Do you feed your horses meat?

[Wagtail]

Does that also make riding horses mistreatment? What about shoeing them and keeping them in stables. None of these things are natural for horses.
If we were feeding buckets of the stuff I'd think you had a point, but we are talking very small amounts here - no more than he probably gets hoovering up insects in the grass. Next time I see my old loan horse aged 30, I will check with him how he has coped with being on joint suppliments for the past 12 years. Last I heard he was doing just fine!

Yes, many people think so and who are we to argue? We all have our boundaries. Why you think that I should feed something to a horse that I believe maybe harmful to them just because I am a YO is beyond me. It is like making someone who thinks shoeing horses is cruel, shoe someone's horse. Do what you want but don't try to tell me what I should or shouldn't do in terms of yard rules. All my liveries (including the one who used to feed the supplement that I banned) are of like mind. She didn't know the supplement contained meat products until I told her and was actually very grateful that I pointed it out. After that, I had it written into the agreement that everyone signs. So everyone is happy.

 

[Luci07]

I think this has raised interesting points and I had never even considered that my horses would be taking in any sort of meat supplements. I have just switched my youngster over to Bluechip and he is looking really well on it but will look at the ingredients more carefully.

I also found the info on the dogs interesting too. I have 2 and one is on a vet recommended diet for mobility (he has displaysia - arthritis, in his elbows) and the other is on James Well Beloved senior biscuits. Both are fed an organic pouch meat mixed in as well as liver biscuits, dental chews and a weekly marrow bone. I moved my younger dog off his diet off Baker biscuits when I got him (its like keeping a child on a diet of big Macs) and moved him onto a better grade diet and the impact was massive. I have been reading a lot about the raw diet but atm my vet likes how my dogs are and says to stay put.

This post has been very interesting. Its one of the reasons I read this forum I thought Wagtail was very clear that she was NOT against people who do feed these, more provoking a discussion. I agree that for the majority, we are probably only feeding a very small amount but it is also something we should be aware of and look out for.

If you just look at what you yourself eat - 5 years ago, would you have bothered to really check the labels? ask where the meat came from? how much meat percentage was in your sausages? I do now! Neither does it cost me any more money, just a little longer to be pickier. Have gone off most ready made dishes unless it specifies british meat etc. Haven't quite graduated to doing this at restaurants but am moving more towards veggie options if not sure. I am not a veggie at home or by choice but am more aware. Besides which I am lucky in that there is a brilliant local butcher AND local shops in my village, stocking local produce and prices are comparable to the big local supermarkets..

 

[JessandCharlie]

I feed maxavita, ie Green Lipped Mussels. It helps my horse, other joint supplements do not work for him, so although it's not ideal, I don't mind too much as he does need the help for his joints. Other than that, no, I don't feed meat.

J&C

 

[JessandCharlie]

at one point I'd have read 'calcium carbonate' and thought, brilliant that'll be good for the bones!... Until someone explained calcium carbonate is chalk And how many feeds is that in?!

Grass and hay all the way

What's wrong with chalk? Would you not let your horse drink chalky water?

I'm doing a project at the moment analysing feeds to see if the mineral content in them is as advertised, that should be interesting

J&C

 

[BonneMaman]

What a strange reply. If you believe it is right to feed meat to horses, then that is up to you. But why the need to get personal?

It really is a shame that these discussions turn like this. Everyone is politely discussing stuff and then someone like you tries to turn it nasty. I usually find this happens when said person runs out of valid arguments or they are a troll.

Actually, I agree with siennasmum - I thought you were being confrontational by saying that we were good horse owners if "you didn't know it was meat based" therefore implying we are bad if we do know. My mare has extremely bad ringbone and I have found that Cortaflex HA is the only supplement that touches it - yes I have tried most of the others. If you have eyes in your head and can read it is very clear on label of this supplement that the ingredients include animal tissue so the choice is very obviously a personal one. I have made this choice and do not appreciate people implying that because I have made this choice I am therefore a bad horse owner. My sole intention is to make my mare comfortable.

