Do You Smack your horse?

So not really cured then Wagtail.

Specifically, in that situation, I wouldn't recommend pushing his nose away because it becomes a colt see saw game.
I'd scratch and rub his nose every time he came into my space with it looking to nip. So instead of pushi his mussel away get really busy with it. They soon get fed up with that and pack the nipping in
 
Pale Rider said:
So not really cured then Wagtail.

Specifically, in that situation, I wouldn't recommend pushing his nose away because it becomes a colt see saw game.
I'd scratch and rub his nose every time he came into my space with it looking to nip. So instead of pushi his mussel away get really busy with it. They soon get fed up with that and pack the nipping in
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Yes, sorry, we tried that for a bit. Owner is into Parelli and her instructor advised it. We did it for a couple of weeks and it just made him quicker with his nips. Would bite then leap away :(
 
Pale Rider said:
So not really cured then Wagtail.

Specifically, in that situation, I wouldn't recommend pushing his nose away because it becomes a colt see saw game.
I'd scratch and rub his nose every time he came into my space with it looking to nip. So instead of pushi his mussel away get really busy with it. They soon get fed up with that and pack the nipping in
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Agreed. I've used that with a couple of nippy horses. I can't remember if it was Buck B or Steve Halfpenny who gave me the idea. Could this be anything to do with the fact that one then developed a liking for having his ears scrumbled??
 
I had a large 10 month old colt threaten me this afternoon. I didn't want to hit him (he isn't mine, I don't want to scare him) I did grab a handful of snow and chuck it at him to have him back away from me. He was simply testing to see if he could get me to move. In other circumstances I would happily follow this up with a well timed smack to really stop this kind of behaviour in it;s tracks & prevent it escalating.
We have a youngster who only has to have a gentle verbal reminder to get his attention/compliance - you would never hit him or really raise you voice. Another gelding is an out and out bully I wish he had been thoroughly smacked as a baby - he might have some respect now instead of permanently pushing the boundaries. My very dominant mare hasn't had a hand raised to her more than a couple of times in 18 years and is the most obedient horse imaginable.

All horses are different, some do require more forceful handling. i have had so many horses through my hands over the years, almost without exception those owned by people who are against being firm, will walk all over their owners and have little respect.

I would love to see some of the experts on here who advocate never raising a hand to a horse, managing a big, strong, dominant young sporthorse and would love to see some evidence that they have done so in the past before they get judgemental about how people manage their horses.
 
Wow, this thread is fast-moving.

I find that a lot of people have problems with their horses' behaviours simply because they have no idea how to read a horse, and because they fail to handle the horse appropriately at all times.

Horses are very quick to take advantage of any situation where they can evade or take control of a situation, and humans often allow something to 'go'wrong' purely because they failed to pay attention.

Take a couple of examples I witnessed recently on a yard I was visiting...

The first one was a girl bringing a horse in from a field with nearly a dozen other horses in it. She walked out and caught her mare and, as she did so, her phone rang. She immediately answered the phone which meant that she had to put a white rope halter on with one hand. What she didn't notice was that she'd failed to get the poll piece of the halter over the mare's offside ear, resulting in the ear being folded over. Chatting away on her phone, the girl started to walk toward the gate. The mare didn't like the halter over her ear and, as the girl moved off, the mare threw her head about. The girl kept her phone to her ear, turned round, and shouted 'come on you b1tch' whilst yanking on the halter. Of course, the mare pulled back, so the girl slapped her across the neck with the end of the rope, the mare shot forward, and they set off at a smart walk to the gate, the girl still on the phone and the halter still over the mare's ear.

The other scenario was a girl trying to lift droppings out from under her gelding who was tied short to the wall. She yelled 'get over' and tried to shove the horse away. He leaned on her and stepped on the end of the shovel with his near hind hoof. The girl let the shovel go and slapped her horse hard on the neck. As he was tied short (nothing wrong with that) he was unable to take avoiding action, so he came round on her with his quarters, then, when she slapped him again, pulled back and went back on his hocks, then shot forward and stood trembling when the shovel clattered across the floor.

Would any horse hitters care to dissect either of those instances and offer advice?
 
