reacts like you are a less dominant pony and tells you off for touching her without permission. You ask her to move, she tries to move you. She hasn’t a clue how to exist in our world. Previous owners did all the vet stuff but stuck with their basic instructor who had no idea how to fix the behaviours they were seeing. We have been nothing but black and white with her and as a result she was cuddling my son in the paddock this morning - she’s been here one and a half days - she already feels safer.
 
I'm not sure we all under value skills. I'm happy to pay for someone more skilled than myself to work with my horses. Its finding that skilled person that I struggle with. the prices people charge vary so much and the person charging the most doesn't necessarily offer the best quality service.

I think a bigger problem (for me anyway) is people overestimating their own skills and selling themselves as something they are not.

ETA - it's a real minefield trying to wade through the good and the bad, One I'm currently navigating for ridden work for Reggie and driving work for both (I think the driving is sorted now).
 
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dorsetladette said:
I'm not sure we all under value skills. I'm happy to pay for someone more skilled than myself to work with my horses. Its finding that skilled person that I struggle with. the prices people charge vary so much and the person charging the most doesn't necessarily offer the best quality service.

I think a bigger problem (for me anyway) is people overestimating their own skills and selling themselves as something they are not.

ETA - it's a real minefield trying to wade through the good and the bad, One I'm currently navigating for ridden work for Reggie and driving work for both (I think the driving is sorted now).
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When my daughters to large for the ponies I was backing I sent them away, the two people that cocked it up were people had obviously not ridden enough types of animals, and had no idea how to train it for a life outside a working area. The ones I was most pleased with, one was a dealers yard where they concentrated on hacking it out and it traffic, and an ex jockey, who did the same, so neither had any qualifications or competition experience.
IME the worst people were those that competed and the boarders were just seen as secondary income and were not interested in providing a service they were paid for.
If a yard has a horse walker I would think twice about sending a horse there.
 
I think a lot of people, certainly at the lower end of things, from a schooling livery point of view have a direct correlation in their head between money spent and whether they have increased the horses value by the same amount. I’ve heard it a lot recently
 
ester said:
I think a lot of people, certainly at the lower end of things, from a schooling livery point of view have a direct correlation in their head between money spent and whether they have increased the horses value by the same amount. I’ve heard it a lot recently
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That's not something I've ever thought about. I mean my OH doesn't decorate a house and then calculate how much value he's added to the property by the work he's carried out. He quotes for a job based on his time and the materials required to complete the job.

I could understand a dealer calculating how much time they wanted to spend on a horse to increase it's value for sale, but a breaking and schooling service is just that - a service.

Or is my thought process wrong?
 
dorsetladette said:
That's not something I've ever thought about. I mean my OH doesn't decorate a house and then calculate how much value he's added to the property by the work he's carried out. He quotes for a job based on his time and the materials required to complete the job.

I could understand a dealer calculating how much time they wanted to spend on a horse to increase it's value for sale, but a breaking and schooling service is just that - a service.

Or is my thought process wrong?
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It's not your thought process that's wrong.

A horse's value isn't purely determined by its resale value - if it's trained to do a job you want, it's valuable to you, even if nobody else would want a horse trained for that job. And that's why training is under priced in the examples in the OP. You should be paying for the time, training, materials involved.


(I mean, I would tend to avoid paid training at pro yards, but that's because I'd struggle to trust anyone I didn't know very, very well. People have very different ideas about what's acceptable for horses, as is often evident in discussions on here!)
 
I think part of the problem is that horses are expensive. Period.
But there seems to be an attitude in certain circles that anyone can have a horse, and you can do it all on a tiny budget. And then they kick off as soon as something is out of their price range.
 
dorsetladette said:
That's not something I've ever thought about. I mean my OH doesn't decorate a house and then calculate how much value he's added to the property by the work he's carried out. He quotes for a job based on his time and the materials required to complete the job.

