Do You Smack your horse?

I don't think that horses treat us as other horses and I don't think they expect us to behave as their friends and fieldmates behave. I think we have to create frameworks which result in the right behaviours and in many cases the reference points are duplications of behaviour they understand.
If I get my horse to back away from me, he gets that - he understands it is because I am dominant in our relationship.
My horse and his best friend really squabble over their adjacent stable doors, lots of tooth bashing and nipping. (they still completely trust one another, my horse would follow his best friend through fire. His best friend is the field bully who is never bullying towards mine.)
Neither horse would dream of being mouthy towards a hunan though, they have a different set of behaviours and they know it. They know they shouldn't through being reprimanded early in life for inappropriate behaviour.

I think we have to assume we are dominant, I don't know how anyone could safely have any other relationship with their horse. Some relationships are less clear cut than others buit the debate is how aggressive you have to be as a person to become the dominant party. I don;t think a slap is as aggressive as the biting/kickin/lunging my horses indulge in, they understand why they might get a slap because it works.
 
Tinypony said:
I think it's one thing to poke a bit of light-hearted banter at someone (as PR does), but completely another to start posting personal insults as you have done about anyone.
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It is not lighthearted banter to tell everyone who cannot hunt their horse with reins attached by cotton that they do not know how to train horses. It is not lighthearted banter to tell everyone who uses any bit other than a snaffle, or actually needs to use the reins, that they don't know how to ride. It is not lighthearted banter to tell people who are being walked all over by a horse that someone else has badly trained that they must not hit it under any circumstances and have failed in their management of the horse if they do.

If PR sets himself up by making such assertions in the holier-than-thou fashion that he does, and then refuses to explain how he would do things differently, (as he has on every thread I have seen him on except this one where he was pressured by a group of people into giving a tiny bit of information) then I'm afraid that I think he is due whatever insults come his way.
 
AengusOg said:
I find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them.

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.
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Again you are assuming that horses ONLY ever do the wrong thing because they don't understand. I don't agree with that. As some have pointed out, there are very different personalities with horses and esp the rhino skinned thugs will understand perfectly what they are MEANT to be doing but will do something else because their desire for whatever overruled their respect and desire to do what they're asked. Easiest example would be 'forgetting their manners' and diving into a tasty looking patch of grass, dragging their handler with them. They KNOW they're not to pull nor drag but that grass is just sooooo tempting....... A sensitive gentle horse will be chastised enough by a yank on the rope and a sharp no! A thick skinned thug will quickly decide that the punishment of 'being re directed' or whatever it is Pale Rider would do instead is totally worth a mouthful of grass. Maybe the horse should have it's eyes constantly fixed on you like the automon cptrays described but that isn't exactly real life realistic!

Your example of being hit bt an employer because you COULDN'T do as asked is not the same as being hit because you WOULDN'T do as asked (should hitting humans be appropriate). You'd feel very different if you got a clip round the ear for doing the wrong thing because you misunderstood and getting a clip round the ear for doing the wrong thing because you simply didn't bother listening.

Horse are the same and Im sure people will agree with me when I say horses react very differently to a uncalled for slap than they do to a well deserved smack. The first frightens and confuses them. The 'deserved' smack get a very different reaction: often a bit huffy, sometimes a bit shocked if they've been allowed to be rude on the past, but no fear or confusion. I've found that even the sharp and sensitive react the same to a 'deserved' smack.

It's also rarely 'suddenly' being smacked. The horse gets a warning but Im not going to repeat myself over and over again because it's not listening! Of course it's my responsibility to ensure they understood what I asked in the first place but as I've said before I don't believe all 'bad behaviour' is a result of misunderstanding.
 
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Kallibear said:
I'm sure people will agree with me when I say horses react very differently to a uncalled for slap than they do to a well deserved smack. The first frightens and confuses them. The 'deserved' smack get a very different reaction: often a bit huffy, sometimes a bit shocked if they've been allowed to be rude on the past, but no fear or confusion. I've found that even the sharp and sensitive react the same to a 'deserved' smack.
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I completely agree with this Kallibear, and I'd go so far as to say that occasionally I have had a horse which is a leader but also a worrier react to a slap with an obvious and instant "oh thank goodness for that, someone has taken control and I can relax at last".
 
Kallibear said:
Horse are the same and Im sure people will agree with me when I say horses react very differently to a uncalled for slap than they do to a well deserved smack. The first frightens and confuses them. The 'deserved' smack get a very different reaction: often a bit huffy, sometimes a bit shocked if they've been allowed to be rude on the past, but no fear or confusion. I've found that even the sharp and sensitive react the same to a 'deserved' smack.
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How do you ascertain whether they know the difference?

