Do You Smack your horse?

I don't think it contributes to the debate does it? It doesn't show horses physically punishing/reprimanding/smacking each other. Surely that's driven by a survival instinct.
 
"Horses sometimes behave violently towards each other, so it's alright for us to behave violently towards them - and anyway, we could never hurt them as much as they can hurt each other."

At first sight it would appear that some people buy into that argument wholesale and even excuse harsh treatment that way. But do they really?? (FWIW, I personally think it is crap.)

Is it alright to kick a horse in the belly? It's much less forceful than one horse double-barreling another, after all. I've seen more than one farrier do it, and there was the example of the 'abusive' French NH trainer who was roundly criticized in a thread here recently. "But she didn't need to do it!" Is that the essential difference? Or does it come down to whether the violent action is effective or not?
 
I think that's completely different. She was booting it with no clear command on what to do when the horse was not behaving dangerously.

I think it comes down to effectiveness to a certain extent. But depends on your definition. I don't define terrifying a horse into never putting a foot out of line because you unpredictably might attack it effective. I don't think snacking a scared horse is effective either.

Personally I do it in dangerous situations (as described earlier) or to snap attention back on me. I just as often clap my hands/whistle/shout oi. It's not a smack for the physical force. I would never do it in anger or frustration either. I also think smack isn't necessarily the right word.
 
PandorasJar said:
I think that's completely different. She was booting it with no clear command on what to do when the horse was not behaving dangerously.
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I agree - but presumably she too could 'justify' her actions by pointing out that what she did was mild compared to what horses do to each other?

Indeed, someone posting in support of her wrote this: "First thing she tries to do is establish that although she is small, her space is to be respected. She has no stick, but neither do horses in a pasture, so she uses the tools she has, her body posture, her voice, the skinny rope halter, and when the horse tries to knock her down, she responds EXACTLY like horses respond to each other NATURALLY in a field with her feet! One let me point out that a 120 lb human kicking a 1200 lb horse with reg riding boots on, IS NOT causing ANY great PAIN or INJURY to the horse! She does however quickly and EFFECTIVELY establish respect for her space..." Was he/she wrong to claim this?

I think it's a dangerous argument because of how people use it. We can either reject it completely (which I am happy to do) or decide on a way to qualify it to discourage people from misapplying it.
 
Like everything else to do with horses, there are some people who are totally inept around them. They have no instinct, no feel, and no timing.These are the types of people who will use inappropriate discipline.

I only use a smack for one thing, and that's biting. That is because in all my many years with horses, I have found it to be the quickest and most understandable way of effectively dealing with it. However, with a young horse that does not understand what is expected of it around humans, then I will use other methods for some time before resorting to an upwards slap or elbow. With an older horse that DOES understand what is acceptable behaviour around humans, it would get an elbow or slap in the first instance. With an older horse that is new to me, and therefore I do not know what it understands, I will try other methods first.

ETA: I have thought about another situation where I have hit a horse, and that was when I was repeatably being slammed against the wall.
 
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cptrayes said:
Because life sometimes throws them a curved ball?

I think we have established already that I actually do not want my horses to be like zombies who never ever put a foot out of place and are minutely focussed on me at all times that I am in their sight.

I like my horses to be highly sensitive, and because of the way they are bred and the fact that they are very fit, they are highly sensitive.

This means that from time to time, rarely, they will, for example, forget their manners and stand blocking the stable door when I have opened it because they are so interested in the fact that a crisp packet has blown down the yard and is heading for them at high speed carried by the wind. In that situation, I say "back" once, and if they fail to respond to that I either slap or punch their shoulder about where the neck joins it. They reconnect with me and step back calmly. If I was to anthropomorphise I would say that they also appear to be apologetic for their lapse of manners :)

I do not, myself, see any failure of my training in that, or see any problem to the horse in that, and if you do, we will simply have to agree to differ.

But I can tell you that if your horses would NOT react in that situation, ever, that they would not be horses that I would want in my yard. I don't mean by that that there is anything wrong with your horses, just that I like horses with rather more spirit than other people do.





ps I have found a Facebook page which I think belongs to PR under his real name. If it is not him it is someone who appears to train his horses the same way. The page has on it lots of photos of horses doing what PR says that he does with his. Whether this is PR's page or not is largely irrelevant, what strikes me most about it is that in most of the photos the horses simply do not, to me, look either happy with or interested in, their work. If that's the result of this "kinder" way of training, I don't want that, either.
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Very good post, it's the glassy eyed automaton effect that put me right of the whole Parelli thing. If I trained my cheeky, happy and out going horse the the extent that he was semi catatonic I would be mortified. The people who are good at this type of training do often seem to end up with unnaturally subservient horses.
As for PR, well I wouldn't like to be his missus, put it that way....
 
fburton said:
"Horses sometimes behave violently towards each other, so it's alright for us to behave violently towards them - and anyway, we could never hurt them as much as they can hurt each other."

