Do you give notice if the horse has been sold??

The YO is in breach of contract. If everything you say is true there is no way in hell they would get a penny more out of me. If they took me to the small claims, you have photos, no doubt emails/texts and the statement from the buyer. I would then counter claim if you can do that, or take the YO to the small claims for the enormous loss of value of your horse.
 
I'm Dun said:
The YO is in breach of contract. If everything you say is true there is no way in hell they would get a penny more out of me. If they took me to the small claims, you have photos, no doubt emails/texts and the statement from the buyer. I would then counter claim if you can do that, or take the YO to the small claims for the enormous loss of value of your horse.
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The friend who has bought him suggested exactly this to me and they told me if it was them they wouldn’t be paying a penny more either. So I’m very conflicted because I feel I have more than enough evidence to back up anything she tries to throw at me, but as there’s a contract I’m not sure where it would lie legally
 
Jenko109 said:
Oh pull the other one.

You have kept the horse there for ages and not moved him so you were clearly happy with his care through this biblical winter that we have just had.

Just pay what you owe and stop trying to obtain justification to be a bad person from people on the internet.

How you could even consider putting him up for sale or quite how anyone would pay for him if he was in the condition you claim, is frankly farcical.
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1000% this
 
If you have goods or service, you either complain at the time, and not use the service or you are in breach of the contract.
As Judge Judy says you eat the steak you have to pay for it, I always wonder if this why they ask if you meal is OK just after you start it, they you have no excuse for not paying.
companieshouse.blog.gov.uk

How to complain if you’re not satisfied with a service – Companies House

A guest blog post by Citizens Advice. Find out how to complain about a service if you feel it has not been carried out with reasonable care and skill.
companieshouse.blog.gov.uk companieshouse.blog.gov.uk
'One important thing to remember - if a business is told that their service was good enough when it was carried out, customers do not have the legal right to get it done again or get a discount.'

If the YO is only aware that the horse is being sold while it is on their yard, have you told them you are disatisfied in their service in writing. I am just worried your friend will turn up to collect, and it will all get nasty. Or they may be lovely people and let you off the ££ months livery.
 
I think the quality of the service you received has nothing to do with the need to pay, (if you dont like the service you either try to resolve or move) With regard to reducing money due perhaps you could have a discussion with YO if reasonable about whether the month notice is just for portion of full livery which included rent of stable, but may offer you a reduction on the feed/bedding and services included as part of this package as you will no longer be using. It will take the YO time to find a suitable replacement and therefore the 'months notice' is to protect their income stream and justified, but perhaps a reduction could be negotiated? :)

EDIT - the loss of weight could be worms related especially if its a young horse so be worth a check on that as this may not be something that is part of the 'full livery'
 
In answer to your question then yes, you should give notice if the horse is sold. If however the yard was immediately able to replace your horse with another livery then it would be worth a chat with them.

Was you horse on sales livery? I can't understand how you were trying to sell your horse if you only saw him every couple of months.
 
You are conflating 2 issues: not happy with the care and 'but she knew he was for sale and how could I tell when he would sell'. The latter issue is not her problem. The 4 weeks notice gives her time to replace you. It is irrelevant whether horse moves out 1,2,3 or 4 weeks early.

Re the former issue - you needed to address this as and when concerns arose. I was VERY unhappy with the care Amber got at weaning livery. I picked her up early and I will never use that place again, and have warned others off it based on my experiences ..... but I still paid what I owed.

It is up to you whether you wish to not pay with the risks being in breach of contract involves, but don't kid yourself that you don't owe the money. If it went to small claims, the timing would seem very suspect - all of a sudden care is sub-standard. Not saying that is how it is, but is definitely how it looks. It does appear to most neutrals on here that you don't want to pay for an empty stable and the care issue is an excusde not to pay now he's sold. Given that small claims tends to be around common-sense 'reasonableness', I'd not chance it personally. Plus I would not want the hassle nor to get a repulaiton in the horse world as a non payer.
 
Was he on sales livery in which case you livery contract probably ends with his sale and the payment of agreed commission with agent.? If not how could you expect to sell him if you were 3 hours away?
 
It's 2 different issues. Yes you owe under the notice agreement, the fact the horse was for sale makes no difference apart from the fact you couldn't plan as you wouldn't know when it would sell.

Then there's the issue of substandard care and withholding livery because of that. Even that wouldn't be automatic and should have been raised at the time.

To give a parallel. If you were renting a house and there were issues and it was substandard, you are still liable for the rent and shouldn't withhold it.
 
Has the horse been wormed, seen the dentist etc. If the horse is on full livery then complain to them that they haven't looked after the horse properly. You would probably need a vet to give you a independent report even though its in front of your eyes.

I wouldn't be paying full livery for a horse that is that thin.
 