I have been asked to work with horses which have been inclined to take advantage of inept handlers and dive for a tasty bite of grass. It's a 'problem' which is easily sorted in a few minutes by properly teaching the horse to yield to light pressure on the halter, and by teaching the handler that they must attentively handle their horse.

Do you think the horse deserved a slap, or should the handler have got it?
 
I never touch my horse with the whip simply because I only have to show it to her for her to pick up the pace or start behaving. She has recently started snatching the reins slightly and when she does that I hit her with my hand on her neck which gives her a fright and stops her although I'm sure it doesn't hurt her. However my friend's horse has skin like a rhino and is always stopping to eat and when she smacks him he takes no notice at all!
 
AengusOg said:
How do you ascertain whether they know the difference?
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They dont have to, it's the handler who decides that it's justified and does not do it unless it is.

No-one denies that there are bad handlers who hit horses for the wrong reasons, but that isn't what we are talking about.
 
AengusOg said:
OMG! Do you really believe that?
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I believe it because it has happened more than once in front of my eyes. You can see the "letting go" as they realise that they don't have to be the one who worries any more.

These are horses which probably came from people who said "there there" and "reassured" the horse when it was worried. Of course they did no such thing, what they did was reward, with a pat and nice words, worried behaviour and caused the horse to think that it was right to worry.



It really would help this discussion if you would stop reacting as if by "a slap" I meant that I went and fetched a whip and beat the living daylights out of the creature :D !!
 
No No No would use my voice to warn about dangerous behaviour but your perception of what is naughty and theirs is worlds apart. Also peoples ideas of what is considered to be acceptable punishment for crime is very different too, from a tap punch whack where do you stop when your horse is terrified of you and hurting? nice! I have seen people who are obviously in a bad mood or showing off take it out on their horses and it is not pleasant.
 
If the horse is aware that they shouldn't dive into the tasty grass (most are!) the yes, a slap is appropriate. There are other ways of reprimanding (which I may use on different personalities of horses) but I've found a smack more effective for thugs.

Most horses, even well trained ones, will try it occasionally regardless that they've been told no! many times in the past and they're meant to have their attention fixed on their handler. That is not practical or realistic in every day situations. I do not give the horse my completely undivided attention every second I am with them, nor do I except to have to. I have other thing to do. I also don't expect my horse to hang on to every breath I take and have their undivided attentions every second of every day. Unless I ask for it. They are entitled to think for themselves. But I do expect them to stick to all the basic rules they know (and I have ensured Im 100% certain they know) at all times, which includes no yanking the rope!

I entirely disagree that appropriate force (smack, punch, nip etc) is frightening or confusing for a horse and damages the relationship. OF COURSE unfair punishment is damaging and I don't think anyone here has argued it isn't (what is 'unfair' is a whole new can of worms)

You have decided that smacking an animal is morally wrong and I respect and understand that but don't expect others to live by YOUR morals (I realised your are far less extreme and more accommodating than someone like Pale Rider), nor justify them to others with statements that others have found to untrue.
 
wernickwonder said:
No No No would use my voice to warn about dangerous behaviour but your perception of what is naughty and theirs is worlds apart.
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I consider my role as a trainer is to ensure that the horse has exactly the same perception as me as to what is "naughty" (which I would prefer to call unacceptable) and what is not.



Also peoples ideas of what is considered to be acceptable punishment for crime is very different too, from a tap punch whack where do you stop when your horse is terrified of you and hurting? nice!
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A decent trainer knows when the horse is terrified or hurting. There is no accounting for idiots, you'll find them in all walks of life, but it does not mean every slap is wrong.

Use of the word "crime" is inappropriately emotive, IMO. A horse overstepping a known boundary is not committing a crime, it's being a horse.
 
Also, you clearly believe that horses only ever show bad/rude/naughty/whatever behaviour because they are frightened or don't understand. I again entirely disagree and probably the biggest reason we are sitting on very different sides of the fence. There are times when horses don't do as they are asked because it doesn't suit their current agenda. The closest a horse can come to 'don't want to' or 'can't be bothered'.