 

[Wagtail]

Actually, I agree with siennasmum - I thought you were being confrontational by saying that we were good horse owners if "you didn't know it was meat based" therefore implying we are bad if we do know. My mare has extremely bad ringbone and I have found that Cortaflex HA is the only supplement that touches it - yes I have tried most of the others. If you have eyes in your head and can read it is very clear on label of this supplement that the ingredients include animal tissue so the choice is very obviously a personal one. I have made this choice and do not appreciate people implying that because I have made this choice I am therefore a bad horse owner. My sole intention is to make my mare comfortable.

I think if you read the posts more carefully you will see that the post I refered to was nothing to do with the discussion and all to do with trying to turn the thread personal.

You will do what you believe is best for your horse. I may disagree that it is best for your horse, but it is only my own (and looking at the poll - the majority) opinion. However, I also do things that others may think is mistreating horses. For example, I occasionally use a twitch on the upper lip on certain horses for clipping or veterinary treatment. Some people think it's barbaric. I cannot expect or bully those people into saying that I am not being cruel and that I am a 'good' horse owner. Why should they be made to say that I am if they find the practice cruel? But I know in my own mind that it is not and I believe it is for the good of the horse concerned at the time. Now you obviously believe that you are doing your best for the good of your horse, so why try to make people that disagree with you say you are a 'good' horse owner?

The problem is, people on here and other forums insist on 'blackmailing' people into saying things that they do not agree with for fear that they may cause offence. Questions such as 'So you think I'm a bad horse owner if I feed my horse meat based supplements?' Is one of those questions. It needs answering or else I am being ignorant. If I answer 'yes, it does make you a bad horse owner,' it is sure to cause offence. On this occasion, the person that asked the question stated that she did not know there were meat based products in what she was feeding and so I answered 'no, because you didn't know'. It was an honest answer. You can be as prickly as you like and take offence if you like. I wouldn't bother though, it's only an internet forum.

 

[Wagtail]

I think this has raised interesting points and I had never even considered that my horses would be taking in any sort of meat supplements. I have just switched my youngster over to Bluechip and he is looking really well on it but will look at the ingredients more carefully.

I also found the info on the dogs interesting too. I have 2 and one is on a vet recommended diet for mobility (he has displaysia - arthritis, in his elbows) and the other is on James Well Beloved senior biscuits. Both are fed an organic pouch meat mixed in as well as liver biscuits, dental chews and a weekly marrow bone. I moved my younger dog off his diet off Baker biscuits when I got him (its like keeping a child on a diet of big Macs) and moved him onto a better grade diet and the impact was massive. I have been reading a lot about the raw diet but atm my vet likes how my dogs are and says to stay put.

This post has been very interesting. Its one of the reasons I read this forum I thought Wagtail was very clear that she was NOT against people who do feed these, more provoking a discussion. I agree that for the majority, we are probably only feeding a very small amount but it is also something we should be aware of and look out for.

If you just look at what you yourself eat - 5 years ago, would you have bothered to really check the labels? ask where the meat came from? how much meat percentage was in your sausages? I do now! Neither does it cost me any more money, just a little longer to be pickier. Have gone off most ready made dishes unless it specifies british meat etc. Haven't quite graduated to doing this at restaurants but am moving more towards veggie options if not sure. I am not a veggie at home or by choice but am more aware. Besides which I am lucky in that there is a brilliant local butcher AND local shops in my village, stocking local produce and prices are comparable to the big local supermarkets..

What I like about the answers to this thread is that the way people feed their animals does not necessarily depend on what they eat themselves. We even have a vegetarian that feeds her horse meat based supplements (which surprises me but shows she has overcome her own beliefs for what she believes is best for her horse. And I can say that even though I disagree with her feeding them.)

My sister is a strict vegetarian but feeds her dogs only on raw meat! She thinks it is wrong for humans to eat meat but obviously wants the best for her dogs. I don't eat meat or poultry but I do eat fish (which many of the supplements are derived from).

My vet also advises feeding things such as cortaflex. I told him why I thought this was wrong and he said he hadn't really thought about it that way before! Those who think vets are always right need to have experienced what I have over the years. They seem to get it wrong as often as they get it right. Of course, this will never change until animals learn to talk.