At first sight it would appear that some people buy into that argument wholesale and even excuse harsh treatment that way. But do they really?? (FWIW, I personally think it is crap.)
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Me too.

We are not horses, obviously, so why is it alright to hit, kick, chuck things at them because we see them being aggressive to each other? :confused: Do we speak 'horse'? I really think it's unfair to use hitting as a tool, yes there are times when a sharp slap in response to for eg a bite might be appropriate/inevitable and of course we do have reflex actions but in the main imho it stops us learning to read horses earlier signals and to use preemptive tactics.
What about thinking how to avoid putting a horse in a position where it feels the need to defend itself? What if we have misread a situation or missed a horses more subtle signals it is getting stressed/annoyed/upset? :confused:
 
amandap said:
What about thinking how to avoid putting a horse in a position where it feels the need to defend itself? What if we have misread a situation or missed a horses more subtle signals it is getting stressed/annoyed/upset? :confused:
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By this logic you would; avoid approaching horse thats reputed to bite, not attempt to reschool a nappy horse, not put a horse in a lorry, not take it to a show,not take it on the road...?

Horse's at times will get stressed/annoyed/upset by what we ask them to do, but they have to learn to deal with these things in an appropriate way, and that means not biting or barging all over humans/cars and so on. Not one person on here is trying to justify giving a horse a mindless hiding. I really can't see why some people are so against a smack delivered at the right time, and yet look to Natural Horsemanship as some kind of uber humane answer to all.
 
lastchancer said:
By this logic you would; avoid approaching horse thats reputed to bite, not attempt to reschool a nappy horse, not put a horse in a lorry, not take it to a show,not take it on the road...?

Horse's at times will get stressed/annoyed/upset by what we ask them to do, but they have to learn to deal with these things in an appropriate way, and that means not biting or barging all over humans/cars and so on. Not one person on here is trying to justify giving a horse a mindless hiding. I really can't see why some people are so against a smack delivered at the right time, and yet look to Natural Horsemanship as some kind of uber humane answer to all.
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:confused: By my logic it means reschooling/retraining not using the whip or 'bossing them'. I fully admit I am not the greatest trainer but there are many ways to train and retrain a horse that don't involve us forcing them with physical violence.

Surely if a horse is going to shows on roads etc. it is trained slowly over time to be used to these things to reduce stress levels? Why would that involve a slap delivered at the right time?

I am into my version of NH which looks to the horse for guidance about management as well as training. Why work against the horse?
 
fburton said:
I agree - but presumably she too could 'justify' her actions by pointing out that what she did was mild compared to what horses do to each other?

Indeed, someone posting in support of her wrote this: "First thing she tries to do is establish that although she is small, her space is to be respected. She has no stick, but neither do horses in a pasture, so she uses the tools she has, her body posture, her voice, the skinny rope halter, and when the horse tries to knock her down, she responds EXACTLY like horses respond to each other NATURALLY in a field with her feet! One let me point out that a 120 lb human kicking a 1200 lb horse with reg riding boots on, IS NOT causing ANY great PAIN or INJURY to the horse! She does however quickly and EFFECTIVELY establish respect for her space..." Was he/she wrong to claim this?

I think it's a dangerous argument because of how people use it. We can either reject it completely (which I am happy to do) or decide on a way to qualify it to discourage people from misapplying it.
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I believe the rest of my post and previous posts addressed this - I use it in dangerous situations, not as a generic training method.

I don't think that just because you physically haven't caused pain you haven't damaged that horse.

Horses haven't done this naturally in a field. They warn and follow through... but they don't drag a horse into their space to do this. I don't agree with any situation setting a horse up to fail in order to teach it something.
 
"violent" "harsh" "damage"

My goodness what strong and emotive words are being thrown around in this thread!

NONE of them apply to me occasionally slapping a horse or biffing it with a closed fist.

I really don't think we are all talking about the same thing here :(




I also don't believe that it is possible to physically damage a horse without causing it pain, it's not a fish it's a mammal and one highly tuned to feel pain, at that. The only thing which would be in pain is the human!
 