I could understand a dealer calculating how much time they wanted to spend on a horse to increase it's value for sale, but a breaking and schooling service is just that - a service.

Or is my thought process wrong?
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I bet some of his clients do though

Not saying it’s right just that’s how some clients are thinking, I agree there’s way more to a horse than monetary value.
 
I was reading a few posts on the bd forum that essentially conclude that equine professionals are to a certain extent subsidising our hobby. Staff in the equine industry are chronically underpaid and overworked; we do undervalue them.

But, fewer and fewer people have the disposable income to spend on their horses. Do I think that £1000 a month is reasonable to have a horse produced, absolutely. But there is a very small pool of people that have that amount of cash lying around when they perhaps thought that they would be paying £100 a month for diy and £50 for hay.

I do feel that equestrianism is likely to become very elitist (if it isn’t already), looking locally at places such as Somerford and Kelsall which are expanding exponentially, with their facilities and full livery yards run by international riders, but I could name at leat ten part/diy yards within an hour that have closed within the past ten years which, including my own. Owning a horse isn’t a right, and I think if we do value the services of equine professionals fairly, the vast majority of horse owners will be priced out.
 
Good training skills are most certainly undervalued - TBH I'd be concerned if training livery was only £250 as I'd be concerned that corners are being cut somewhere.

Part livery is about £125-140 pw around here, a decent trainer would usually charge at least £40 for a lesson (my regular trainer is £65 for 45 minutes). I would expect decent training livery to be part livery + cost to groom and tack up + cost of 5 training sessions per week. That would be considerably more than £250 pw!
 
I think the average horse owner also doesn’t invest enough in training themselves. It’s all very well paying for professionals, but ultimately the owner is solely responsible for the well being of their horse, and few people seem to bother educating themselves until they have no other option.
 
This is why I back my own and don’t do it anymore for other people ( I stopped years before my back injury) people don’t like when you charge them the real cost for your time. They have a price in their head and woe forbid you go over it. Even when you tell them the cost up front, they would pick holes in it after the job was done. I also stopped because you would do the job they get the bill and the horse back then find reason not to pay you.

People want everything for pennies. I just prefer to do things for myself now, not that I’m much good to man nor beast with my body as it is but beforehand I just said no sorry I’m too busy with my own horses.
 
VictoriaSponge said:
But, fewer and fewer people have the disposable income to spend on their horses. Do I think that £1000 a month is reasonable to have a horse produced, absolutely. But there is a very small pool of people that have that amount of cash lying around when they perhaps thought that they would be paying £100 a month for diy and £50 for hay.
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And people will also be paying their usual livery while paying for the short term professional fees to back/break their pony. So if your already stretched paying for livery and all the other bits that go with ownership you probably aren't going to have the spare cash to spend on training at another yard for 2 months.

Locally to me (as I mentioned on another thread) prices vary from £130 - £250 with an estimated time of 6-8 weeks. I'm not saying £250 is to expensive - but that is the top end of the prices I've been quoted. The lady I'm mostly likely to go with sits just under the top of the price range. She doesn't have the best yard around and doesn't have the best/most shiny facilities, but she has consistent good results in the sphere I am most interested in. And the horses she competes are all produced by herself from her little yard. Her horses are mannerly and ride nicely when see out and about and appear responsive to her aids. These are the things that are important to me.

The person offering the service for £130 a week suggests she has lots of experience in different area's and has lots of photos to back this up. But on further investigation this young lady is only 17 years old. She isn't working alongside anyone, just renting an extra stable at the livery yard she keeps her own horse. Scary to think how this could end.

FYI - I've probably done more research on who to send our ponies to for breaking and schooling than I did when choosing my kids schools.
 
It’s the same in the dog grooming industry. People think nothing of spending £80-100 (or more) on their own hair, but many people complain about the cost of having their dog groomed. You only have to go on a most local FB groups and there’ll be someone trying to find a cheaper groomer.