 

[touchstone]

Although if some information is to be believed then with vaccination you may well already be giving animal products to your horses:-



Q. A vaccine contains bacterial, viral or other 'antigenic' material - are other materials included?

A. A range of 'other' substances may be included in animal vaccines, some obscurely named and without clear explanation. A quickly assembled list of current ingredients of dog, cat and horse vaccines (any of which may be incorporated in the dose your animal receives) includes: aluminium, mercury, oil, paraffin oil, patented polymers, acrylics, antibiotics (e.g. gentamycin, polymyxin, amphoteracin B, neomycin, aureomycin, tylosine, natamycine), salts, casein hydrolysate, collagen hydrolysate, sorbitol, sucrose, dextrin, squalene, saponin and derivatives, unspecified surfactants, cholesterol, ovalbumen (egg white), γ-irradiated canine blood serum, canine red blood cells, phosphatidyl choline, formaldehyde, patented oil/surfactant mixes and gelatin. Also not specified are remnants of the cell cultures (see below) on which the viruses are grown in the laboratory. These are from animal tissues (e.g. baby hamster kidney cells). It is worth running an impartial internet search on some of these substances. However, when subjecting your animal to vaccination, it is not simple to discern which particular adjuvants and ancillary substances may be involved in that particular dose. Even your vet is unlikely to know without actively researching the subject and manufacturers may not be very open.

 

[Wagtail]

Although if some information is to be believed then with vaccination you may well already be giving animal products to your horses:-



Q. A vaccine contains bacterial, viral or other 'antigenic' material - are other materials included?

A. A range of 'other' substances may be included in animal vaccines, some obscurely named and without clear explanation. A quickly assembled list of current ingredients of dog, cat and horse vaccines (any of which may be incorporated in the dose your animal receives) includes: aluminium, mercury, oil, paraffin oil, patented polymers, acrylics, antibiotics (e.g. gentamycin, polymyxin, amphoteracin B, neomycin, aureomycin, tylosine, natamycine), salts, casein hydrolysate, collagen hydrolysate, sorbitol, sucrose, dextrin, squalene, saponin and derivatives, unspecified surfactants, cholesterol, ovalbumen (egg white), γ-irradiated canine blood serum, canine red blood cells, phosphatidyl choline, formaldehyde, patented oil/surfactant mixes and gelatin. Also not specified are remnants of the cell cultures (see below) on which the viruses are grown in the laboratory. These are from animal tissues (e.g. baby hamster kidney cells). It is worth running an impartial internet search on some of these substances. However, when subjecting your animal to vaccination, it is not simple to discern which particular adjuvants and ancillary substances may be involved in that particular dose. Even your vet is unlikely to know without actively researching the subject and manufacturers may not be very open.

That's interesting.

However, my objection to feeding meat products to horses is mainly due to my concerns regarding their digestive system. As vaccines go straight into the blood they by-pass this system and should therefore be (hopefully) harmless. Interesting though none the less. It opens up a different side to the argument, especially for those who object because they themselves are vegetarian and don't want to use any animal products for anything they are involved in.

 

[skychick]

I have read all of the posts to this with interest, I'm not vegetarian or not of the trail of thought that I should avoid your cod liver oils etc but it's really interesting to read everyone's views and I experiences, especially as I have a 16yo very good doing tb on a balancer (equilibra) and supplement (supaflex) I give her the supplement due to age, and the fact that she has evented untill 2 tendon injuries (not with me) so I like to try todo my best. She has no treats other than Hilton herballs and carrots as I prefer natural but of anyone can get het to eat anything other than equilibra, supaflex, dengie and carrots I take my hat off to you! She is the fussiest so and so that walks the earth and won't eat an apple unless it's a tesco finest and straight from the supermarket. I'd like to feed her cider vinegar, will she toutch it, no! So supaflex and equilibra and dengie it is!! I have no idea if any of those are natural but she likes them!!

 

[monstermunch]

Ok so this reply is absolutely not aimed at anyone in particular. just food for thought.
perhaps we all look a little too intensively at what is "natural" for horses only when it suits us.
i completely agree that naturally horses were not designed to eat meat, but lets face it, it is not as if we are thowing dead carcuses into our horses fields for them to feed off.
After all:
Is it natural to put shoes on our horses feet? or to ride them?, or to restrict them to fields which possibly get over grazed? or to feed them haylage? or to feed them any supplements? or to lunge them with training aids? or to make then jump big tracks?

You could argue that eveything about a horses life is designed around what we have moulded them to be and what we want them to do as now a "working animal" not a naturally grazing wild horse.

