Do You Smack your horse?

cptrayes said:
Is it actually possible for the average human to hurt a horse by slapping it with an open hand, biffing it with a closed fist or elbowing the neck or shoulder?

I would say that the most I manage to do is to alert the horse to what I am asking it to do that it wasn't listening to. I might shock it, but hurt it? I don't think so. If it actually hurt the horse I think it would cripple me!
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Even with my declared attitude to the subject I'm inclined to agree with you on the "hurting" part so the decision to hit is largely one of whether you think it's appropriate to shock an animal.

Particularly as I ( along with many others ) hold the opinion that horses are completely without sentience to cause and effect - for instance; you might think a vicious stop is worthy of a smart thwack but your horse just thinks - what the hell was that! I'm even going to leave off the "for" as that is yet another level up the consciousness scale.

The fact that you can beat some horses into submission or seemingly passed their fears does not excuse anyone so doing - well, certainly not while claiming to be truly Horsey - that should be a partnership of the willing.
 
Pale Rider said:
Yes I have QH's and Arabs, I tend to get a lot of WB's now, fashion being what it is, I've got one myself now, lol.

Groundwork, millions of transitions, directional changes the lot. I'd be looking for walk to canter, canter to stop and all other combinations of transition on the ground. When I was getting this with the smallest ask, I'd transfer it to the saddle. I certainly wouldn't rush it, and its got to be right on the ground before you go back to riding.
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Okay, I agree with that (though have not/would not teach canter to stop). Walk to canter, halt to canter, canter to walk (only ridden). Anyway, you do all that, but horse is still dead to the leg. What do you do? I know plenty of horses that are quick to react on the lunge but revert to being dead to the leg when ridden. Obviously due to incorrect training (owner too busy with the leg aids). But how do you change that? I know what I do, but what do you do?
 
AengusOg said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AengusOg
something must have caused the horse to behave in a way that was contrary to what the human wanted....the horse felt threatened enough to instigate the fight or flight instinct....

I don't know how you did this, but these are not my words, PolarSkye.
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Erm . . . I thought I just used the quote button, but I'll see if I can find the entire post I quoted this from . . . odd if it wasn't you, no skullduggery from me, I promise.

P
 
Wagtail said:
I was having a good think about just that whilst mucking out earlier. It is nothing compared to what they are capable of doing and do do to each other. I think the reason why a (well timed) smack works, is because they understand it. They know the intention behind it. Not because it hurts them.
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Exactly what I think. It's a language that they understand because they speak it to each other.

The shoulder-biff with the teeth is a great example. If a horse comes too close to the herd leader and is coming up to pass them, then they turn their head and biff the shoulder with their teeth. I replicate that with my knuckles in exactly the same place on a horse who does not lead nicely, and they know exactly what I mean. An elbow does the same and I would do that too but I have very bony elbows and might hurt myself so I tend to use a fist :D
 
1stclassalan said:
Even with my declared attitude to the subject I'm inclined to agree with you on the "hurting" part so the decision to hit is largely one of whether you think it's appropriate to shock an animal.

Particularly as I ( along with many others ) hold the opinion that horses are completely without sentience to cause and effect - for instance; you might think a vicious stop is worthy of a smart thwack but your horse just thinks - what the hell was that! I'm even going to leave off the "for" as that is yet another level up the consciousness scale.

The fact that you can beat some horses into submission or seemingly passed their fears does not excuse anyone so doing - well, certainly not while claiming to be truly Horsey - that should be a partnership of the willing.
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I have to agree with the senseless whipping some horses get after refusing a jump. The whip is not there to punish a horse, it is there as a back up to the leg. I actually find it is the most useful when teaching lateral movements. I use a schooling whip either to tickle behind the leg or to press behind the leg in a more constant pressure. I don't use it to hit.
 
Wagtail said:
Okay, I agree with that (though have not/would not teach canter to stop). Walk to canter, halt to canter, canter to walk (only ridden). Anyway, you do all that, but horse is still dead to the leg. What do you do? I know plenty of horses that are quick to react on the lunge but revert to being dead to the leg when ridden. Obviously due to incorrect training (owner too busy with the leg aids). But how do you change that? I know what I do, but what do you do?
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I'm not lunging,

Patterns will sort that.

If it still doesn't work it will take longer thats all.

I wouldn't try to be stronger with legs or spurs.

Seeing as how I've not met one yet that hasn't responded well to this training, what would you do then?
 
cptrayes said:
Exactly what I think. It's a language that they understand because they speak it to each other.

The shoulder-biff with the teeth is a great example. If a horse comes too close to the herd leader and is coming up to pass them, then they turn their head and biff the shoulder with their teeth. I replicate that with my knuckles in exactly the same place on a horse who does not lead nicely, and they know exactly what I mean. An elbow does the same and I would do that too but I have very bony elbows and might hurt myself so I tend to use a fist :D
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Good point.

Another (non contact) communication they use to send others away is the flick up and down with their head. Horses understand it as being the same message when you do the same thing with your hand and arm. There are some things they just understand because it's what they do to each other. I have also turned my back to them, stepped back and raised my leg. Has the same effect.
 
Pale Rider said:
I'm not lunging,

Patterns will sort that.

If it still doesn't work it will take longer thats all.

I wouldn't try to be stronger with legs or spurs.

