cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Love Frank's art Ester!!!
Do you compete at the same level that you train at? BD Dressage
- Thread starter Daisy1905
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TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's an 'argument' I think it's just different approaches depending on what people want to accomplish, the horses involved etc.
I do think though that people whose end goal is GP are going to expect to move up much more quickly and will generally compete less often (if at all) at each level and, when they do, it will be with a specific goal in mind. They are playing the long game.
On a personal note my own training and inclination is with PS. But I wouldn't always suggest the same for someone else, especially in the UK where people are more inclined to compete for 'fun' and as a form of training. When the stakes are higher, for whatever reason, it doesn't make as much sense to just have a go and see how it works out.
I do think though that people whose end goal is GP are going to expect to move up much more quickly and will generally compete less often (if at all) at each level and, when they do, it will be with a specific goal in mind. They are playing the long game.
On a personal note my own training and inclination is with PS. But I wouldn't always suggest the same for someone else, especially in the UK where people are more inclined to compete for 'fun' and as a form of training. When the stakes are higher, for whatever reason, it doesn't make as much sense to just have a go and see how it works out.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
okey dokes.
Jango
Well-Known Member
I can definitely see both sides, I'm a grass roots rider, but I'm a bit of a perfectionist (hence my love for dressage!) and I wouldn't take a horse who wasn't CAPABLE of some of the movements out at that level, I would be embarrassed and stressed! And that would transfer to my horse and it wouldn't be fair. I prepare and plan everything carefully it's just my personality, I've got friends who are quite happy to try and wing it and it wouldn't bother them trying a test they couldn't do at home. (If you and the horse are capable and it goes t*ts up in the ring that's different! And I can laugh that off!)
I think it's sensible to be schooling a level higher at home, I'm currently competing Restricted Novice BD, unaff Elem and schooling Elem/Med. We could go out and compete Elem BD and probably place mid table (we've been 1st/2nd last 6 classes at Nov) but I'd like to try going to AFs and regionals at a level we are confident at and while we are still in restricted and it's only our first season! If all goes to plan we will move up to Novice Open/Elem restricted in the new year. Although unless you have a behaviour issue I think being capable of a full Medium test but competing Prelim that isn't quite right! But it's within the rules so fair enough.
I think it's sensible to be schooling a level higher at home, I'm currently competing Restricted Novice BD, unaff Elem and schooling Elem/Med. We could go out and compete Elem BD and probably place mid table (we've been 1st/2nd last 6 classes at Nov) but I'd like to try going to AFs and regionals at a level we are confident at and while we are still in restricted and it's only our first season! If all goes to plan we will move up to Novice Open/Elem restricted in the new year. Although unless you have a behaviour issue I think being capable of a full Medium test but competing Prelim that isn't quite right! But it's within the rules so fair enough.
tabithakat64
Well-Known Member
Whilst I agee with most of the points made in this thread, it annoys me when I see horses competing in intros and prelims that are clearly capable of so much more when you watch them warm up. This to me is just pot-hunting and unsporting and discourages the average leisure rider like myself from competing.
If I had to draw a line I would say it's fine to be training at a maximum of two levels above which you compete as I realise some combinations struggle with confidence or certain movements that would mean that they weren't ready to compete at the level at which they are training at home. I'm another who has a horse that finds lateral work easy but can't canter
If I had to draw a line I would say it's fine to be training at a maximum of two levels above which you compete as I realise some combinations struggle with confidence or certain movements that would mean that they weren't ready to compete at the level at which they are training at home. I'm another who has a horse that finds lateral work easy but can't canter
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monte1
Well-Known Member
I think I fall into the "compete at the level we actually are working at brigade" in reality we like to event and jump when I have my bravepants on!! but I am enjoying trying to improve our flatwork by doing some dressage tests. horse is fairly straightforward and always tries his best to do what I ask of him, never been phased by dressage markers or anything in the arena (thankfully!) but, he is built naturally very downhill and we do struggle with uphill downward transitions and decent uphill canter work still. having said that I have just taken the plunge and entered our first long arena prelim test (19) for next weekend ,after some encouragement from friends and a chat with the venue organiser!! so will be practicing like mad this week and hoping to manage to remember the test and make at least a decent effort at it. We dont even have a school at our yard and usually set up one on the grass for our eventing (20 x 40). So , in readiness I set out a 20 x 60 on Monday evening (blimey it was huge!!) have practiced in it a few times and am getting used to it, but think am most worried about getting all the way down the centre line both times keeping straight without wobbles!!! any tips and advice most welcome!
