Wagtail
Horse servant
I'm afraid both MSM and glucosamine are animal derived although you can get veggie glucosamine too.
Do you feed your horses meat?
- Thread starter Wagtail
- Start date
I'm afraid both MSM and glucosamine are animal derived although you can get veggie glucosamine too.
kickonchaps
Well-Known Member
Yeah it should say on the bag, but I've never used A&P so wouldn't like to say what's in it! It's flippin complicated deciphering the feed bag labels though, at one point I'd have read 'calcium carbonate' and thought, brilliant that'll be good for the bones!... Until someone explained calcium carbonate is chalk
And how many feeds is that in?!Grass and hay all the way
Wagtail
Horse servant
Just shows how humans change the way animals eat then. I always thought dogs and foxes were omnivores. Now I have to google it!
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
Yes but to put it into context weren't the cattle feed manufacturers putting huge amounts of brain tissue from sheep into the cattle feed?? We are talking about probably a 1000 of a milligram of animal product that probably isn't even brain matter (but bone/tissue) into a huge tub of joint supplement so that when it is dispensed to our horse by way of a very small scoop it probably isn't even registered in the body anyway and if it is its such a negligible amount it wouldn't cause harm????
I'm more concerned about possible botulism in sour haylage, crazy drivers on the country lanes or whether it will be one of my horses persistent colics that will finish him off than him dying from a BSE type of disease from his joint supplement.
But having said that hens eat meat in the form of slugs/snails/frogs and grass (omnivores) and every now and again they get the odd scrap in our 'kitchen waste' of meat (obviously not slugs - lol but a bit of left over minced meat thats stuck to the potato from the shepherds pie, etc) but if our hens were table birds (for eating) then we would only feed them grain because the responsiblity for other peoples health would be foremost in our minds.
Last edited by a moderator:
Wagtail
Horse servant
Having googled dogs I can confirm that Evelyn is right! Well mostly. Wolves are indeed carnivores though domestic dogs have evolved to be able to cope with an omnivorous diet because of their afinity with humans. The jury is still out but it seems that dogs are omnivores with a strong bias to eating meat. Some are more predisposed than others due to the huge variety of dogs that we have domesticated. However, I am now thinking I am wrong to be feeding all my veg and carbohydrate scraps to my dogs. 
It explains the new theories in feeding dogs that they should only be fed raw meat.
It explains the new theories in feeding dogs that they should only be fed raw meat.Tamima7
New User
ANDY! Have you emailed your friend Ian yet?
tinap
Well-Known Member
Do Bacon flavoured crisps count? cos if u happen to have a bag of those around my boy he will mug you for them!!
Wagtail
Horse servant
Haha no, they are completely veggie. Interestingly, the only crisps that used to have meat based flavouring were Walkers Cheese and Onion! All their meat flavours are veggie. I think they've changed it now though so they are all veggie.
bumblelion
Well-Known Member
That's true! My tb is fed allan and page c+c during the winter months although I am considering going onto the simple system feeds with him and my ID. Looking at putting them onto a joint supp too? Wagtail, is linseed oil the best or the seeds? Or cider vinegar? Thankyou, you just seem quite clued up on the more natural feeds/supps!
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
I too am a vegetarian 34 years now and have not given them cod liver oil . Until she got artheritis and was VERY BAD with it so started her on cortiflex ha 50 pounds every 4 weeks
Then I spoke to Equimins they told me of their product which they make themselves " Flexi Joint" . better than cortiflex as they put more of the active ingredients in
Its brilliant better cost effective . you give less to them she is actually more supple at the age of 23 than she was when on cortiflex. It lasts sooooo much better and this is the only reason why i have to use animal based product if its a case of a shark or having Diamond healthy happy and still doing sponsored rides then the shark looses I would not go back to cortiflex now and i have more pennies in my pockets
cider vinegar is very good for joints and i use flaxeed oil
Last edited:
tinap
Well-Known Member
" Haha no, they are completely veggie. Interestingly, the only crisps that used to have meat based flavouring were Walkers Cheese and Onion! All their meat flavours are veggie. I think they've changed it now though so they are all veggie."
Can't quote on phone! But I've learnt something today lol!!
Can't quote on phone! But I've learnt something today lol!!
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
Oh yes and one more thing when she was on cortiflex vet said she would need 1 bute a day..
when i changed to flexi joint I spoke the David he said
"If you have lubrication in joints from flexi joint there is no pain if there is not pain then you dont need a bute and bi god he was right i weened her off the bute and she remained sound"
when i changed to flexi joint I spoke the David he said
"If you have lubrication in joints from flexi joint there is no pain if there is not pain then you dont need a bute and bi god he was right i weened her off the bute and she remained sound"
Wagtail
Horse servant
I feed linseed oil to my oldie. She is retired though but her pain flare ups (due to a broken shoulder and damaged tendon) have gradually reduced since the injury. I have heard good things about cider vinegar but have not tried it personally. I've a feeling it may not be so palatable for fussy eaters. Though I could be wrong!
