Do You Smack your horse?

Spring Feather said:
Oh maybe there's a bit of misinterpretation on my part, on this thread. I thought by 'smack' this meant people smacking with their hand or elbow. If it's about whips then I've never whipped a horse for well over 30 years and never felt the need to, but I have thrown rubber buckets at some if they are causing trouble in the field which could likely end in injury. I have dug my elbows into their necks when they get a bit bolshy in-hand and I will give them a bit of a boot in the ribs if they aren't paying attention to me under saddle. If a horse went to bite me then yes I would absolutely smack it with my hand or thump it with my fist on the neck. As said before, I probably give some form of physical reprimand maybe twice in a year. Handling the amount of horses I do on a daily basis, versus the one-horse-owner, that probably equates to one smack to one horse every 25 years!
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So do you inhale or not.:D
 
Leviathan said:
sorry to nit Pick SP
don't you mean AQH

A American
Q Quater
H Horse
A Association

My AQH is so clever, always looks of ways to get rugs down, work things out etc he is like a squirrel, he works things out to get what he wants, that said he is a git too. He is like Johnny Five in Short Circuit always wants input thrives on input.
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Is that how they are written about over there? LOL now that IS really weird to me :D I have never ever seen a quarter written about or spoken about as an AQH. Too funny, the strange differences between us over here in north America and you over there :D It's true what they say, you learn something new every day, but in this case I'm afraid I could never say an AQH, I'd be laughed out of town ;):D
 
Spring Feather said:
Am I correct in saying that Palerider you have an AQHA? Do you have more than one horse or just the one quarter horse? I've read your posts on this thread in mild amusement. Mainly because you will not answer simple questions other posters have asked you. I wondered if you just didn't know, lack of experience or something, but then I remembered you mentioning you had a quarter horse at some point and it all clicked into place for me.

Quarter horses have to be one of THE most sane, sensible and easy to work with horses around. I have loads of quarter horses and I can't remember the last time I ever laid a hand on any of them, if I ever have! The TBs and the big WBs on the other hand, yes they've had fingers pointed at them and told off over the years, and especially when an incredibly bolshy one first comes here I may have to dig my elbow into the great big yobs neck if it is having trouble listening to me. But the quarter horses, including the babies, are almost born with huge respect for their handlers and it's so rare to even have to raise a voice to any of them.

Soooo I'm wondering if this is just it? Most other posters on here are not handling uber-gentle quarter horses so perhaps give them a bit of consideration on how they handle their horses? I haven't read anyone saying they beat their horses, they are giving them one physical reprimand immediately after the horse has behaved inappropriately. Maybe time to lay off some of these guys?
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I think you may have hit the nail on the head there, SF. :)
 
Spring Feather said:
Lol :D Can you see how quickly I backpeddled when I realised that smacking meant whipping :eek: In my shock, there was a little bit of inhaling, but not much, had to concentrate on my fingers getting everything down as quickly as I could :D
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I didn't read this thread as meaning whipping either. :confused: Again, no, I NEVER whip a horse.
 
Never slapped my boy, no point. The only time I have reprimanded him for barging out of the stable and nearly squashing me was to make him go back in and come out again calmly, took three goes, he learnt not a good idea.

If he pushes his luck, rarely, he gets a dig in whatever is closest with my knuckles. Seems to work for us. Maybe I have a laid back calm chappie. He is stronger and capable of using his strength against me so don't even see it as an option.

I would never hit him on the head or any where near.
 
Well, to clarify, I haven't smacked with hand or whip for many years. The horses are still nice to be around and ride though. I'm into Arabs if that means anything. And Arab crosses. And have been into fat coloured cobs. And TB's. Oh, and of course my beloved Tiny (Fat) Pony. :-))
Mind you, on many discussions here people talk about smacking with whips, so I think it probably counts in the discussion.
Cortez - just because some people have found a different way of doing things that works and they are very happy with - it doesn't mean they are talking twaddle. If you think that is it worth widening your horsey horizons a bit?
What I can't get my head around to be honest is that somewhere in this thread we even strayed into the realms of what read to me as instructions on the correct way to smack...
 