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If he gets in my space he gets a slap from the flat of my hand and yelled at and he quickly moves - if hes messing about out riding and is being a danger to us both and not listening to my leg I will back it up with the whip and if necessary, give him a smack to get him to move over - only once have I had to do this when he was prancing sideways up a lane as a car was trying to pass - I got to a place where there was room and he refused to move his backside in off the road - driver was being impatient and revving and I had images of him screeching past and hitting my horse so I smacked Arion on the rear and he quickly moved over. it was necessary to avoid an accident but I am not in the habit of hitting my horse for no good reason and there is a world of difference between discipline and abuse
 
cptrayes said:
"violent" "harsh" "damage"

My goodness what strong and emotive words are being thrown around in this thread!

NONE of them apply to me occasionally slapping a horse or biffing it with a closed fist.

I really don't think we are all talking about the same thing here :(
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It's the classic HHO deliberate misunderstanding and the love for scandal. Of course those who smack their horse occasionally for extremely rude/dangerous behaviour hit their horse ALL the time. They prob enjoy it too :rolleyes: And obviously a regular smack a day is a good tried and tested training method. I mean, I have a 'Smacking Sheet': bit like a Gold Star sheet but the opposite. Don't you?! And surely no one just slaps their horse once? Doesn't every one beat their horse multiple times to relieve frustration?
 
Kallibear said:
It's the classic HHO deliberate misunderstanding and the love for scandal. Of course those who smack their horse occasionally for extremely rude/dangerous behaviour hit their horse ALL the time. They prob enjoy it too :rolleyes: And obviously a regular smack a day is a good tried and tested training method. I mean, I have a 'Smacking Sheet': bit like a Gold Star sheet but the opposite. Don't you?! And surely no one just slaps their horse once? Doesn't every one beat their horse multiple times to relieve frustration?
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I beat them far more often when I am frustrated by being snowed in, as well. I'm sure they understand :D

At least this thread has kept me busy and given them some respite from my violence.
 
All those people who NEVER EVER hit their horses (elbow block, slap to the chest or nose with the back of the hand etc). I hope you never use bits, or rope halters (those knots cause a lot more pain than a slap with the back of the hand), or tighten girths, never frighten the horse with the end of the rope to move it forwards, never give the horse a corrective tug on the rope, never ride horses...
 
I was trying to question the rationale of 'it's ok to hit horses because they kick and bite each other'. I have fully understood most only do it when they feel they have to and for safety reasons. I would hit a horse if I was in danger and I thought it would work and I can't put my hand on my heart and say if a horse bit me I wouldn't lash out because I don't know. I will block a horse but I wouldn't add a jab to that block. I will use pressure to hold a horse too. My yanking days are long over though.

I just don't like hitting as a management and training tool, I realize it's a very personal choice. It is a choice in the vast majority of cases though.
 
cptrayes said:
"violent" "harsh" "damage"

My goodness what strong and emotive words are being thrown around in this thread!

NONE of them apply to me occasionally slapping a horse or biffing it with a closed fist.

I really don't think we are all talking about the same thing here :(
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"Violent" and "harsh" were brought up specifically in relation to the argument that hitting isn't a big deal because horses do worse to each other. You wouldn't justify occasionally slapping or biffing a horse on those grounds, would you? Clearly some people do!
 
amandap said:
I will use pressure to hold a horse too. My yanking days are long over though.
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That is interesting. So what would you do if presented by a heavyweight cob that took every opportunity to tank off with you when you were leading it? We all know that if you simply applied a constant (non yanking) pressure, he would win the argument hands down. What would you do in that situation? As a livery yard owner, I am sometimes presented with horses to care for in full livery that have been allowed to get away with behaviour such as this. I have to retrain them so that I can safely care for them. How would you tackle it?
 
Wagtail said:
All those people who NEVER EVER hit their horses (elbow block, slap to the chest or nose with the back of the hand etc). I hope you never use bits, or rope halters (those knots cause a lot more pain than a slap with the back of the hand), or tighten girths, never frighten the horse with the end of the rope to move it forwards, never give the horse a corrective tug on the rope, never ride horses...
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I don't think it's simply the degree of physical pain that causes the problem in many cases. The horse's perception, including of intent, is very important too. I'm sure the slap I gave the horse didn't really hurt. Nevertheless, the effects were long lasting. Perhaps the result would have been different had I delivered a reprimand without anger - I'm not sure.