Seeing as how I've not met one yet that hasn't responded well to this training, what would you do then?
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Firstly train the owner. :D

Legs should be still unless asking for an increase in gait or step up of gait. Then ask with a gentle squeeze. If horse does not immediately go forwards, then a strong dig with the heel. I have never met a horse that needs this doing more than twice. Problem solved in no more than a minute. Just have to ensure that the owner does not revert back to nagging with the legs.
 
Wagtail said:
Good point.

Another (non contact) communication they use to send others away is the flick up and down with their head. Horses understand it as being the same message when you do the same thing with your hand and arm. There are some things they just understand because it's what they do to each other. I have also turned my back to them, stepped back and raised my leg. Has the same effect.
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Well I've not tried the threat to kick, what a great idea :D !

I have a horse who also rotates his head when he flicks it - it's a very aggressive gesture, according to how the others react to it. I never realised before how my instinctive raise of my hand right up into the air with a flick of the hand on the end of the wrist mirrors that, but I often use it when I am herding them loose into a barn.
 
Wagtail said:
Firstly train the owner. :D

Legs should be still unless asking for an increase in gait or step up of gait. Then ask with a gentle squeeze. If horse does not immediately go forwards, then a strong dig with the heel. I have never met a horse that needs this doing more than twice. Problem solved in no more than a minute. Just have to ensure that the owner does not revert back to nagging with the legs.
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Fair enough, another cat skin.:)
 
Pale Rider, could you post some pictures of you and your horses? I'm sure it would be a lot easier for us to understand what it is you are advocating as an alternative to the more "traditional" methods?
 
Pale Rider said:
I don't want too.
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Why not though, is it a security/privacy thing? You don't want us seeing you/your horses?

I think I could hurt Ned if I really really tried, but I never try to hurt him.
I do the same to friends who aren't listening, surprisingly! A small slap on the shoulder. None of them have ever said it hurts! I guess I'm an evil friend too :P
 
Actually, I think it is something that many people would be reluctant to do on a public forum. There are some real nutcases about.
 
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I'd quite like folk to see my horses and what they can do.

But, as far as these threads go, I think that anonymity is what I'd prefer, especially considering how many people I seem to have upset. I do have a living to earn, lol.

Wagtail's right there are a lot of nutters about, and I'd never forgive myself if something happened.
 
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AengusOg said:
I'm sure. :)

I think they may have been Pale Rider's words.

There are some problems with the site this weekend,apparently, so maybe that is the reason.
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So if it wasn't you, and it wasn't PR, then who did I quote? I really did just use the Quote function . . . this is very odd . . .

P
 
Pale Rider said:
I'd quite like folk to see my horses and what they can do.

But, as far as these threads go, I think that anonymity is what I'd prefer, especially considering how many people I seem to have upset. I do have a living to earn, lol.

Wagtail's right there are a lot of nutters about, and I'd never forgive myself if something happened.
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I don't see a problem myself PR. I always post under my own name because I hate what some people, NOT you, are prepared to say under cover of anonymity.

I do actually find it strange that if you make your money out of training horses, which I think you do?, that you are not prepared to give your true name and yet you are happy to post fairly prolifically on barefoot and on training issues like the use of whips and bits.

It's one of the reasons I counter-post you, because you post with the authority of a paid trainer and are very critical of other people's management of their horses, and yet you hide behind anonymity.

I too take plenty of stick on this forum, sometimes fairly vicious stuff, but in all my five years on here I've never had anyone seek me out at home or hurt my horses or even write to me. There are quite a few of us who post under our real names, how about joining us?
 
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cptrayes said:
I don't see a problem myself PR. I always post under my own name because I hate what some people, NOT you, are prepared to say under cover of anonymity.

I do actually find it strange that if you make your money out of training horses, which I think you do?, that you are not prepared to give your true name and yet you are happy to post fairly prolifically on barefoot and on training issues like the use of whips and bits.

It's one of the reasons I counter-post you, because you post with the authority of a paid trainer and are very critical of other people's management of their horses, and yet you hide behind anonymity.

I too take plenty of stick on this forum, sometimes fairly vicious stuff, but in all my five years on here I've never had anyone seek me out at home or hurt my horses or even write to me. There are quite a few of us who post under our real names, how about joining us?
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I think I'll carry on with the Status Quo for a bit, one of my favourite bands as well, that dates me, lol:D
 
I'm with PR on this - don't faint!

I've never used my real name on any forum I've ever been on. I need to be anonymous, partly because of my work, and partly because the horse world is a small world and I don't want to upset anyone when I need opinions on say, how to treat a workmate or yardmate.

It's nice to see this thread's settled down and some (OK, you, Pale Rider :D) are mellowing a bit now we're starting to understand where we're all coming from.

Guess what? My horse had a slap tonight. :eek: She's been confined to barracks for a few days because of the weather and she's got a bit up herself. She made to come out of the stable when I was taking in her water bucket, got told "Back" and moved back. She moved over when told to, lifted her foot when I asked so I could sweep under it and stood quietly while I tied up her haynets, and waited patiently for her feed.

Then she let herself down by grabbing my sleeve in her mouth when we were having a chat and fuss over the door.

She reacted in her normal way, stepped back, head down, pointy lip.

Two minutes later she was letting me scratch her poll and behind her ears and nearly falling over she was so chilled - a formerly abused, headshy horse, remember?

She used to be terrified of whips, brooms, and, interestingly, people going near her with an UNLIT cigarette in their mouth (lit ones didn't worry her). I assume someone had beaten the living daylights out of her with such a weapon with a fag in their mouth.

It's like someone said earlier, you have to know your horse, the triggers for bad behaviour, and what works and when, to correct it.
 
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