AengusOg, in your first scenario yes the girl was complacent however her horse, had it been taught to lead properly, shouldn't have been bothered by the halter half on, as it would be walking steadily by her side. I doubt any of my horses would have reacted at all to this situation as many of them wear slip-ear bridles and the ones who don't have no pressure on them as they walk properly by my side. The second scenario I'm having trouble actually figuring out the placement of everything so have no comments.
 
Nah said:
I was smacked a few times as a child. Didn't scare me and my behaviour didn't get worse. I was a good kid and I feel I'm a good young adult too!
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I was just thinking the same! I was smacked and my OH had cane at school(not saying that is right) but we turned out ok and no worse off for it(I am sure a few of the kids nowadays could do with a good smack). Now my own kids probably got a slap(not smacked) on their hand for trying to ie stick their fingers in plug sockets after being told NO etc(yes I had the protectors that the monkeys removed). Both are normal kids. And if you watch horses with mothers they do NIP their offspring to keep them in check, dogs do the same. I think its doing it for the right reason and not just out of your own masterful anger that is the dividing line. I too have had horses that I would not whack as I would be worse off. I do take the view the horses are a lot stronger than us but dont realise their own strength hence some do need to be kept in check etc. Am sure this is why there are lots of ruined horses around as people have been too soft and too wishy washy and think they are cuddly animals and then get frightened of them. Horse takes over!Ruined.
 
AengusOg said:
Wow, this thread is fast-moving.

I find that a lot of people have problems with their horses' behaviours simply because they have no idea how to read a horse, and because they fail to handle the horse appropriately at all times.

Horses are very quick to take advantage of any situation where they can evade or take control of a situation, and humans often allow something to 'go'wrong' purely because they failed to pay attention.

Take a couple of examples I witnessed recently on a yard I was visiting...

The first one was a girl bringing a horse in from a field with nearly a dozen other horses in it. She walked out and caught her mare and, as she did so, her phone rang. She immediately answered the phone which meant that she had to put a white rope halter on with one hand. What she didn't notice was that she'd failed to get the poll piece of the halter over the mare's offside ear, resulting in the ear being folded over. Chatting away on her phone, the girl started to walk toward the gate. The mare didn't like the halter over her ear and, as the girl moved off, the mare threw her head about. The girl kept her phone to her ear, turned round, and shouted 'come on you b1tch' whilst yanking on the halter. Of course, the mare pulled back, so the girl slapped her across the neck with the end of the rope, the mare shot forward, and they set off at a smart walk to the gate, the girl still on the phone and the halter still over the mare's ear.

The other scenario was a girl trying to lift droppings out from under her gelding who was tied short to the wall. She yelled 'get over' and tried to shove the horse away. He leaned on her and stepped on the end of the shovel with his near hind hoof. The girl let the shovel go and slapped her horse hard on the neck. As he was tied short (nothing wrong with that) he was unable to take avoiding action, so he came round on her with his quarters, then, when she slapped him again, pulled back and went back on his hocks, then shot forward and stood trembling when the shovel clattered across the floor.

Would any horse hitters care to dissect either of those instances and offer advice?
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Neither horse should have been hit! That is precisely what I meant when I said it takes skill and experience to know when hitting a horse is appropriate or not. Far too many slap happy people out there who hit first and ask questions afterwards. It all boils down to the same thing, poor horsemanship. :mad:

ETA: Hitting a horse should never be with a raised hand. Hitting a horse should never be in 'reflex' or temper/annoyance. Hitting a horse should be well timed, single slap to shoulder or chest, or upwards slap with back of the hand to the nose. It is not something that usually ever needs repeating.
 
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indie999 said:
Am sure this is why there are lots of ruined horses around as people have been too soft and too wishy washy and think they are cuddly animals and then get frightened of them. Horse takes over!Ruined.
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I totally agree with you here. Nothing to do with smacking horses or not but the vast majority of the horses we get in for training are basically sound horses who are owned by people who don't have enough experience to own horses and are way too soft with them so yes the horses do take the lead and they get away with it because the owner doesn't know how to take charge (again, I'm not speaking about hitting the horse, just taking control). These same horses by the end of 30 or 60 days are great equine citizens and off they go back to their owners who generally send them back again the following spring because they are having the same problems again. Once in a while an owner will watch, listen and learn how to make life agreeable for both horse and owner, but many others don't no matter how often you tell them how to avoid certain situations.
 
