Do you think equines are more ruined these days by novice owners etc?

[indie999]

Just my observation where I am from I know two new to horsey people with ££ buy youngster thinking its like a dog or they can send it way to parelli backer etc and that they will have a ready made horse. They are then suprised to run into problems so sell the horse on as if its the horses fault...or think they can train a horse with a bit of help from the groom who is expected to take all the tumbles etc Well read but not experienced horse folk??

Now the reason I am asking this is forward 13 years on and I am seeing lots of nice people telling me porkers when selling their bestest horse that they got for XYZ reason and have probably ruined it themselves? Are there too many novices or people well read claiming to be expert? I am thinking back to my rose tinted past where 20 horses that I rode only one or two had bad issues(like would eat you) but the rest were 110% motorway proof etc and did the job? Not all this fussing around it needs the back person/dentist/physio/supplements/calmers/drugs etc etc???

 

[LouS]

I don't know, I find people are a lot less knowledgeable and/or a lot more nervous than I used to find people when I was growing up. I'm not sure why, but I find competent, knowledgeable owners few and far between on the yards I've been on, which wouldn't be a problem if people actually knew that they were inexperienced and asked for help, but a lot of people seem to think they're much more capable than they actually are.

 

[Mrs C]

I don't personally think it's down to novice owners. You can get some very clued up novice owners. I also know some very experienced people who have made their bed so to speak. I won't say ruined as that's quite a hard word, but they have shown negative behaviours through how they're treated

 

[Troyseph]

I've only been in the horsey game around 16 years since I was 7... I don't remember much from when I was younger though my parents dealt with all that hassle!

However, I believe that yes I do agree somewhat with what you're saying, more and more novices are opting for buying their own horse, a lot being unsuitable (want something bigger flashier etc) or you get the old "buy an unbroken horse or foal, bring it up you two will learn together"

This situation equals an absolute distaster, a novice horse and a novice rider/ owner will not learn together, the rider will teach the horse nothing but bad habits, knock their confidence and then be labelled a "bad" horse,

I also think too many novices are buying horses too soon without adequate riding or general horse knowledge or experience.

But then with riding lesson prices nowadays I can see why people are opting to buy their own, my boy costs less t keep than me having 1 private lesson a week I'm not in anyway advocating this though, I think you should have a lot of lessons, offer your help where possible at the stables etc before venturing into buying a horse.

Enough of the rambling and back to the subject
Yes I do think lack of knowledge ruins horses of course,I'm not sure if it's more present now,but yes it happens a lot.

And it won't change either, sadly. I also don't think instructors are as helpful anymore or personal? My old instructor would go with me to see potential horses, give advice, anything...with no charges, we were good friends, and I could ask her anything, I don't think this is the case that much anymore?.

 

[vienna]

The riding world is very strange indeed to me...
For example I have owned/trained ridden hundreds of horses/ponies from a child.
I still have yet to meet one who needed help with back and teeth checked and new saddle and bridle etc etc.
And yes I have had some difficult rearing, napping, bucking horses brought for cheap or gifted
All of them have improved with lots of turn out, minimal time in stable, lots of love and care, followed by firmness with a kind hand(not spiteful)I find a used saddle that fits them the best I can! I admit that
and mainly just accepting horses limitations, not all can go in wonderful outline and jump 4 foot gates.
Some might be a little crooked some days (as are we) time off is needed..
However I simply could not afford to go down made to measure saddle route, regular back person and this new reikki thing
It could be luck but I just like to follow common sense.

 

[Spiritedly]

Part of the problem is so many young horses are going for peanuts so some are buying a horse for less than they would pay for a dog. I agree about the price of lessons and round here you have to pay for your child to go and help out at the stables too ! We used to help out just for a chance of a free lesson and learnt along the way. I'm wondering if there will be an increase of over horsed novices after the Olympics when people decide they want a dressage horse etc even if they've never had a lesson.

 

[Kaylum]

Its seems that people when they ride at a riding school thats all they do. They dont seem to bother taking stable management lessons or even think they are important. Tobehonest riding schools could do a lot more for potential horse owners.

 

[annaellie]

In some ways yes as already mentioned novices now go out and buy the big flashy horses with power and brains were as years ago most novices started on the schoolmasters and moved up as they gained more experance and knowledge. I remember the big powerful horses being rare on most yards.

I also believe that back in the days you had less choice in what you could put your horse in from saddles to bits etc also the feeds were not the mixes you have today, you fed straights you knew what was going into your hoorse. I think this plays a big part, yes I have also been guilty of feeding mixes so not saying its a bad thing.