A horse that gets a bump on the nose may react quite differently depending on whether it was delivered as an overt reprimand, with or without anger, or as a direct consequence of its own actions. I would much prefer to punish biting attempts with an elbow block (and have done so many times over the years) than by smacking the horse after the attempt has occurred. It's not just a matter of timing, though. With the former, there is a good chance the horse perceives the bump as 'self harm', and that he had better heed boundaries having come up against something hard. With the latter, the is more of a chance that the horse sees me as an aggressor (whether dominant or not in the social sense is to my mind irrelevant), and its effectiveness as a punishment may actually be reduced because a 'personal' element has been introduced. For example, if a stallion perceives a slap as an aggressive move, he is more likely to escalate aggressions himself. That is why I would always choose a blocking move to punish biting if that alternative is available.

Of course, the issue of why the horse is wanting to bite me in the first place needs to be addressed. Just mouthiness? Easy solution. Fear? Dislike? Dominance? That really should be a reason, unless one has been foolish enough to play dominance games by attempting to emulate the attitudes and actions of another horse. Simple aggressiveness then (e.g. hormonally driven)? Punishing the behaviour is appropriate, certainly, but being seen as aggressive oneself isn't helpful, in my experience. Much better to work towards getting the horse to relax and feel comfortable in your presence, rewarding good behaviour and attitude. However, one short paragraph can't do justice to such a large topic.

Regarding the other potential sources of pain that you mentioned - the equipment we use routinely - obviously we should take care to use them in ways that don't cause pain. Even if a degree of discomfort is unavoidable, we can aim to reduce it to the minimum necessary. In my opinion, that is a core principle of good horsemanship, whether we're talking about bit pressures, corrective tugs, or riding in general.
 
Wagtail said:
That is interesting. So what would you do if presented by a heavyweight cob that took every opportunity to tank off with you when you were leading it? We all know that if you simply applied a constant (non yanking) pressure, he would win the argument hands down. What would you do in that situation? As a livery yard owner, I am sometimes presented with horses to care for in full livery that have been allowed to get away with behaviour such as this. I have to retrain them so that I can safely care for them. How would you tackle it?
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One of two ways. Training to lead properly in a school or other safe low pressure environment to reduce risk of tanking. Lots of exercizes getting the horse to stop when I stop, turn with me and away from me and step back. I might well use a dually (there you go... controversy for you to jump on) for a more precise pressure and release and when the horse responds even in a tiny way and build up slowly. Lots of scratches the horse likes etc. when the horse responds in a way I wish. A normal head collar might well do for the safe training area but as I would need the horse to understand the dually nose pressure for more stressful leading I would use that.
I personally would use a dually (as opposed to a bit) and long 12ft lead rope for general leading (and control) until the horse had learned not to tank off through the lessons of understanding and responding to pressure through the release. I prefer to use the dually because I have used it and am confident how to use it without yanking but it still applies enough pressure to enable me to have a good chance of control (along with leverage of the long lead rope) if the horse did decide to tank. My belief is that the dually doesn't cause enough pressure to inflict pain unless it is yanked or the horse was tied to a solid object with the training rings. That's a big no no. It certainly applies discomfort which I admit could be painful if the horse tanked and took a very strong pull. I balance this discomfort with a need for safety and believe it is preferable to using a bit. Many disagree.

Or I would try my (cack) hand at clicker training the horse to stay with me, walk with me, stop with me etc. again in an environment less likely to provoke the tank until the leading is learned well and then progress to using it in more risky situations.

Some might prefer to use a rope head collar, horses for courses imo.

What would you do?

ps. I forgot to mention I would also look at ways I could change the environment or routine to reduce the risk of the tank.
 
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amandap said:
:confused: By my logic it means reschooling/retraining not using the whip or 'bossing them'. I fully admit I am not the greatest trainer but there are many ways to train and retrain a horse that don't involve us forcing them with physical violence.
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So tell me how I "school" my horse to not look nicely at me when I go up to the stable, step back like he should as i walk in and then suddenly turn for a bite? no warning or anything. some days he does it, some he doesnt.
 
amandap said:
:confused: By my logic it means reschooling/retraining not using the whip or 'bossing them'. I fully admit I am not the greatest trainer but there are many ways to train and retrain a horse that don't involve us forcing them with physical violence.

Surely if a horse is going to shows on roads etc. it is trained slowly over time to be used to these things to reduce stress levels? Why would that involve a slap delivered at the right time?