AengusOg - I wouldn't have hit the first horse. Not at all, but agree with whoever said it should be able to lead properly, even with a headcollar like that. Had I witnessed it, I might have been tempted to make her aware of the fact her headcollar wasn't on properly. I know I wouldn't take offence if someone pointed that out to me, I would be pleased.

2nd horse, hmm...I wouldn't have slapped him on the neck! Mixed signals and it was hardly the horses fault. I would have attempted to hold the end of the shovel and elbow/shove him on the rear to get him off it. At least, I know Ned would respond to that. (By elbow, I mean a continuous push, not a jab)
 
Obviously the lack of oxygen up there on the high moral ground is affecting some people's ability to form a rational communication with the rest of the world. In the REAL world, with actual real horses and their often less than perfect owners, some of us have to affect changes in behaviour that actually work, for reasons of safety, effectiveness and practicality. Some horses, for whatever reasons - and I don't especially care what these may be - sometimes need a quick reminder; most horses, once they have got the hang of things, rarely or never do. It is my aim to produce horses of the latter type for everyone's (horse and human) future happiness and serenity.
 
Smacking can work, i.e. be effective in stopping a behaviour - no doubt about that. In that respect, I disagree with Pale Rider.

On the other hand, one sees it overused, and used ineffectually, and used in situations where a different action would have been more appropriate, and situations arise which could be avoided in the first place. None of us is perfect though - I'm certainly not! (see below)

The problem with smacking is it's a risky thing to do. Get it wrong and you can end up with a bigger problem than you started with. Horses are incredibly forgiving of our mistakes, but not infinitely so. Smacking can be damaging and counterproductive, even a one-off - though often the damage is more insidious. Sometimes the horse simply becomes desensitized to attempts to punish that are too feeble.

My aversion to hitting horses stems from a dreadful mistake I made not long after I started. Due to my inexperience, I allowed a horse to bite me. It wasn't done particularly aggressively, but d*mn it hurt! So I reacted by smacking the horse across the face with my hand. In anger. In that moment I felt entirely justified. However, as a result of this one-off response, I couldn't get near this horse again for quite a while and it took several days to regain the level of trust that I had worked so patiently to build up previously. What a bl**dy fool I was.

Such was my feeling of annoyance -- and guilt -- at what I had done, replaying the event over and over in my mind's eye, that I resolved never to make that mistake again. Needless to say I did continue to smack horses, with admittedly greater success - but my motivation to reduce my reliance on this convenient measure meant I did it less and less as time went by. And as I discovered and practiced ways to avoid overt physical punishment, the less it seemed to be needed. The nature of punishment very soon changed too. It became as close as I could make it to a direct consequence of a horse's action, devoid of any emotional element, and nothing like a reprimand. Consequently, I firmly believe that smacking is something worth trying to avoid - something to work at avoiding.

So while I would "never say never", smacking isn't something I do freely. I know what can happen when it goes wrong, both from personal experience, and from observing others in situations just like Aengus Og's scenarios - which regrettably are all too common.
 
cptrayes said:
It's not like smacking a child -children are fragile, horses aren't, children don't have skin an inch thick, horses do, adults don't routinely biff each other to tell people what to do, adult horses do so it's a language that they fully understand

and they don't get worse. Used at the right time and in the right way, so they understand what behaviours you want them to change, they get better.
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I agree with this. In herd behaviour a senior horse reprimands a lower ranked horse for misbehaviour. That doesn't make the horse scared, it makes it respect (I don't mean to personify but that's the only word I can think of to explain it). I don't not smack regulary no more than my mum smacked us, I am not frightened of my mum, and my mares are not afraid of me.

My horses are well cared for, usually gentle and well behaved but like the best behaved they have blips where a telling off is needed, in my case a smack, once, to the shoulder and a firm no, not a beating like the pc brigade are making out, I don't go in there all wailing and screaming with rage and belt them about their person because I am frustrated...to be honest I am never frustrated by my horses because as I said they are generally well behaved and gentle.
 