Many people of here have given examples of why the smack their horse and to be honest, reading between the lines, some of them are inappropriate. But that still does not make all smacking innappropriate.
 
cptrayes said:
I consider my role as a trainer is to ensure that the horse has exactly the same perception as me as to what is "naughty" (which I would prefer to call unacceptable) and what is not.
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Ditto. If your horse does not know what you class as naughty/inappropriate/unacceptable behaviour then you've not do a very good job training it! If you have not spelt out the rules clearly to them then it is never appropriate to smack them for getting it wrong. And course the hoses who HAVE had the rules make very clear very infrequently need smacked for breaking them. There are always the bulshy pushy thick skinned rhino but even they learn eventually. Which is why many many people say they rarely ever need to smack their horse.
 
cptrayes said:
I believe it because it has happened more than once in front of my eyes. You can see the "letting go" as they realise that they don't have to be the one who worries any more.

These are horses which probably came from people who said "there there" and "reassured" the horse when it was worried. Of course they did no such thing, what they did was reward, with a pat and nice words, worried behaviour and caused the horse to think that it was right to worry.



It really would help this discussion if you would stop reacting as if by "a slap" I meant that I went and fetched a whip and beat the living daylights out of the creature :D !!
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Do you think you are helping? :D

As far as horses realising that they don't have to be the one who worries anymore, this can all be done through the use of pressure and release and sensible handling. One doesn't have to dominate and strike a horse for it to assume the position in the relationship where it relinquishes responsibility for itself.

As soon as a trainer has a horse leading nicely, stopping, starting, following around, backing up, and standing quietly, when signalled to do so, the horse is already free of worries, confident and trusting of its handler to look after it. With that comes compliance and trainability. Once that relationship is established, it can be maintained thereafter by sensible, consistent, attentive handling. Why would it change?
 
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But does a horse have any concept of what "naughty" is? I don't think so - that would be humanising them one step too far. S/he will have learned that humans don't approve of certain behaviour and it will earn them a reprimand of whatever denomination the handler uses, smack or other.

It's like, say, I dismount because my horse naps and puts me in danger. Just about everyone I know will say "Oh well, that's it. You've let her get away with it, so she'll do it every time now to get her own way". Nonsense! It's never happened. Horses simply don't think like that! That would be assigning them the powers of reason, which they simply don't have, or at least not on the same level as a human has.

I agree with the poster (sorry, I've forgotten now who it was) who said that they relax when they realise they don't have to be in charge - I've seen it with mine and many other horses. My own mare (not the one I have now) once shared a field with some youngsters, and she felt she had to keep them in check, and there was no other senior horse so it was left to her, and it honestly stressed her. She absolutely didn't want this responsibility and was a much happier horse when she was removed from the situation.

Another time, she was number two in quite a large herd, and was happy to stay there. The senior mare was off sick for several weeks (box rest :)) and my mare was left in charge. She was OK with it this time, and when alpha came back into the field there was a very half-hearted leadership challenge and she relinquished the herd, and again was much more chilled.
 
AengusOg said:
As soon as a trainer has a horse leading nicely, stopping, starting, following around, backing up, and standing quietly, when signalled to do so, the horse is already free of worries, confident and trusting of its handler to look after it. With that comes compliance and trainability. Once that relationship is established, it can be maintained thereafter by sensible, consistent, attentive handling. Why would it change?
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Because life sometimes throws them a curved ball?

I think we have established already that I actually do not want my horses to be like zombies who never ever put a foot out of place and are minutely focussed on me at all times that I am in their sight.

I like my horses to be highly sensitive, and because of the way they are bred and the fact that they are very fit, they are highly sensitive.

This means that from time to time, rarely, they will, for example, forget their manners and stand blocking the stable door when I have opened it because they are so interested in the fact that a crisp packet has blown down the yard and is heading for them at high speed carried by the wind. In that situation, I say "back" once, and if they fail to respond to that I either slap or punch their shoulder about where the neck joins it. They reconnect with me and step back calmly. If I was to anthropomorphise I would say that they also appear to be apologetic for their lapse of manners :)

I do not, myself, see any failure of my training in that, or see any problem to the horse in that, and if you do, we will simply have to agree to differ.

But I can tell you that if your horses would NOT react in that situation, ever, that they would not be horses that I would want in my yard. I don't mean by that that there is anything wrong with your horses, just that I like horses with rather more spirit than other people do.





ps I have found a Facebook page which I think belongs to PR under his real name. If it is not him it is someone who appears to train his horses the same way. The page has on it lots of photos of horses doing what PR says that he does with his. Whether this is PR's page or not is largely irrelevant, what strikes me most about it is that in most of the photos the horses simply do not, to me, look either happy with or interested in, their work. If that's the result of this "kinder" way of training, I don't want that, either.
 