Tinypony said:
Well, to clarify, I haven't smacked with hand or whip for many years. The horses are still nice to be around and ride though. I'm into Arabs if that means anything. And Arab crosses. And have been into fat coloured cobs. And TB's. Oh, and of course my beloved Tiny (Fat) Pony. :-))
Cortez - just because some people have found a different way of doing things that works and they are very happy with - it doesn't mean they are talking twaddle. If you think that is it worth widening your horsey horizons a bit?
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The way I see it, most of us are getting annoyed with the attitude of PR. I don't like hitting Ned and I don't do it for the sake of it. If I could find a way of working with him, where I was certain I would never ever feel the need to give him a slap for whatever reason, I would do that!
I'm simply not good enough yet. Maybe I will be one day, but not now.
PR was wrong, it DOES make me feel stupid, that I don't know all the things he apparently does and the way he says things rubs it in.
I am all for riding without pain and violence, Neddy is my whole world and if I can do something to make him more comfortable, I will.

I do like the morals PR holds, I would love to have that with Ned...but I REALLY don't like the way he goes about trying to put points across. It drives me away, rightly or wrongly, I just don't want to listen to him.
 
Nah said:
The way I see it, most of us are getting annoyed with the attitude of PR. I don't like hitting Ned and I don't do it for the sake of it. If I could find a way of working with him, where I was certain I would never ever feel the need to give him a slap for whatever reason, I would do that!
I'm simply not good enough yet. Maybe I will be one day, but not now.
PR was wrong, it DOES make me feel stupid, that I don't know all the things he apparently does and the way he says things rubs it in.
I am all for riding without pain and violence, Neddy is my whole world and if I can do something to make him more comfortable, I will.

I do like the morals PR holds, I would love to have that with Ned...but I REALLY don't like the way he goes about trying to put points across. It drives me away, rightly or wrongly, I just don't want to listen to him.
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Well said Nah. This is kind of where I am at. I never say never, and I've lived my life not whipping any horse for many years as I just do not believe that this is necessary. At least it's not necessary in my life with horses. I do see Paleriders points and I also am against hitting horses, however there are the odd moment which might happen once in a blue moon, maybe once every few years where there is one particular horse who needs more than just a tweak here and there and they do need and deserve physical reprimand. I don't know how old PR is but I get the impression younger than me. Not that that is necessarily of interest or worthy of noting, but I will say that more than 30 years I did not see much wrong with giving a horse a slap willy nilly. As I grew and figured out more and more how horses were wired I am more leaning towards the side of not smacking horse ... end of story. It's not becoming a fluffy bunny, it's just that I got a fright about 35 years ago when I dealt with a situation that nowadays I would not deal with in the same manner. We grow older, we gain more experience so we grow wiser and we change our attitudes. I'm the same with horses being euthanised. Many years ago I was very hard (like many of the posters on here) about euthansia, nowadays I am very much different in my thinking about what it right and what is wrong (in my mind). I am definitely not one who would have an old horse put down just because it's old. Maybe when you yourself get older you do see things differently, and you do view older animals in a different vein. And the same is said for smacking horses. I've grown so much in my time on this earth and there's a lot about PR's philosophys (although I must admit to probably assuming things about his philosophys because he doesn't actually state what they are) that ring true and right with me. I do not enjoy smacking horses and for the most part I do not do this, BUT there is always the one who might just push those boundaries who do respect and learn from a swift knock down!

That is all. :)
 
All horses are different, my old shire, a smack (with the hand) was all it took to correct him on the ground, he never needed it when driving or riding, that is when voice control came into work!
Another horse i had (mare) you couldnt smack, whether riding or ground work, it wouldnt have helped it would have made her panic, so again used voice control , the same with my Arab gelding, his fears take over, so you just cannot raise a hand to him (not that i have ever had to) i cant even carry a lunge whip near him!
So in conclusion you have to know the horse and its temperament !
 
I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
 
Alyth said:
I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
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Why use the word 'threatened'. I can't think of a situation where my horses have felt threatened on the yard. They may feel a bit cheeky or fresh, they may feel mulish because they don't want to have to work, they may want to go out quicker than I let them, or come in later than I want them to, they may want peace and quiet or to eat their feeds when I want to change their rugs, or not want another horse so close to them when they've just had a scrap in the field. My horses have incredibly interesting and complex lives, they have a myriad of reasons for behaving the way they do.