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
Whilst I agee with most of the points made in this thread, it annoys me when I see horses competing in intros and prelims that are clearly capable of so much more when you watch them warm up. This to me is just pot-hunting and unsporting and discourages the average leisure rider like myself from competing.
If I had to draw a line I would say it's fine to be training at a maximum of two levels above which you compete as I realise some combinations struggle with confidence or certain movements that would mean that they weren't ready to compete at the level at which they are training at home. I'm another who has a horse that finds lateral work easy but can't canter
buuuuut-its a competition the whole point is to win! Not to stand by and say "no go on YOU win, its alright, ill do a higher level, honestly i dont mind"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
there is nothing unsporting about being competitive, and being the best in that class, as long as you operate within the rules.
if the average leisure rider just wants to enjoy it, then please dont complain when those who take it more seriously win........ and if YOU want to win-get serious about your training.
ETA-the *level* you are training at it sometimes not so simplistic.....we have taught Fig passage to improve the med/ext trot, but he is not schooling GP. I have clients competing nov/elem who do some piaffe steps to improve the quickness behind and sit in the collected trot and canter, they are also not schooling GP.
so dont be so quick to judge when you see that novice horse doing some half steps etc, training is so much more fluid than doing X movement=training at Y level.
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ann-jen
Well-Known Member
In all honesty I think the way BD grades both horse and rider through the points system it creates a fair system in which I'm unlikely to be competing against Carl Hester any time soon lol
I also compete BS and often end up competing against pros in the lower end classes. Or in the open classes against horses that have competed at much higher level. Personally I like the challenge! But I'd say the BD system is fairer.
I also compete BS and often end up competing against pros in the lower end classes. Or in the open classes against horses that have competed at much higher level. Personally I like the challenge! But I'd say the BD system is fairer.
Jango
Well-Known Member
I do want to win and I'm very competitive, BUT I also want to push myself and my horse. I skipped prelim when we affiliated because it would be too easy for us, although within the rules we could have done. No-one is saying because a horse can do a sort-of half pass sometimes it should be forced into medium as different horses excell at different things. But IMO if a horse can do a full medium test reasonably well it should not be entering and winning prelims.
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
I think this is slightly unusual. I've never heard anyone planning to move up from Nov Rest to Nov Open before. If your rider group lets you ride restricted (mine doesn't) then do so. You can stay restricted until you get 14 Elem points as far as I understand. I wouldn't move into the Open section until the rules forced me to.
I think PS's point about competing at lower levels if you're still eligible is germane. It is, as she says, a competition and there will be people trying to win. For the most part that's the whole point. It's not cheating or bad sportsmanship. Call it gamesmanship if you like, but that's just playing within the rules the smart way, not anything sneaky. I'm happy to compete slightly above my level in the knowledge that we will often be beaten hands down. Last time out I was second in the restricted section with 63.8. The person above me had 64.1 or similar. The overall winner had 74%. Did I moan and say 'oh, she shouldn't be doing this level'? No, I watched her test and admired it. Good for her. I'll never beat her, but I don't deserve to either so I won't be finding ways to try to belittle her achievement. She'll soon be out of points at this level anyway...
Jango
Well-Known Member
Sorry I didn't explain that properly! I meant I'd start competing at Elem and then when I got the 14 points I'd move up to Open 
But I'm not doing any Elementary classes at the moment as I still want to stay in Restricted until next season.