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Kallibear said:
You have decided that smacking an animal is morally wrong and I respect and understand that but don't expect others to live by YOUR morals (I realised your are far less extreme and more accommodating than someone like Pale Rider), nor justify them to others with statements that others have found to untrue.
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If this is addressed to me, I'm not sure I have made any decisions based on morals. I just happen to believe that hitting horses is unnecessary and difficult to justify.
 
I am a smacker if my horse is naughty i smack hard when my cob only three at the time give me both barrels for no reason kicking me though a stable door picked up my plastic shovel and battered his big bum in eighteen years he has never lifted a leg at me again lesson learnt I would love never to smack any of my horses but will not put up with bad manners kicking or biting ever. And have been told my horses have excellent manners which makes me proud of them and i have very good bond with all my horses but me and my cob are very close
 
Kallibear said:
Also, you clearly believe that horses only ever show bad/rude/naughty/whatever behaviour because they are frightened or don't understand.
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Not true. It is often the case, particularly with the training of young horses, that they may behave inappropriately through fear or lack of understanding, but there are of course other reasons why some horses may behave badly.
 
Gosh this topic has got interesting since I last looked!

Kallibear and CP Trayes I agree with what you say totally. What we have to remember is that in the wild or in the field if a horse barges then they are likely going to be double barrelled by whoever they are trying to shove out of the way. A slap from us really isnt going to hurt them as much as a kick from another horse would so no, it is not cruel or unnecessary as long as it is used at the right time.

My boy is 4, a big warmblood and, yes, there are times when he does something "wrong" as he doesnt know what he is doing. For instance, He was lightly backed towards the end of last year. When i apply a small amount of pressure with my legs he, at first, turned his head and bit my boot. He is young so no reprimand, just used a leader to reinforce that when i touch it means forward. however, the beast will have a bite when I open the door to go into his stable or put his headcollar on. This is not because he doesnt know what he is doing, its because he is being a bit bolshy b****r so he gets a sharp tap on the end of his muzzle. He is not headshy in the slightest, nor frightened of people. In fact, it makes little difference as the likelihood is the next day he will do it again anyway. Most other things a sharply spoken "oy" will do the trick.

Same with the dragging to grass. He will drag me as he has just discovered that in a headcollar there is not a lot little me can do to stop him. He doesnt run, just walks off in whatever direction he wants to. I do not smack for this though, but I do now lead him in a bridle.

Unfortunately, whilst we would all love to live in a world where our horse never does anything wrong and we never have to reprimand them but its not going to happen and with 600kg of young horse I cannot let him get the better of me.
 
cptrayes said:
... This means that from time to time, rarely, they will, for example, forget their manners and stand blocking the stable door when I have opened it because they are so interested in the fact that a crisp packet has blown down the yard and is heading for them at high speed carried by the wind. In that situation, I say "back" once, and if they fail to respond to that I either slap or punch their shoulder about where the neck joins it. They reconnect with me and step back calmly. If I was to anthropomorphise I would say that they also appear to be apologetic for their lapse of manners :) ...
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BIB I think that sums it up nicely for me - I've read comments like "my horses wouldn't do X, Y or Z because I've trained them properly and you haven't" :rolleyes: but at the end of the day we have here a large fight or flight animal that will from time to time focus completely on something that either fascinates or horrifies him, to the point where nothing else exists except the object in question. If a simple "Watch me!" with a snap of the fingers doesn't bring his attention back, then a poke in the ribs or shoulder would be appropriate.

Smacks are normally reserved for the more serious crime.
 
AengusOg said:
I find it hard to believe that horses are not damaged by physical violence against them.


to help you understand i advise watching a group/herd of horses, and how they interact with each other, especially when they are eating, they first warn with a flick of the head, then maybe a stamp of a foot, if all warnings are ignored, they will then either kick or bite, They use physical violence against each other, far more violent than i could ever be!

I can imagine how I might feel if my employer suddenly slapped me or booted me up the @rse if I ground the gears in the truck, or misunderstood his instructions, or couldn't find what he'd asked me to get.
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first of all you are a human, and communicate verbally with speech, so of course that would be wrong of an employer! :rolleyes: not really a good argument!


Sorry middle bit of quoted area is my comment!
 
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I came across this video of wild horses on YouTube which includes a very sad and shocking sequence showing how a stallion dealt with a sick foal.

Stallions are quite capable of dealing with others in the herd in a similar way. I don't think horses which can do this to each other are going to be terribly upset by a smack from a human, are they? The smack, assuming it isn't more than that, let alone a beating, is simply a reminder of where they stand on the social scale.

[youtube]PPyA60lQDR4[/youtube]
 
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