I am always surprised that people who advocate NH and similar boil horse behaviour down to such simple explanations and miss so much of the detail in the way the rest of us interact with our horses and the way they interact with each other. My horses constantly interest and surprise me, it's frustrating at times, but fascinating.
 
Alyth said:
I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
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Last time I did it was in the stable, quite a while back when I started training him again.
He had a fear of stables and even once broke the door off it's hinges!
I was grooming him and I noticed him getting a bit restless. So I stopped grooming and stroked his neck and spoke softy too him. Suddenly he darted forwards and I heard the door creak. I was not letting him break the door again! I got hold of him and tried to pull him back, but he went forwards again. He got a slap on the chest with a "NO! BACK!" and that made him aware of me long enough so I could get him under control and walk him out of the stable to calm down. Goodness knows what had frightened him, but when he was calm I walked him back in to the stables and I finished grooming him.
That was also the day I decided "Back" in the stable would be useful. Why I didn't think of that before I don't know, but now he knows "back" and all is well!
 
Alyth said:
I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
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They are horses :D

They do daft things for goodness knows what reason, only occasionally due to fear :D

Like humans, they have different personalities. Some are pushy, some are quiet, some would be outright thugs if not kept in their place. (young Welsh Ds come to mind :D )

But do you REALLY want your horse to be an automaton which has its eyes fixed on you at all times awaiting your every move, without an independent thought in its head?

I don't.
 
How do you come to this...
cptrayes said:
They are horses :D
But do you REALLY want your horse to be an automaton which has its eyes fixed on you at all times awaiting your every move, without an independent thought in its head?
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...from this?
Originally Posted by Alyth
I find it really interesting that so many people find it necessary to administer a slap - occasionally - 'to remind them' or 'keep them in line'......no-one has talked about what caused the behaviour that needed a 'reminder'.....something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....
 
What I am constantly trying to achieve is a partnership between me and the horse, where we both have our roles and responsibilities.

I choose direction and gait.

He maintains direction and gait until asked to change.

I provide leadership and safety.

He accepts that and doesn't start making his own decisions, being fearful and allowing his natural instincts to take over to get him out of trouble.

No I don't want an automaton, I want a horse who is comfortable in his skin and his world working with me, aware of his role and not having to be micro managed all the time.

Not much to ask really,:)
 
I'm beginning to discover that they are not unlike children. Often a whisper or low voice works better than a shout and a poke with a finger to get a horse to move over can be more effective than a slap or a thump.
 
Pale Rider said:
What I am constantly trying to achieve is a partnership between me and the horse, where we both have our roles and responsibilities.

I choose direction and gait.

He maintains direction and gait until asked to change.

I provide leadership and safety.

He accepts that and doesn't start making his own decisions, being fearful and allowing his natural instincts to take over to get him out of trouble.

No I don't want an automaton, I want a horse who is comfortable in his skin and his world working with me, aware of his role and not having to be micro managed all the time.

Not much to ask really,:)
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Really like this. It's what I'm working towards. :)
 
A lot of people humanize horses in all ways.

They are my life they mean as much as children to me. People are thinking of smacking as being detrimental to a horses relationship of owner and horse as if a horse thinks the same way a child would think (I was smacked as a child - I find nothing wrong if given as a last resort after two warnings)

Horses do not take it personally against their owners
In the wild or in their world.

A mare will give a kick as
a warning
a bite
a kick
To their foal or youngster when they do wrong.
A horse mare or gelding in a field will give a
kick
bite warning etc to another horse
A stallion also the same.


So I see nothing wrong with a human hand which does far less damage that a horses hoof or teeth. ( my boy is on box rest due to a kick).
It barely stings as when you slap your own leg or play fighting with hubby/b/f.

Everyone has their own views, I will give a smack in the right situation, as I know none of my horses think any less of me, as per my mare of a lifetime you could not get a stronger bond between owner and horse as I did with her.
 
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Pale Rider said:
So not really cured then Wagtail.