Amaranta
Well-Known Member
There is one school of thought that points out that Chondroitin cannot be digested by horses because the molecule is too large to pass through the equine gut wall. Both Glucosamine and MSM are precursers to Chondroitin so there is no real need to feed it anyway.
Yes Glucosamine tends to come from animal sources, mostly shrimp shell or bovine, very little from shark fin enters the equine world.
I would dispute that the majority of horse feeds have animal derivatives in them, joint supplements possibly but not the feeds themselves. The basis for most balancers/nuts for instance is wheat bran or soya oil or even sugar beet. I would be very careful about stating otherwise without definitive proof and I very very much doubt that proof is there. Do you really think that feed companies would be so stupid?
If you are looking for a joint supplement that relys entirely on vegetable products there are lots on the market, here are two to be going on with:
http://www.litovet.co.uk/?gclid=CMyFlbGXzKkCFYUY4QodcnLbMg
http://www.equivetanimalcare.com/harmony/40-harmony-super-ginger-pearl.html
Yes Glucosamine tends to come from animal sources, mostly shrimp shell or bovine, very little from shark fin enters the equine world.
I would dispute that the majority of horse feeds have animal derivatives in them, joint supplements possibly but not the feeds themselves. The basis for most balancers/nuts for instance is wheat bran or soya oil or even sugar beet. I would be very careful about stating otherwise without definitive proof and I very very much doubt that proof is there. Do you really think that feed companies would be so stupid?
If you are looking for a joint supplement that relys entirely on vegetable products there are lots on the market, here are two to be going on with:
http://www.litovet.co.uk/?gclid=CMyFlbGXzKkCFYUY4QodcnLbMg
http://www.equivetanimalcare.com/harmony/40-harmony-super-ginger-pearl.html
bumblelion
Well-Known Member
I shall give the oil a try then, thankyou
team barney
Well-Known Member
I presume the blood is from open wounds? If so it is only natural for any animal to lick a wound as an attempt to clean and sterilise it.
Also prey animals instinctively don't like the scent of blood lingering as it attracts predators, the reason some mares eat their placenta.
dominobrown
Well-Known Member
I beleive (smallish amounts) of Cider Vinegar will actually tempt a fussy feeder. Also meant to be good for their digestive system.
I feed a joint supplement, never thought about it before! Will check though, but does it matter if the glucosimine etc is derived from, if processed etc, will it not have the same chemical compound if in a pure enough form? The impurties coming from animal proteins surely must be so small for a large horse? Horse's must accidently eat insects etc all day long.
Kenzo
Well-Known Member
Apple Cider Vinegar is very good I've found, both for joints and the coat, as well as increasing the appetite. So if you have a fattie and don't want to feed an oil, (specially a fish oil) or indeed increase energy, then I personally do think feeding cider vinegar is a good alternative for the joints but it needs to be introduced gradually as some fussy easter won't touch the feed if fed in the quantity stated straight away.
It also makes your hands and cloths stink if your not used to it, it over powers the usual horsey smell!
It also makes your hands and cloths stink if your not used to it, it over powers the usual horsey smell!
hippo-horse
Well-Known Member
I probably have in the past,in suppliments.I also remember being asked (years ago) to collect egg shells for someone to crush and feed to an old pony.I think they said it was for extra calcium,but I could be wrong,it was in the 80's! Im a bit grossed out at feed companies sneaking animal products into horse feed,it just doesn't seem right.I also had a pony that would steal burgers and other rolls,but I think that she was just greedy,she also stole cans of juice and anything else she could reach
dreamcometrue
Well-Known Member
There are an estimated 3000 invertebrate animals per square metre of land. Inevitably a large number of these will be consumed by your horse during a normal day of grazing. Therefore a horses natural normal food does contain animal products.
jodie3
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty certain that dogs aren't obligate carnivores, I think in the wild they would have predominantly eaten meat but also would have eaten fruits and berries and anything else they could find. Haven't there been quite a few dogs that have managed on a purely vegetarian diet? Cats and ferrets are obligate carnivores.
Fii
Well-Known Member
Dogs are omnivores, in the wild they would eat berries and things as well as meat.