But I'm not doing any Elementary classes at the moment as I still want to stay in Restricted until next season.
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think we pretty much skipped prelim too, we had done plenty of novices and some elem unaff and affiliated to try and get some better, more consistent judging- that and, well prelims just bore both of us (4 and 7 particularly iirc). We like elem to music, we can pick the bits we are better at 
.
Much as my trainer is certain that Frank will learn the concept of a half pass before he dies I do think with an older animal you do just sort of enjoying what you have and working within their current limits rather than any particular training goal.
. Much as my trainer is certain that Frank will learn the concept of a half pass before he dies I do think with an older animal you do just sort of enjoying what you have and working within their current limits rather than any particular training goal
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Gamebird
Well-Known Member
Sorry I didn't explain that properly! I meant I'd start competing at Elem and then when I got the 14 points I'd move up to Open
That makes a lot of sense. I think I misread your meaning.
tabithakat64
Well-Known Member
The definition of competition is:
1. The act of competing, as for profit or a prize; rivalry.
2. A test of skill or ability
Competing for me is about testing ourselves and performing to the best of our ability and not just about winning. If I was competing at a level much lower than I was capable of performing at then I wouldn't be testing myself or my horse in any way regardless of eligibility to compete under BD rules.
Mind you I also fall into the camp which feels if you are consistently scoring 70 plus then you should move up a level
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Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
The definition of competition is:
1. The act of competing, as for profit or a prize; rivalry.
2. A test of skill or ability
Competing for me is about testing ourselves and performing to the best of our ability and not just about winning. If I was competing at a level much lower than I was capable of performing at then I wouldn't be testing myself or my horse in any way regardless of eligibility to compete under BD rules.
Mind you I also fall into the camp which feels if you are consistently scoring 70 plus then you should move up a level
if your personal competition is testing yourself, then dont complain when you get beaten? it doesnt make any sense to say on one hand that for you its all about competing against YOURSELF and yet on the other hand those that set out to beat you are bad sportmen?!
again using Fig as an example-he's hit 80%+ at BD novice. But we moved him to elem when he was good and ready and not just because he had hit that mark. He hits high 60's to 70% virtually every time out at elem,but for all the reasons outlined in previous post is not yet ready to move up again and we will not rush him just to give everyone else a chance.
If people were forced out of classes sooner, just to make other people happy, you would end up with lesser quality classes and where is the fun in winning that?
I was placed 9th at the regionals (open adv med) against some serious pro's................and id rather be 9th in a top quality class than 1st in a mediocre one. I want to better myself all the time, watch the top people and learn from them, see how they ride the same tests, see if i can inch closer and closer.
I dont want BD to kick them all out the class then say "here you go PS, 1st place, well done"!!!!!!!!
IMO-training is where you test things, at home. At a competition you should be well within the comfort zone and able to show off what you can do REALLY well.
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
I haven't met many genuine 'pot hunters', and in fact I'm not quite sure what people mean when they say that. However, I have met people who stick at a level with a particular horse for a long time for all sorts of different reasons. For example, I used to ride a young horse that my boss had bought to be a showjumper, and although he had a very good jump it soon became apparent that he wasn't a top class showjumping talent, but he did move very well and was also very bold, so age 6 he was sold to an eventing home. I was competing that horse in Newcomers when he he was 5, and although he was being placed at that level he was very low mileage and only had about £100 on the card when he was sold. I know that his new owners carried on jumping around newcomers for another two winter seasons, because they wanted to keep him ticking over at that level because it was already above the height he was jumping while out eventing in his first two seasons.
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tabithakat64
Well-Known Member
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree although I would probably have chosen to compete HC at novice if Fig were my horse.
I haven't said at any point that anyone who beats me is a bad sportsman, if I had a horse that was capable of competing I would expect myself to be beaten when competing, if this was no longer the case and I was regularly winning classes, I would move up a level.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
Don't rise to the bait, PS.