Specifically, in that situation, I wouldn't recommend pushing his nose away because it becomes a colt see saw game.
I'd scratch and rub his nose every time he came into my space with it looking to nip. So instead of pushi his mussel away get really busy with it. They soon get fed up with that and pack the nipping in
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Have you ever even seen a real biter?
 
Thirty three pages and counting - I can see points in lots of the posts - it's an emotive subject.

I was brought up in what would be described today as brutal surroundings - even my mother beat me with a stick - it was the norm back then and parents would have considered soft in the head it they didn't chastise their children - especially boys. I was extraordinarily cheeky ( oh - I bet that comes as no surprise!)

My youth was spent among trainee criminals - all our local heroes looked like the Goodfellas only in English - as I grew to be quite big, it was only natural to gravitate to this life ( let me fix him for you boss!)

However; I realised through education that there was another world just outside my bubble and luckily I found a way to join it. Renouncing violence is one of the first conditions of civilisation - this doesn't mean I'm a soft touch but it does mean that I didn't hit my children or any animals.

Hopefully, I led through firm but kind, fair and consistence behavior but never a big stick.
 
I think we're all guilty of anthromorphism at times - I know I am! I often hold quite intense conversations with my horse, believing that she's understanding every word I say (I know, I know! :D) but deep down she IS just a horse, and the excitement directed at me when she sees me is probably nothing more than "w00t w00t - here's her with the carrots" or "thank gawd for that - she's come to let me out". And I'm sure she doesn't "love" me any less for the odd slap or verbal reprimand, which is where a lot of people go wrong.

But I do believe she sees me as a leader now, and I like nothing more than when she leaves the herd to follow me down the field without rope or headcollar - that's assuming I've had to GO into the field to get her - normally she'll stop what doing and come when I call her.

She also demonstrates trust in winter when they're all at the gate waiting to come in and nine times out of ten she'll pick her way through to come to me, because she thinks I'll do my best to keep her safe from attack by the higher herd members.
 
lastchancer said:
So how would you have desensitized my whip shy horse then? You never answered my earlier post.
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Sorry Lastchancer, didn't really know what you are asking about.

You have a whip shy horse and you are asking me how you would desensitize it.
From the wording of your question are you expecting me to say "hit it with a whip"?

Can I ask why is your horse whip shy? whats happened to it?
 
lastchancer said:
Have you ever even seen a real biter?
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I know what you mean. There is no way on earth you can 'get busy' with the nose and lips of a real biter. It can only be effective with those that are playing. I never forget being attacked by this mare that belonged to a friend of mine. I was leaning over her door to see if she had any haylage left and she flew at me grabbing the top of my arm like a vice. The pain was excruciating. Despite having two jumpers and a thick winter coat on my arm was black and blue from shoulder to elbow. If it had been summer and I was wearing a t shirt, I think she would have removed the whole of my biceps muscle. :(

We never did find out what made her so bad. She was bought at a sale and was like that from day one. I certainly didn't try playing with her lips! I never went near her again unless she was under tack, when for some reason she was fine.
 
Wagtail said:
I know what you mean. There is no way on earth you can 'get busy' with the nose and lips of a real biter. It can only be effective with those that are playing. I never forget being attacked by this mare that belonged to a friend of mine. I was leaning over her door to see if she had any haylage left and she flew at me grabbing the top of my arm like a vice. The pain was excruciating. Despite having two jumpers and a thick winter coat on my arm was black and blue from shoulder to elbow. If it had been summer and I was wearing a t shirt, I think she would have removed the whole of my biceps muscle. :(

We never did find out what made her so bad. She was bought at a sale and was like that from day one. I certainly didn't try playing with her lips! I never went near her again unless she was under tack, when for some reason she was fine.
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Sounds like this horse is attacking you not just biting.
 
Leviathan said:
Everyone has their own views, I will give a smack in the right situation, .
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I had to land a hefty smack, with a thumbstick, across the rugged backside of my cob this morning.

The reason - to save her from injury. She tried to roll on a concrete yard and had she gone down she would have had a real struggle to rise. The yard had 3 inches of snow covering solid ice.

She is now happily upside down in the field. The smack was not punishment and no doubt someone will say she lacks training because her attention was not with me whilst be lead across the yard, but a potentially nasty incident was averted with one quick smack.
 
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