I charge £44-50 for a cockapoo. I am on that dog solidly for the whole groom (anything up to 2 hours, depending on dog size/state of coat/dog temperament). There’s no leaving the dog with a magazine for 30 minutes while their colour takes! It’s none stop from the moment that dog walks in and it’s a messy, manual and at times, dangerous, job.
I’ve chatted to my hairdresser about this and she think it’s crazy that I earn less for grooming a fully matted cockapoo than she does for a colour and trim on a well-maintained head of hair.

The US charge higher for grooming and higher pricing seems to be more widely accepted over there compared to here.
 
Hackback said:
If I paid my trainer to ride my horse for an hour, 5 days a week, at my lesson rate, it would cost more than £250 a week and that's before the livery costs etc.
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I was asked to back a horse I had done original ground work with when a non horse background family bought an 18 month old competition type for a teen who was coming off ponies. I'd cautioned them that it was a big jump up for the teen, and that the horse would need sending away for backing/breaking when the time came. I was able to help them learn to catch, lead, handle feet, load, get in and out of the stable, basis of pressure/release and washing. We did maybe half a dozen sessions and things were on an even keel.

The horse was a sensitive competition type and I did suggest a different horse would be a heck of a lot easier for the teen to learn horses with but no, they'd bought this one and wanted to stick with it. They got to grips with general handling and I didn't see the horse again.

When the horse came of age, they contacted me, and I again declined to help personally, but signposted them to the yard where mine go. Nope, they wanted me to come 2 or 3 days a week to their yard. I have backed only one horse and would have refused anyway, despite having a lot of experience with many different types of youngsters and competition types, but also stated that I genuinely believed that the way they proposed would lead to disaster and a comprehensive service would be the way to go.

They contacted a different trainer, all the qualifications (many many BHS qualifications) but very little actual riding experience beyond BHS training establishments. They'd certainly never backed and brought on one, let alone a sensitive competition type, let alone with inexperienced owners doing the rest of the work. They'd not owned their own.

I kept my distance, but did hear in the grapevine that the trainer sustained an injury of some description whilst training this horse. It was simply not the best way for that horse and I am sure it was the correct thing for me to decline under those circumstances. I hope it all worked out in the end but would stand by my assertation that sending away to a pro yard would have been better.

Had they gone to the pro yard, it wouldn't just be the under saddle training. The horse would have seen more of life in a busy yard (it lived in a 2 horse private yard), would have been handled by different competent people, would have learned in a fair but no nonsense way to stand, tie, lead... whatever was going on around it. It is about learning that the world does not revolve around it, that it can be calm when it is busy etc etc. The actual work sessions would likely have been mostly 20 minutes to half an hour, but may well have been twice a day.

The initial rides would have been done somewhere safe, with a rider who was unlikely to come unstuck. That means the horse is far less likely to lose confidence and therefore the process is quicker and smoother.
 
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Red-1 said:
I was asked to back a horse I had done original ground work with when a non horse background family bought an 18 month old competition type for a teen who was coming off ponies. I'd cautioned them that it was a big jump up for the teen, and that the horse would need sending away for backing/breaking when the time came. I was able to help them learn to catch, lead, handle feet, load, get in and out of the stable, basis of pressure/release and washing. We did maybe half a dozen sessions and things were on an even keel.

The horse was a sensitive competition type and I did suggest a different horse would be a heck of a lot easier for the teen to learn horses with but no, they'd bought this one and wanted to stick with it. They got to grips with general handling and I didn't see the horse again.

When the horse came of age, they contacted me, and I again declined to help personally, but signposted them to the yard where mine go. Nope, they wanted me to come 2 or 3 days a week to their yard. I have backed only one horse and would have refused anyway, despite having a lot of experience with many different types of youngsters and competition types, but also stated that I genuinely believed that the way they proposed would lead to disaster and a comprehensive service would be the way to go.