To come back to the point about joint supplements and feeds which contain animal derivatives, it is important to note that marine based sources are NOT classed as animal and are completely different in their make up. I would then argue than any feed or supplement that is "vegeterian" may also contain a load of other rubbish not "natural" for a horses diet. Such as revolting bulking agents, talc, ash, cheap and not very digestible fibres such as mulched up paper.
So really...where do we draw the line??
It is a reasonable debate to have but not one that is as black and white as some people are stating. For those who say it is disgusting to feed marine sourced supplements etc, I would have to ask do you REALLY know what else you are feeding your horse becasue many companies use some shocking ingredients that although not animal based are equally not natural for a horses diet.

There are many drugs that cause harmful side affects to horses which we admister becasue we want the best for our animals. When feeding a Glucosamine based joint supplement there are no noted side affects. Again, where do you draw the line in what is right and wrong for an animal. So do you wait for an athritic condition to become so bad that we use steroids and pain killers that rot the liver and kidneys, or do we maintain them on a supplement that although not 100% natural has far less, if any at all, harmful side affects on our horse?

Occassionally in life, in fact a lot, what is bonified natural really does not hold up well in the field of horses any more. I personally try to ensure that i do not feed my horses anything which does not list ingredients, or contains nasy bulking agents. I also choose to not feed them pre mixed hard feeds. i do however feed them joint supplements becasue I inflict show jumping on their joints, and the preventative and extremely beneficial measures of using this far out weigh any small detail that feeding anything marine is not natural...just as me jumping 1.20m courses is not "natural".

Interesting debate though.

 

[touchstone]

Ok so this reply is absolutely not aimed at anyone in particular. just food for thought.
perhaps we all look a little too intensively at what is "natural" for horses only when it suits us.
i completely agree that naturally horses were not designed to eat meat, but lets face it, it is not as if we are thowing dead carcuses into our horses fields for them to feed off.
After all:
Is it natural to put shoes on our horses feet? or to ride them?, or to restrict them to fields which possibly get over grazed? or to feed them haylage? or to feed them any supplements? or to lunge them with training aids? or to make then jump big tracks?

You could argue that eveything about a horses life is designed around what we have moulded them to be and what we want them to do as now a "working animal" not a naturally grazing wild horse.

To come back to the point about joint supplements and feeds which contain animal derivatives, it is important to note that marine based sources are NOT classed as animal and are completely different in their make up. I would then argue than any feed or supplement that is "vegeterian" may also contain a load of other rubbish not "natural" for a horses diet. Such as revolting bulking agents, talc, ash, cheap and not very digestible fibres such as mulched up paper.
So really...where do we draw the line??
It is a reasonable debate to have but not one that is as black and white as some people are stating. For those who say it is disgusting to feed marine sourced supplements etc, I would have to ask do you REALLY know what else you are feeding your horse becasue many companies use some shocking ingredients that although not animal based are equally not natural for a horses diet.

There are many drugs that cause harmful side affects to horses which we admister becasue we want the best for our animals. When feeding a Glucosamine based joint supplement there are no noted side affects. Again, where do you draw the line in what is right and wrong for an animal. So do you wait for an athritic condition to become so bad that we use steroids and pain killers that rot the liver and kidneys, or do we maintain them on a supplement that although not 100% natural has far less, if any at all, harmful side affects on our horse?

Occassionally in life, in fact a lot, what is bonified natural really does not hold up well in the field of horses any more. I personally try to ensure that i do not feed my horses anything which does not list ingredients, or contains nasy bulking agents. I also choose to not feed them pre mixed hard feeds. i do however feed them joint supplements becasue I inflict show jumping on their joints, and the preventative and extremely beneficial measures of using this far out weigh any small detail that feeding anything marine is not natural...just as me jumping 1.20m courses is not "natural".

Interesting debate though.

^^^^ - Good post.

 

[TGM]

Blimey, there is so much misinformation going on in this thread from a number of posters, that I really do not know where to start and haven't got time or energy to cover them all! I would advise people concerned about this issue not to panic and take things written on the internet as gospel, but to do a bit of intelligent research themselves on the things that they feed.