Wagtail said:
Neither horse should have been hit! That is precisely what I meant when I said it takes skill and experience to know when hitting a horse is appropriate or not. Far too many slap happy people out there who hit first and ask questions afterwards. It all boils down to the same thing, poor horsemanship. :mad:

ETA: Hitting a horse should never be with a raised hand. Hitting a horse should never be in 'reflex' or temper/annoyance. Hitting a horse should be well timed, single slap to shoulder or chest, or upwards slap with back of the hand to the nose. It is not something that usually ever needs repeating.
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I agree with this ^^^^
 
Spring Feather said:
AengusOg, in your first scenario yes the girl was complacent however her horse, had it been taught to lead properly, shouldn't have been bothered by the halter half on, as it would be walking steadily by her side. I doubt any of my horses would have reacted at all to this situation as many of them wear slip-ear bridles and the ones who don't have no pressure on them as they walk properly by my side. The second scenario I'm having trouble actually figuring out the placement of everything so have no comments.
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Both scenarios are highly typical of everyday life on yards all over the country...is my point. Owners/handlers of horses expecting too much of their horses, failing to concentrate fully on the task in hand (in the first instance), not having properly trained and prepared them (in the second), then physically abusing them for their own failings.

Neither horse had been properly prepared for what had been expected of it. Very few horses are given even a basic level of simple training, such as yielding to pressure, which would set them up for a life where they respected their handlers and behaved well.

I frequently see horses handled by inept inattentive and complacent owners, and getting slapped about for making mistakes or taking advantage of situations. Horses are inclined to respond and react with predictability if handled and trained with compassion, consistency, and knowledge. Any unpredictability in horses is due to human failure to understand and prepare them.

My point is that there is no excuse, other than ignorance of a better way, for setting horses up for a fall. It's like sitting on one's @rse all day while the kids try to bake the cake you've requested, without any recipe or advice, then belting them for making a mess in the kitchen.

The trouble is, very few people actually accept that there is a better way, and tend to view anyone who declares that there is as a fluffy, not-really-in-touch-with-reality weirdo...or so it seems from this thread.
 
fburton said:
Smacking can work, i.e. be effective in stopping a behaviour - no doubt about that. In that respect, I disagree with Pale Rider.

On the other hand, one sees it overused, and used ineffectually, and used in situations where a different action would have been more appropriate, and situations arise which could be avoided in the first place. None of us is perfect though - I'm certainly not! (see below)

The problem with smacking is it's a risky thing to do. Get it wrong and you can end up with a bigger problem than you started with. Horses are incredibly forgiving of our mistakes, but not infinitely so. Smacking can be damaging and counterproductive, even a one-off - though often the damage is more insidious. Sometimes the horse simply becomes desensitized to attempts to punish that are too feeble.

My aversion to hitting horses stems from a dreadful mistake I made not long after I started. Due to my inexperience, I allowed a horse to bite me. It wasn't done particularly aggressively, but d*mn it hurt! So I reacted by smacking the horse across the face with my hand. In anger. In that moment I felt entirely justified. However, as a result of this one-off response, I couldn't get near this horse again for quite a while and it took several days to regain the level of trust that I had worked so patiently to build up previously. What a bl**dy fool I was.

Such was my feeling of annoyance -- and guilt -- at what I had done, replaying the event over and over in my mind's eye, that I resolved never to make that mistake again. Needless to say I did continue to smack horses, with admittedly greater success - but my motivation to reduce my reliance on this convenient measure meant I did it less and less as time went by. And as I discovered and practiced ways to avoid overt physical punishment, the less it seemed to be needed. The nature of punishment very soon changed too. It became as close as I could make it to a direct consequence of a horse's action, devoid of any emotional element, and nothing like a reprimand. Consequently, I firmly believe that smacking is something worth trying to avoid - something to work at avoiding.

So while I would "never say never", smacking isn't something I do freely. I know what can happen when it goes wrong, both from personal experience, and from observing others in situations just like Aengus Og's scenarios - which regrettably are all too common.
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I like this, sums it up for me.
 
Wagtail said:
...it takes skill and experience to know when hitting a horse is appropriate or not. Far too many slap happy people out there who hit first and ask questions afterwards. It all boils down to the same thing, poor horsemanship. :mad:

ETA: Hitting a horse should never be with a raised hand. Hitting a horse should never be in 'reflex' or temper/annoyance. Hitting a horse should be well timed, single slap to shoulder or chest, or upwards slap with back of the hand to the nose. It is not something that usually ever needs repeating.
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EXACTLY! What I've been trying to say. JFTR, even though I've been branded a horse-beater in some quarters, I don't use a whip for anything other than for directing and indicating in my groundwork, and haven't carried a whip when riding for thirty years!
 