I also feel years ago there was more of a community and helpful sprit on yards and the horse masters shared their knowledge, nowdays people are so busy fitting everything in the time lacks for that.

I dont know if any of this contributes to horses being ruined but I do wonder

 

[ladyt25]

I do partly agree to be honest and there does seem to be a heck of a lot of 'problem horses' out there than I ever remember seeing when I was growing up and throughout my teenage years. Most of the 'problems' seem to be bad manners that anything as well - ie bad on the ground/napping, general rudeness that sort of thing.

I don't know what the root cause is but some of me thinks it is the whole change of how people are introduce to riding, it is a lot more sterile (if that's the right word) than it used to be. When I was learning to ride, there weren't any riding schools who had an arena. You had lessons in areas of open fields that the horses also grazed in. In winter you didn't have lessons so you'd go for an hr long hack on roads, tracks, through fields etc. Therefore you learnt to deal with a lot of situations from the word go.

These days the majority of first lessons are in an enclosed arena going round and round in a controlled way. People do not learn to deal with hacking on roads, meeting cars, tractors or indeed just cantering through a field with another horse(s). There is MUCH more to being able to ride than just being able to sit to the horses gaits and pop a little fence.

THIS is where I think the problems stem from. People learn to ride in the school environment, decide they can do it and then the next obvious step is they decide to get their own horse. I don't think many do the necessary groundwork and just assume it will be easy - for some reason forgetting a horse is indeed an animal and is unpredictable.

For some it will work, if they are a naturally confident person anyway and have a natural way with animals but for others they come undone as, as we know, horses are not daft and even the nicest one will soon realise who has the upper hand and will take advantage! I also think there is a lot of conflicting advice out there when it comes ot how to handle horses and I think that must be confusing for those new to the game.

I have no problems with a true novice learning as they go and asking for help - we all have to learn somewhere. The ones who get me are those who think they know best and will not have anyone say otherwise. Ultimately the horse then suffers which is what angers me.

 

[PaddyMonty]

A little knowledge has always been a dangerous thing.
Add in the lack of structured route to horse ownership and yep, there will be problems.

 

[ThePony]

I don't think it is something you can attribute to a particular level of owner, I think the problems arrise when you land yourself in over your head, but are then unwilling to admit that to yourself and others and get some good help in. Struggling on when out of your depth creates problems I think wether you are a novice or more experienced.

It also seems much more popular to 'save' or 'rescue' a horse that might be going to be shot. The problem is that there is often a good reason that the horse is going to end it's days. You aren't going to find a decent horse sent for meat, simply because people aren't going to throw money away like that! If the horse is sound enough and sane enough to have any sort of future then you will get more by selling it than you will for meat. If the horse only has meat value then you seriously have to ask yourself why, and if you really have the skills to 'rescue' it. You can't just get it home and think that lots of love and hugs will fix the horse and make it your best friend forever. It is a rose tinted view that more often than not ends in tears.

I also agree that it is possible to pick up a horse for far to little money. You can buy a riding horse now for far less than my lovely aged pony was bought from the sales for nearly 20 years ago!! Utter madness!

 

[TicTac]

I don't know, I find people are a lot less knowledgeable and/or a lot more nervous than I used to find people when I was growing up. I'm not sure why, but I find competent, knowledgeable owners few and far between on the yards I've been on, which wouldn't be a problem if people actually knew that they were inexperienced and asked for help, but a lot of people seem to think they're much more capable than they actually are.

Spot on!

 

[Troyseph]

The riding world is very strange indeed to me...
For example I have owned/trained ridden hundreds of horses/ponies from a child.
Some might be a little crooked some days (as are we) time off is needed..
However I simply could not afford to go down made to measure saddle route, regular back person and this new reikki thing
It could be luck but I just like to follow common sense.

I agree so much with this.
I have owned 6 horses, in which 5 I never had any problems, not even lameness to deal with, the other 1 had a suspected back problem, but she was from a dealer who took her back and that was that, I then decided I'd personally only buy privately again.

My boys now, both live out 24/7, barefoot, on grass and hay only, no feeding supplements etc have the back and teeth people out every 6 months as standard and never had problems, its just to ease my mind, I fit the saddles myself, and I do believe it's all common sense.

I've never used any physio, reiki, or any of these fangled things.I'm not saying they're no good, because I'm sure they're great for horses who need them, I'm either just very lucky, or I'm doing something right.,

However I think more and more problems are caused by more people becoming more competitive and the like. I don't compete my horses that often, maybe a few local shows in the summer and that's it, I'd also never risk my horse at silly x country comps etc, the amount of horses I've seen ruined for life, or had to be pts following cross country injuries is ridiculous, I'll jump logs and some smaller things but I'd never want to endanger my horse for the sake of winning.