I doubt Carl and Charlotte went off this week thinking they'd 'have a go', they prepared so they'd have the best chance of winning. Equally, riders from situations where, say, they don't have access to the level of competition available in Western Europe don't begrudge the people that do their success. In fact, if they want to win they figure out how those people are getting it done.
Of course it's a competition, that's why there are prizes!!
To each their own.
I doubt Carl and Charlotte went off this week thinking they'd 'have a go', they prepared so they'd have the best chance of winning. Equally, riders from situations where, say, they don't have access to the level of competition available in Western Europe don't begrudge the people that do their success. In fact, if they want to win they figure out how those people are getting it done.
Of course it's a competition, that's why there are prizes!!
To each their own.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
Don't rise to the bait, PS.
I doubt Carl and Charlotte went off this week thinking they'd 'have a go', they prepared so they'd have the best chance of winning. Equally, riders from situations where, say, they don't have access to the level of competition available in Western Europe don't begrudge the people that do their success. In fact, if they want to win they figure out how those people are getting it done.
Of course it's a competition, that's why there are prizes!!
To each their own.
cheers TS
a good point well made!just one last point before I go and boil my head-Fig did enough to qualify for what we wanted to qualify for, and why shouldnt NMT have her chance of glory?she works flipping hard and took a punt on a horse that wasnt exactly a traditional dressage prospect......... when he was ready he then moved up to aiming at elem championships, and again, will do enough to ensure he is 100% prepared.
In addition to straight BD champs he is being aimed at the SEIB ROR title, so big scores and lots of shiny points needed-again why shouldnt he be allowed to do that? He's a super example of an ex racehorse taking up new challenges. Thats a fairly specific point for ROR horses only, but just a reminder not to criticise something you may not fully understand............
nikkimariet
Well-Known Member
What's your definition of winning?
Just 1st place? Or 1st place with a decent %?
I know of plenty of people who brag 'won my Novice/Elem/Medium/etc' when yes, they were placed 1st. But with say, 55%.....
Thoughts on a postcard?
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
Really? That's crazy. It's almost patronising: 'I'm soooo much better than everyone else that I'd better remove myself from the competition to give the others a chance'.
chestnut cob
Well-Known Member
I've met one. There used to be a woman who did the rounds of tiny little local showing classes with her ID hunter type. I remember being up against her (this must have been 10+ yrs ago, no idea if she's still at it!) once in a show hunter class. She complained (very loudly, in the middle of the ring, then flounced out) to the judge that she wasn't placed one year, "because this horse regularly wins SH classes at county level and has just qualified for X, Y and Z, he's been to HOYS [or something like that]". That, to me, is a pot hunter. How can it possibly be satisfying to take an established horse that regularly competes and wins at county level, to a tiny local show full of kids on the lead rein and people who've just bought their first ever horse, and beat them all every year? She used to do the same classes each year, whilst loudly telling everyone about the horse's next amazing achievement. If she was to be believed, then WTF was she doing at the little local show? It wasn't a young horse needing experience, nor was it a difficult or quirky horse who needed to take a step down. It was a foot perfect, established show horse that regularly competed at the big shows, and won.
That's a bit of a difference to staying at your level BD or BE until you're out of the points for it.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think pot hunting is far more of a problem unaffiliated tbh, it is a different arena with usually no/very few restrictions on combinations competing as organisers want as many entries as possible and it causes fewer arguments about eligibility if no one is excluded.
tabithakat64
Well-Known Member
NMT: First place with a decent percentage of 70+.
Gamebird: Hadn't looked at it as patronising, it's what I have been taught was morally the correct thing to do when I learnt to ride all those years ago.
I can see that there are instances when points/exposure are needed...
PS: I really wasn't aiming to bait/offend you, I was offering my opinion.