Kaylum said:
Has the horse been wormed, seen the dentist etc. If the horse is on full livery then complain to them that they haven't looked after the horse properly. You would probably need a vet to give you a independent report even though its in front of your eyes.

I wouldn't be paying full livery for a horse that is that thin.
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Even if your horse is on full livery it is the owners responsibility of the horses welfare, visiting a horse once every 3 months means you can't possibly know how the horse is being cared for.

Bottom line is of you don't like the full livery service move the horse.
 
HoovesandHay said:
The friend who has bought him suggested exactly this to me and they told me if it was them they wouldn’t be paying a penny more either. So I’m very conflicted because I feel I have more than enough evidence to back up anything she tries to throw at me, but as there’s a contract I’m not sure where it would lie legally
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If you have all the evidence that the horse hasn’t been properly cared for why haven’t you done anything before now? Poor horse. You as the owner are responsible for the welfare of the horse and you should have checked on it more often, if not in person, get the yard owner to send photos or videos. Pay what you owe and chalk it up to experience.
 
Pinkvboots said:
Even if your horse is on full livery it is the owners responsibility of the horses welfare, visiting a horse once every 3 months means you can't possibly know how the horse is being cared for.

Bottom line is of you don't like the full livery service move the horse.
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Thats not true. If you leave your horses day to day care with the yard its their responsibility. Lots of people leave their horses at full livery and rarely go. Mine was at an amazing yard and I didn't see him for months. He lost a tiny bit of weight, they called, talked it through, then sent photos, and then we worked out a plan. And were are talking a TB in Feb dropping a bit of condition but still being fine. Thats the service you should be able to expect if the yard has sole care of the horse.

This YO lied about his condition when asked, so either didn't know or was trying to cover it up. Totally unacceptable in either circumstance.
 
There are two different issues going on here, but I'm going to tackle the accusations OP has levied against the YO for, what amounts to, animal neglect.

The horse being on full livery does not absolve the owner of their duty of care. Assuming the OP is in England, the following may be useful should they wish to pursue a legal case against the yard owner to recoup livery fees paid:

Under various animal welfare legislation such as the Animal Welfare Act 2006, The Animal Welfare (Licensing of Activities Involving Animals) (England) Regulations 2018, and the Control of Horses Act (2015), whilst an owner will always be responsible for an animal, the person who is in charge of the animal- such as a livery yard owner- even if this is only temporary, can also be responsible. Therefore the person who is responsible for the care of the equine could potentially be found guilty under animal welfare offences if they act or fail to prevent the horse from suffering either through their own negligence of failing to provide the appropriate care, or a safe environment, or if they fail to take the necessary action following concerns on welfare provided by others responsible for the equines on their premises.
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Source: https://www.seib.co.uk/2024/04/10/duty-of-care-to-equines-as-a-livery-yard-owner/

In either case, you need to prioritise. Pay the notice period, keep everything in writing and get the poor horse safe and comfortable first. Recoup livery fees later once you've gathered a case against the YO. Don't let the horse suffer for longer over a prolonged livery dispute.
 
Being pragmatic, I would get the horse off the yard and definitely on his way to his new home, then approach YO to negotiate a discounted notice period, on the basis that you realise the stable might not be filled for the month but the horse won't need bedding, feed or any services. If YO is difficult about the reduction, I would then mention my evidence of lack of day to day care.
 
With some of the replies on this thread you'd think it was illegal to put a horse on full livery and live hundreds of miles away, or abroad, or be too busy looking after your own or other people's health or tied up with work or ......

Of course you should be able to leave a horse on full livery without visiting it.
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ycbm said:
With some of the replies on this thread you'd think it was illegal to put a horse on full livery and live hundreds of miles away, or abroad, or be too busy looking after your own or other people's health or tied up with work or ......

Of course you should be able to leave a horse on full livery without visiting it.
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Absolutely we have had a few like that. It's what owners pay for.
 
I'm Dun said:
Thats not true. If you leave your horses day to day care with the yard its their responsibility. Lots of people leave their horses at full livery and rarely go. Mine was at an amazing yard and I didn't see him for months. He lost a tiny bit of weight, they called, talked it through, then sent photos, and then we worked out a plan. And were are talking a TB in Feb dropping a bit of condition but still being fine. Thats the service you should be able to expect if the yard has sole care of the horse.

This YO lied about his condition when asked, so either didn't know or was trying to cover it up. Totally unacceptable in either circumstance.
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I'm Dun said:
Thats not true. If you leave your horses day to day care with the yard its their responsibility. Lots of people leave their horses at full livery and rarely go. Mine was at an amazing yard and I didn't see him for months. He lost a tiny bit of weight, they called, talked it through, then sent photos, and then we worked out a plan. And were are talking a TB in Feb dropping a bit of condition but still being fine. Thats the service you should be able to expect if the yard has sole care of the horse.