Just one example of misinformation on this thread, is the reference to 'ash' in horse feeds, in the post above. When 'ash' is mentioned on the analysis label of a feed, it does NOT mean that the remains of a bonfire is added to your pony's coarse mix to bulk it out! The ash % is a means of evaluating the mineral content of a feed and refers to how much non-organic content is left when the organic content is burnt off.

 

[*hic*]

Although if some information is to be believed then with vaccination you may well already be giving animal products to your horses:-



Q. A vaccine contains bacterial, viral or other 'antigenic' material - are other materials included?

A. A range of 'other' substances may be included in animal vaccines, some obscurely named and without clear explanation. A quickly assembled list of current ingredients of dog, cat and horse vaccines (any of which may be incorporated in the dose your animal receives) includes: aluminium, mercury, oil, paraffin oil, patented polymers, acrylics, antibiotics (e.g. gentamycin, polymyxin, amphoteracin B, neomycin, aureomycin, tylosine, natamycine), salts, casein hydrolysate, collagen hydrolysate, sorbitol, sucrose, dextrin, squalene, saponin and derivatives, unspecified surfactants, cholesterol, ovalbumen (egg white), γ-irradiated canine blood serum, canine red blood cells, phosphatidyl choline, formaldehyde, patented oil/surfactant mixes and gelatin. Also not specified are remnants of the cell cultures (see below) on which the viruses are grown in the laboratory. These are from animal tissues (e.g. baby hamster kidney cells). It is worth running an impartial internet search on some of these substances. However, when subjecting your animal to vaccination, it is not simple to discern which particular adjuvants and ancillary substances may be involved in that particular dose. Even your vet is unlikely to know without actively researching the subject and manufacturers may not be very open.

That's interesting.

However, my objection to feeding meat products to horses is mainly due to my concerns regarding their digestive system. As vaccines go straight into the blood they by-pass this system and should therefore be (hopefully) harmless. Interesting though none the less. It opens up a different side to the argument, especially for those who object because they themselves are vegetarian and don't want to use any animal products for anything they are involved in.

I do find this response surprising given that your OP stated:

Anyone doubting just how bad it is to feed meat to horses, even in these forms should remember what happened when we did this to cows.

"What happened we did this to cows" was absolutely nothing to do with their digestive systems but everything to do with the sort of material that could (might) be found in vaccines

 

[PolarSkye]

Do I feed my horse meat? Not knowingly no . . . I give him/allow him to eat grass, hay, Alfa A Molasses Free and Blue Chip Original and the odd polo, apple, turnip or carrot . . . but he has been known to snaffle the odd sausage roll at hunt meets and he once swiped my prawn salad sandwich - does that count?

P

 

[why1040]

A lot of good sense which I've snipped for brevity

I was trying to figure out what it was about this thread that was bothering me. It finally hit me while I was reading @monstermunch's post.

Yes, we should absolutely be aware of what it is we're feeding our horses.

No, horses weren't "designed" to eat meat products, though there is no current evidence that it is in any way harmful for the small amounts of supplements etc that are fed. And pure logic shows that they must ingest some animal matter in the form of bugs as they graze...heaven knows how many bugs I've swallowed just while riding!

Yes, it's a good idea to keep their feed as natural as possible (I said this very recently on another thread by the OP).

What bugs me is the black and white stance of the OP. I am not saying she can't ban such supplements on her yard-clearly she can do what she likes so long as she's upfront about it with her liveries. But what happens when a vet recommends or even prescribes something that has animal products in it? Does the OP also ban all medications taken by mouth, as horses are not designed to eat chemicals either? Where is the line drawn between supplements, nutraceuticals and medications? Would she really prohibit the livery from feeding their horse what it needs to control a condition, perhaps remain pain-free? Does the OP know what is in every medicine, every supplement, every item that the horse eats?

Thankfully, my YO doesn't get involved in what I feed my horse. I don't expect her to supply my feed, she doesn't mind what I buy.

 

[AmyMay]

That's interesting.

However, my objection to feeding meat products to horses is mainly due to my concerns regarding their digestive system. As vaccines go straight into the blood they by-pass this system and should therefore be (hopefully) harmless. Interesting though none the less.

Actually your education background and ability to research should lead you to a completely different conclusion......

 

[Ibblebibble]

i already asked the question about medicines/chemicals on another thread but don't think i got a reply