Gamebird: Hadn't looked at it as patronising, it's what I have been taught was morally the correct thing to do when I learnt to ride all those years ago.
I can see that there are instances when points/exposure are needed...
PS: I really wasn't aiming to bait/offend you, I was offering my opinion.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
So should Charlotte retire Valegro now because he keeps winning?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The only thing that really annoys me about people competing at a lower level is when their horse is scored higher because it's working at a higher level when that level should not be required for that class. In the affiliated classes I see, a horse in what I believe is a good preliminary outline can't win against one in a novice outline.
For example, two horses may produce an equally balanced, rhythmic and submissive working trot but the one with a preliminary outline of the face slightly in front of the vertical will be marked lower than the one with the face vertical even though the vertical face should not be required at preliminary.
That doesn't seem right to me, and it just leads to escalation where you begin to see horses that are clearly elementary outline beating really good but preliminary outline horses.
This is a problem with the judging, not the competitors. Is it even possible to fix? Is it even a problem?
For example, two horses may produce an equally balanced, rhythmic and submissive working trot but the one with a preliminary outline of the face slightly in front of the vertical will be marked lower than the one with the face vertical even though the vertical face should not be required at preliminary.
That doesn't seem right to me, and it just leads to escalation where you begin to see horses that are clearly elementary outline beating really good but preliminary outline horses.
This is a problem with the judging, not the competitors. Is it even possible to fix? Is it even a problem?
Booboos
Well-Known Member
I've always had a go at a higher level as soon as I could possibly reasonably sting the whole test together because for me competing is fun and I wanted to say (to myself) "I did an elementary!!" even if I came last! As soon as I have a horse that can do any kind of flying change I am entering an AM and I don't care how crap the whole thing looks!
I have know people who do take it a lot more seriously than me, usually professionals. For them every result counts so they don't go out until they are fairly sure they can do well. If your reputation and your income depends on it though it makes sense!
I have know people who do take it a lot more seriously than me, usually professionals. For them every result counts so they don't go out until they are fairly sure they can do well. If your reputation and your income depends on it though it makes sense!
DabDab
Thinks the luddites had a point...
Exactly - so you have no idea whether this woman suffered with crippling nerves and was just a mass of insecurities who made all that up. I'm sure there are genuine 'pot hunters' out there, but my point was that there are all sorts of reasons that people stick at a level that other people think they are too good for and they are then accused of being pot hunters. And I'm sorry, but I think that accusing other people of being pot hunters is in itself incredibly unsportsmanlike.
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meardsall_millie
Well-Known Member
If I was competing at the local 'Have a Go' show on a more experienced or established horse then yes, I absolutely agree with you (I used to go to a local evening dressage 'show' on an established event horse that needed to get in the boards regularly to prevent him getting tense and I would have been embarrassed to go competitively against kids and nervous riders, so of course I went HC) but at an affiliated BD show in a class we're eligible for? No chance!! (and forgive me if I'm wrong but don't you have to ride competitively if you're eligible unless you go 'Training'?). Like Tarrsteps says, does Charlotte need to take Valegro HC at their next GP?!
With regard to competing at a higher level, I tend to agree with PS and Tarrsteps. Whilst I'm happy (with some horses) at the low levels to bump a horse up a bit (a Prelim horse into a Novice class for example), I wouldn't be very happy to shove them up a couple of levels or to do this at the higher levels for the reasons already outlined.
Quite apart from being concerned about the horses future temperament/training, I really wouldn't want to look like a complete plonker in front of a judge I'm likely to see on a regular basis. It doesn't create the best lasting impression!!
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Lolo
Well-Known Member
I don't think it is a problem. That's like saying I should have won a maths scholarship to my 6th form because I was doing the questions well with the GCSE level knowledge I had, rather than the person who applied more sophisticated techniques with a higher level of knowledge. It was, as a competition is, a test of what you can do. The horse in a 'novice' outline was performing at a higher level so gets higher marks...