This YO lied about his condition when asked, so either didn't know or was trying to cover it up. Totally unacceptable in either circumstance.
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It's not there sole responsibility if the horse is not being looked after it's up to the owner to sort it out, not just leave the horse there and hope for the best.
 
Pinkvboots said:
It's not there sole responsibility if the horse is not being looked after it's up to the owner to sort it out, not just leave the horse there and hope for the best.
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What do you think people pay for full livery for? It's because they can't, or don't want to, take day to day responsibility for the horse.

You ought to be able to put a horse into full livery and trust it will be well looked after for you if you never see it from one end of the year to the next. It's not "hoping for the best" it's paying for a service.
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ycbm said:
What do you think people pay for full livery for? It's because they can't, or don't want to, take day to day responsibility for the horse.

You ought to be able to put a horse into full livery and trust it will be well looked after for you if you never see it from one end of the year to the next. It's not "hoping for the best" it's paying for a service.
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Absolutely the owner should be able to trust a full livery yard; sadly they aren’t always as good as we would want and responsible owners should take some care, whatever the legal position.

However in this particular case the OP does say that the horse only dropped weight in the last month, which does imply that he was being well enough looked after for 5 of the 6 months. So her argument can only be about one month of neglect, assuming she can prove it.
 
ycbm said:
With some of the replies on this thread you'd think it was illegal to put a horse on full livery and live hundreds of miles away, or abroad, or be too busy looking after your own or other people's health or tied up with work or ......

Of course you should be able to leave a horse on full livery without visiting it.
.
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Not illegal no, but clearly not in the best interests of this horse. Whilst it may be the case that you *should* be able to trust them to take full responsibility for the care of the horse and not need to check on it’s welfare, this is a perfect example of why that isn’t a good idea. A condition score of 1, borderline 0 is neglect.
 
If the condition score is 1-0, this hasn't happened in just a month, surely?

If you had a child in nursery, you wouldn't expect to need to check during the day to make sure things are okay as while you are not there, the child is the responsibility of the nursery. However, if you saw your child not being looked after, you wouldn't carry on paying for the service and dropping them off there. If you have continued to pay and use the service despite the lack of care, you've essentially accepted this so I don't see grounds for refund or allowing you to not pay for your contracted notice period.

It's like going out for a meal, eating the whole thing and saying "I'm not paying because it didn't taste very nice".

If you rented a house and the service was bad, you'd still be liable for rent and notice period providing the house wasn't uninhabitable. The service is a separate issue.
 
ycbm said:
With some of the replies on this thread you'd think it was illegal to put a horse on full livery and live hundreds of miles away, or abroad, or be too busy looking after your own or other people's health or tied up with work or ......

Of course you should be able to leave a horse on full livery without visiting it.
.
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You absolutely should be able to, but OP is accusing the YO of neglect. If they pursue it, defence are going to ask how long this has been going on for, and if the owner hasn't visited over that argued time period, it's going to be hard for OP to prove their monthly fee was not covering the level of service and care their contract stipulates.
 
equinerebel said:
You absolutely should be able to, but OP is accusing the YO of neglect. If they pursue it, defence are going to ask how long this has been going on for, and if the owner hasn't visited over that argued time period, it's going to be hard for OP to prove their monthly fee was not covering the level of service and care their contract stipulates.
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This. And it appears from some of the OP's info that this was a known issue but continued to pay and use the service.
 
To add, because the timeline isn't clear, if OP has visited during the specified time period of (alleged) neglect, was not happy with the level of care and service but has paid livery before selling the horse, that's another complication entirely and I don't feel they would have a viable case.

If they hadn't visited, they do have a case, but it might be difficult to prove the horses deterioration is entirely the YO's fault.
 
ycbm said:
What do you think people pay for full livery for? It's because they can't, or don't want to, take day to day responsibility for the horse.

You ought to be able to put a horse into full livery and trust it will be well looked after for you if you never see it from one end of the year to the next. It's not "hoping for the best" it's paying for a service.
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Well yes that's the concept but it doesn't always turn out like that and to be honest I just wouldn't put that much trust in people but that's just me perhaps.
 
When did you write to the yard owner telling them about the sub standard care and what you were going to do if it didn’t improve? What did they respond , how much time did you give them to act on this? What did you do in the mean time to safeguard your horse knowing it had sub standard care?

These are the sorts of questions that would be needed to be answered but it is 2 separate cases. You need to pay the rent - full stop. The other is a claim against the yard which would be a counter claim to the action… and without really good evidence (any animal can get sick and 1 month doesn’t prove anything) you won’t win it will just seem like a scheme not to pay your notice period
 
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