They contacted a different trainer, all the qualifications (many many BHS qualifications) but very little actual riding experience beyond BHS training establishments. They'd certainly never backed and brought on one, let alone a sensitive competition type, let alone with inexperienced owners doing the rest of the work. They'd not owned their own.

I kept my distance, but did hear in the grapevine that the trainer sustained an injury of some description whilst training this horse. It was simply not the best way for that horse and I am sure it was the correct thing for me to decline under those circumstances. I hope it all worked out in the end but would stand by my assertation that sending away to a pro yard would have been better.

Had they gone to the pro yard, it wouldn't just be the under saddle training. The horse would have seen more of life in a busy yard (it lived in a 2 horse private yard), would have been handled by different competent people, would have learned in a fair but no nonsense way to stand, tie, lead... whatever was going on around it. It is about learning that the world does not revolve around it, that it can be calm when it is busy etc etc. The actual work sessions would likely have been mostly 20 minutes to half an hour, but may well have been twice a day.

The initial rides would have been done somewhere safe, with a rider who was unlikely to come unstuck. That means the horse is far less likely to lose confidence and therefore the process is quicker and smoother.
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The fact that BHS qualifications allow people to teach freelance but don’t include training a young horse is a throwback to a time in history when horses were trained professionally and people bought a fully made article. They desperately, desperately need to change their approach.
 
maya2008 said:
The fact that BHS qualifications allow people to teach freelance but don’t include training a young horse is a throwback to a time in history when horses were trained professionally and people bought a fully made article. They desperately, desperately need to change their approach.
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I've done BHS up to AI level and absolutely nothing in the qualifications actually teaches you to train a horse. Its all about competence- can you tack up in X tack, do you know what this bit is, how woulld you appropriately rug/feed this horse for its level of work, whats a stifle?
And all the riding is assessed on schoolmaster horses, focused on rider competence. Nothing regarding horsemanship or horse training at all.

I did the qualification to be able to say I am qualified but when I trained horses, none of the skills I used were learnt from the BHS qualifications.

All the AI teaches is how to teach simple lessons, and be competent riding and handling already established horses to a basic level, nothing else.
 
250 a week is a bargain if it includes livery as well with turnout which will probably be individual if they are being sent a way for a short time.

You probably won't get part livery with hay, bedding, feed etc for much under £800 a month if you are lucky, which would leave £50 a week for training which is £10 per session if 5 days a week.
 
maya2008 said:
The fact that BHS qualifications allow people to teach freelance but don’t include training a young horse is a throwback to a time in history when horses were trained professionally and people bought a fully made article. They desperately, desperately need to change their approach.
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emilylou said:
I've done BHS up to AI level and absolutely nothing in the qualifications actually teaches you to train a horse. Its all about competence- can you tack up in X tack, do you know what this bit is, how woulld you appropriately rug/feed this horse for its level of work, whats a stifle?
And all the riding is assessed on schoolmaster horses, focused on rider competence. Nothing regarding horsemanship or horse training at all.

I did the qualification to be able to say I am qualified but when I trained horses, none of the skills I used were learnt from the BHS qualifications.

All the AI teaches is how to teach simple lessons, and be competent riding and handling already established horses to a basic level, nothing else.
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Please go read the latest exam structures and syllabi before bemoaning an exam system that has changed drastically since around 2015 (and yes, I have parts of the Stage 5/BHSI under the new system). I’ve said this before on here and will say it again - the backbone of the Stage 4 and the Stage 5 exams are about training and educating a range of horses including youngsters, especially at the Stage 5/BHSI, plus the lunging and long reining element. I am fairly sure for the Stage 5 ride/BHSI you have to produce some form of written outline of how you’ve brought on a young horse, and then defend it in the exam. An old colleague of mine bought a youngster to specifically do so.