I am into my version of NH which looks to the horse for guidance about management as well as training. Why work against the horse?
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I didn't say that it would get a slap for been nervous, what I was questioning was your suggestion to avoid situations that the horse finds challenging, how is a young/untrained horse to learn anything if you never take him out of his comfort zone?
 
amandap said:
One of two ways. Training to lead properly in a school or other safe low pressure environment to reduce risk of tanking. Lots of exercizes getting the horse to stop when I stop, turn with me and away from me and step back. I might well use a dually (there you go... controversy for you to jump on) for a more precise pressure and release and when the horse responds even in a tiny way and build up slowly. Lots of scratches the horse likes etc. when the horse responds in a way I wish. A normal head collar might well do for the safe training area but as I would need the horse to understand the dually nose pressure for more stressful leading I would use that.
I personally would use a dually (as opposed to a bit) and long 12ft lead rope for general leading (and control) until the horse had learned not to tank off through the lessons of understanding and responding to pressure through the release. I prefer to use the dually because I have used it and am confident how to use it without yanking but it still applies enough pressure to enable me to have a good chance of control (along with leverage of the long lead rope) if the horse did decide to tank. My belief is that the dually doesn't cause enough pressure to inflict pain unless it is yanked or the horse was tied to a solid object with the training rings. That's a big no no. It certainly applies discomfort which I admit could be painful if the horse tanked and took a very strong pull. I balance this discomfort with a need for safety and believe it is preferable to using a bit. Many disagree.

Or I would try my (cack) hand at clicker training the horse to stay with me, walk with me, stop with me etc. again in an environment less likely to provoke the tank until the leading is learned well and then progress to using it in more risky situations.

Some might prefer to use a rope head collar, horses for courses imo.

What would you do?

ps. I forgot to mention I would also look at ways I could change the environment or routine to reduce the risk of the tank.
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Ok, but you can't get the horse to the arena without it tanking off. He will tank off in a dually or a rope head collar. This horse tanked off and dragged my 15 stone husband when he first arrived on the yard. Believe me, you could not stop this horse from tanking without using a stronger means than 'applying mild pressure'. Now, he leads perfectly on a long loose rope and doesn't routinely tank. But come the summer, if I am fetching him in, and he wants to get into the haylage in his stable, he will try it on again. Just the once, because he will need a reminder.

So, what did I do? I don't hit for this type of behaviour. Until the habit is broken I use the lead rope threaded through the headcollar and over his nose or a rope halter. If he starts to tank he gets a short sharp check on the rope and immediate release. I have all the horses leading on a long rope with plenty of slack.

But my point is, you are presented with this horse. You cannot safely get him to the arena to train him because he would tank off. You cannot use only mild pressure because you will lose. You have to use a 'check and release'. My point is, this will be uncomfortable. Probably more uncomfortable than a slap. Yet NH trainers use this kind of training. Nothing wrong with it, but it exerts just as much, if not more discomfort than a slap to the chest or nose with the back of your hand. Obviously slapping a horse for tanking would be inappropriate and ineffective.
 
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lastchancer said:
I didn't say that it would get a slap for been nervous, what I was questioning was your suggestion to avoid situations that the horse finds challenging, how is a young/untrained horse to learn anything if you never take him out of his comfort zone?
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I misunderstood. Of course you have to stretch the comfort zone but perhaps going slowly (slower for some) and rewarding and gradually building up confidence that way with lots of repetitions and rewards.
 
Wagtail said:
That is interesting. So what would you do if presented by a heavyweight cob that took every opportunity to tank off with you when you were leading it? We all know that if you simply applied a constant (non yanking) pressure, he would win the argument hands down. What would you do in that situation? As a livery yard owner, I am sometimes presented with horses to care for in full livery that have been allowed to get away with behaviour such as this. I have to retrain them so that I can safely care for them. How would you tackle it?
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Wagtail. I think a lot of people never consider that a yard owner has lots of horses to handle, and doesn't always have time to mess about with other peoples pig ignorant bovine half ton darlings :)
I know how I'd handle the above big cob -Slip halter/war bridle, let it run itself into the pressure. Severe, and not something I particularly like to do. A constant dead pull would just give him something to lean against.

I'm not sure why a lot of people feel dually halters and pressure halters are preferable to a bit, in my humble opinion they can be more severe than a bit, and very damaging on the soft nose and poll tissues, they should only be used as a last resort, and with caution.
 
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