Yes when my small mare has hay and another horse leaves their pile to help her she snaps or kicks out and they leave. My herd is just five but they maintain a hierarchy like any other....

Maybe I am a sad sac who sits watching her horses too much but that's how you learn about them...
 
But i think if you read through this thread you will see that the majority of people say that they do, but rarely, which seems to say to me that A. It works, and B. People are judicious in the application of said smack. No one has advocated a beating as a training method; perhaps because beating and frightening horses just plain doesn't work. And soppy petting and lack of boundaries doesn't work either.
 
Fburton. I see it regularly.
I have a video from last weekend of gelding winding up a mare. Little nips and shed bite back not amused, ended up taking a firm bite under his armpit, at which point he moved on to wind up the next mare!

If there is something new in the field and one of the younger/lower lot pushes their weight around to look first they'll get ears back followed up with a nip, or arse turned followed by a boot.

99% of the time they're chilled out but they have their moments of needing to keep each other in check or mad play timed.
 
FB and PJ.. I'm seeing the same at the moment. Mare has started to glare at a young Arab who she'd previously been ok with. His manners towards us are deteriorating and she has spotted it and I think she's recognised that he needs putting in his place. He's been very indulged by his owner so i guess the mare knows something needs to be done.
 
Trasa. Our broodies first meeting of the two geldings was hilarious (after being introduced for a while next door). First one is a dope and she touched noses, snorted and he was fine. Other gelding who is a cheeky wind up got a squeal and a strike without having moved an inch. Everytime he came in her area he got this for about a fortnight and now she only does it when he tries it on. They definitely know when it's needed!
 
PandorasJar said:
Trasa. Our broodies first meeting of the two geldings was hilarious (after being introduced for a while next door). First one is a dope and she touched noses, snorted and he was fine. Other gelding who is a cheeky wind up got a squeal and a strike without having moved an inch. Everytime he came in her area he got this for about a fortnight and now she only does it when he tries it on. They definitely know when it's needed!
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Wise girl. :) they can teach us so much if we watch and listen.

Ours only defers to one of the geldings and she shares her shelter with him but will move off her food if he signals that it's his. I think he just does it to prove to her that he can. The other four geldings all step aside for her and wouldn't dare glare or try to get her food.
 
Well done everyone, we seem to be approaching a concensus of opinion!! Smacking less often and for serious misdemeanours!! One thing I would like to mention. People have talked about horses kicking and biting each other.....horses give each other warnings before resorting to that...a glare, a flick of an ear, a snakey head...so imo it does seem that we humans need to take note of what is happening before we need to resort to a smack! If a horse is biting (for instance) due to being allowed to or because he is defending himself, or because he is an aggressive personality....so each reason would demand a different approach. I would hate to have to handle the last - that's a Buck Brannaman situation!! But in the easier cases I would attempt to get him backing away from me BEFORE he actually goes to bite. So, as has been said, it is a case of being aware of the horse and what he is feeling/thinking and acting sooner rather than later.
 
Forget the horses I am now wondering if my kids are now damaged.... they seemed to have survived............they get good feedback on politeness, behaviour so far no arrests have been made. But if anyone wants to try to reschool them please let me know. They are free to a good home and will make good companions to anyone with deep pockets to keep them in the manner they have become accustomed to.
 
No I don't. I do use tone of voice, which I would like to learn how to replace. E.g putting sudocrem on the sore udders of my SI mare, very rarely she might lift a leg to threaten. I 'growl', leave my hand in place, and say 'good girl' and remove my hand when she puts the leg down. We have 3, none get 'hit' and you could classify them as sport horse (1 ish, 1 Andalusian, 1 1/4 shire 3/4 tb). They have all been trained with ground work. They aren't perfect,but nor am I. One day I was leading my 2 mares, one either side of me. I wasn't alert to their non verbal communication with each other and suddenly the dominant one leant across to snap at the junior mare, biting me on the nipple in the process! I stopped, shook the lead rope at her, backed her up and told her off. My fault as I should have seen it coming. She hasn't tried it again though.
 
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