I do agree the Stage 3/old AI could potentially include more. However it was always seen as the lowest all around level to get to (over the PTT/Stage 2 coach), and never the ceiling of knowledge and training. How would you propose changing the Stage 3 to effectively a higher standard - there are Stage 3 riders around who probably wouldn’t be best suited to a green 4 year old, and how do you differentiate between the 3 and the 4/5? There is also only some much you can do in an exam situation at a exam centre too. Also worth noting that the BHS has reduced the jumping height for Stage 3 from Jan 25 onwards as, accordingly to the email I received, jumping those heights does not accurately reflect the nature of what is expected from a Stage 3 rider/groom/coach on a day to day basis, based on feedback given to the BHS.


On people not valuing, skills, training and subsequently education - no they don’t. Everything is chronically undervalued in the industry. It’s why in part so many people see the AI/Stage 3 as the be all and end all, when in fact it’s the actual start of the process 🙄
 
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250 is good value for training I was paying that over twenty years ago and keeping horses has not got cheaper .
I had a conversation this week with a friend .
Another yard was charging £ 1 for a rug change and put it up to £3 .
Everyone thought this was awful but if you think about it a groom on minimum wage is paid is paid £11.40 then there’s NI, insurance of the staff etc
To put on a headcollar tie up the horse unrug it hang up the rug get the other rug and put it on say that takes five minutes so you can do 12 in an hour.
Then you need to consider that services share of the overheads and then you add profit .
At £3 there’s some profit 30 to 50 % I would guess at £1 the yard is making a loss .
All businesses have to think like this and in most people get that what’s going on why do people struggle so much to get this with services for horses.
 
teapot said:
Please go read the latest exam structures and syllabi before bemoaning an exam system that has changed drastically since around 2015 (and yes, I have parts of the Stage 5/BHSI under the new system). I’ve said this before on here and will say it again - the backbone of the Stage 4 and the Stage 5 exams are about training and educating a range of horses including youngsters, especially at the Stage 5/BHSI, plus the lunging and long reining element. I am fairly sure for the Stage 5 ride/BHSI you have to produce some form of written outline of how you’ve brought on a young horse, and then defend it in the exam. An old colleague of mine bought a youngster to specifically do so.

I do agree the Stage 3/old AI could potentially include more. However it was always seen as the lowest all around level to get to (over the PTT/Stage 2 coach), and never the ceiling of knowledge and training. How would you propose changing the Stage 3 to effectively a higher standard - there are Stage 3 riders around who probably wouldn’t be best suited to a green 4 year old, and how do you differentiate between the 3 and the 4/5? There is also only some much you can do in an exam situation at a exam centre too. Also worth noting that the BHS has reduced the jumping height for Stage 3 from Jan 25 onwards as, accordingly to the email I received, jumping those heights does not accurately reflect the nature of what is expected from a Stage 3 rider/groom/coach on a day to day basis, based on feedback given to the BHS.


On people not valuing, skills, training and subsequently education - no they don’t. Everything is chronically undervalued in the industry. It’s why in part so many people see the AI/Stage 3 as the be all and end all, when in fact it’s the actual start of the process 🙄
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I have a friend who is training in the current system - she’s done her stage 3 and is training for stage 4. Most instructors have stage 3 - which includes nothing about training a horse, just about maintaining training of an established horse. There is some inclusion of the idea of training a horse stage 4 up - but most instructors don’t get that far. I can confidently say that my 12 year old son knows more about training a green horse than someone who has done their AI with no other experience. Only including training a horse at that level means the vast majority of the BHS instructor base have no idea.

In modern society when everyone and his friend is taking on a project and backing them, or taking on a green horse/pony because that is all they can afford, your standard instructor NEEDS that knowledge. If the change needed is that they have to take stage 4 to qualify or if they add some of that information in lower down then whatever works. But people trust the BHS qualification system and it’s failing them. The pony I have on my yard now spent months scaring its people because no one down the line, despite having BHS instructors out, had a clue!
 
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