I had a GSD that picked and ate blackberries and strawberries herself straight from the plant.
jrp204
Well-Known Member
Dogs are classed as carnivores, they are from the 'Order' Carnivora, anatomically they are carnivores requiring a high protein diet and can metabolise fat and protein into energy to maintain blood sugar levels.
They are not equipped with large flat molars for grinding up plant matter. Their molars are pointed and situated in a scissors bite to cut meat, bone, and hide.
Quote:" Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches, amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).
Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant mattereven preprocessed plant matterare unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs."
Hope this clarifies things.
They are not equipped with large flat molars for grinding up plant matter. Their molars are pointed and situated in a scissors bite to cut meat, bone, and hide.
Quote:" Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches, amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).
Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant mattereven preprocessed plant matterare unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs."
Hope this clarifies things.
Toffee44
Well-Known Member
Dogs are oppurtunists! They eat what they find, why do you think they eat your socks? They get no nutrition from grains, fruit and veg but they will eat them and Poo them out. Compare a raw fed dog Poo and kibble fed Poo...
Back to horses......mine are grass fed and now I'm off to look in toffees supplement (premier flex)
Back to horses......mine are grass fed and now I'm off to look in toffees supplement (premier flex)
Hullabaloo
Well-Known Member
I'm glad I'm not on your yard! Thankfully my yard owner is happy for owners to make their own judgements on what suppliments they feed their horses.
I do feed an animal based joint suppliment. It does what it says on the tin and helps his joints and my vet is happy for me to use it. My horse's poos are no more smelly or runny than his field mate's who does not receive a suppliment.
The amount of "meat" my horse gets from the small amount of suppliment I give him is in my view negligable and worth it for the benefit he receives.
Wagtail
Horse servant
My yard would not be suitable for you, or you for it. I agree. I don't allow any mistreatment of horses on my yard. Feeding meat to them may not be classed as mistreatment by some, but it is to me. I am not saying people who do it are cruel as they do what they believe is best for their horses, but I think it is fundamentally wrong and I don't want any horses in my care (they are all full or part livery) to be treated with such products, especially as I would be administering them. The liveries are not forced to stay on the yard. I have a waiting list and no one has left in eighteen months so they obviously don't have a problem with it. My clients trust me to look out for their horses and trust my judgement.
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
We have been very feed aware for years, but still made the error of feeding a glucosamine supplement We have stopped feeding it, when we realised that the big mares anxiety coresponded with our beginning to feed the supplement. Having made the decision years ago not to feed cod liver oil etc. we are now kicking ourselves!
We have stopped feeding it, when we realised that the big mares anxiety coresponded with our beginning to feed the supplement. Having made the decision years ago not to feed cod liver oil etc. we are now kicking ourselves!
Hullabaloo
Well-Known Member
My yard would not be suitable for you, or you for it. I agree. I don't allow any mistreatment of horses on my yard. Feeding meat to them may not be classed as mistreatment by some, but it is to me. I am not saying people who do it are cruel as they do what they believe is best for their horses, but I think it is fundamentally wrong and I don't want any horses in my care (they are all full or part livery) to be treated with such products, especially as I would be administering them. The liveries are not forced to stay on the yard. I have a waiting list and no one has left in eighteen months so they obviously don't have a problem with it. My clients trust me to look out for their horses and trust my judgement.
I find your idea of mistreatment very strange - I feed a well know joint suppliment which helps my horse and my vet is happy for me to do so. While you might not agree with me feeding it, inferring that I am mistreating him is way over the top and bordering on offensive. A bit of an overreaction I think!
Wagtail
Horse servant
Read my post again. "I do not believe people who do it are cruel". But yes, I think that feeding meat to horses in whatever form is 'mistreatment' in that it is not natural for them and not good for their digestive system. If I believe it is fundamentally wrong to do such a thing then it follows that I believe it is mistreatment. Mistreatment means treating inappropriately. It is not what I would class as cruelty as it is done under the belief that you are helping your horse. Pin firing of tendons was done for the same reason and I believe that this too is 'mistreatment'. Not all mistreatment results in pain and suffering, but you do not know what long term damage can be done to the digestion system of horses that are loaded with meat based supplements. Who knows, the build up of such products could result in weakening of intestinal walls or contribute to colic. Perhaps someone shuold study it?
Hullabaloo
Well-Known Member
Does that also make riding horses mistreatment? What about shoeing them and keeping them in stables. None of these things are natural for horses.
If we were feeding buckets of the stuff I'd think you had a point, but we are talking very small amounts here - no more than he probably gets hoovering up insects in the grass. Next time I see my old loan horse aged 30, I will check with him how he has coped with being on joint suppliments for the past 12 years. Last I heard he was doing just fine!