 

[Lolo]

I don't think the novice owners are a problem as long as they're surrounded by sensible and experienced people and they listen to them.

When we got our first ponies, we were novice owners- my sister and I were very young (9 and 6 I think?) and our parents had very little to do with horses beyond being very interested (so asked loads of questions at the RS) and supportive. But we were on a private yard with a very knowledgeable PC family and then moved to another yard with an eventer. Both these people provided constant help and support, got us doing all the PC stuff and we all learnt very very quickly because of it. They also provided a lot of help finding us ponies. Now, 11 years later my mum is hugely knowledgeable and is amazing at managing how we keep horses. This has also rubbed off on my sister who is also good at practical horsecare. We were all total novices, but it worked fine because of the set up.

 

[annaellie]

I don't think the novice owners are a problem as long as they're surrounded by sensible and experienced people and they listen to them.

When we got our first ponies, we were novice owners- my sister and I were very young (9 and 6 I think?) and our parents had very little to do with horses beyond being very interested (so asked loads of questions at the RS) and supportive. But we were on a private yard with a very knowledgeable PC family and then moved to another yard with an eventer. Both these people provided constant help and support, got us doing all the PC stuff and we all learnt very very quickly because of it. They also provided a lot of help finding us ponies. Now, 11 years later my mum is hugely knowledgeable and is amazing at managing how we keep horses. This has also rubbed off on my sister who is also good at practical horsecare. We were all total novices, but it worked fine because of the set up.

Agree 100% with this

 

[Wagtail]

Interesting thread. I think the main reason that there didn't seem to be so much 'faffing about' with back, teeth, tack etc as someone has refered to it, is A) because we were not so medically advanced 20 years ago, and B) horses that exhibited bucking, rearing and napping were automatically labled 'spirited' or 'dangerous' or 'quirky' and most just got the bullet! Now the more knowlegable of horse people know that ninety nine percent of the time there is a reason for bad behaviour. That may be due to pain, bad management or psychological reasons.

I also think that virtually ALL horses are capable of working in a correct outline. In fact, I have not met one who couldn't (and who wasn't compromised by some painful condition). I would say that if a horse cannot work in a correct outline then it is due to incorrect training, incompetent riding or a physical (painful) issue.

 

[luckyoldme]

I think a lot of it is the must have now thing.
I bought my idx and thought i would just hoy a saddle on him and we would live happily every after.
After a few trips to casualty i gave the idea up as a bad one and decided to keep said horse as a field ornament and find a nice cob.
At this stage i found that all i could do was turn him out and bring him in to fuss. Out of this we gradually built up a bond and learnt to trust each other. It took about 6 months to go out hacking and about two years to completely trust him.
I was very lucky that my horse took the time out to train me up at his own pace. (very slowly)
I would do it all again but much slower... in escence i agree with Vienna.

 

[ladyt25]

I've never used any physio, reiki, or any of these fangled things.I'm not saying they're no good, because I'm sure they're great for horses who need them, I'm either just very lucky, or I'm doing something right.,

However I think more and more problems are caused by more people becoming more competitive and the like. I don't compete my horses that often, maybe a few local shows in the summer and that's it, I'd also never risk my horse at silly x country comps etc, the amount of horses I've seen ruined for life, or had to be pts following cross country injuries is ridiculous, I'll jump logs and some smaller things but I'd never want to endanger my horse for the sake of winning.

Who do you use to treat your horse's backs if it's not a physio or chiro? I don't agree that people are becoming more competitive to be honest, I do think the standard of competitions at a local level though has improved a heck of a lot and this maybe encourages more people to have a go which is only a good thing as it is another way of learning.

I have competed at varying levels (never anything massive but decent sized XC/SJ) since I was 10 yo and still do like to compete and touch wood none of my ponies and horses over the years have sustained any serious, career ending injuries. Most injuries I have known have occurred in the field or out hacking.

 

[myhorsefred]

I think there are a lot more DIY livery yards around now. Therefore, new owners are thrown into a do it yourself situation, with maybe not the support of an on-site riding school/instructor.

When I learnt to ride (more than 30+ years ago) if you wanted to own your own horse, typically it would be kept at the riding school, or on a full/part livery basis, where at least you could ask for help as and when you needed it.

I know a lot of farmers around here who have diversified and turned their farms into DIY livery. Lots with no previous knowledge of horse owning, and you are left to your own devices. I think that's when the opportunity for new/novice owners to get things wrong is at its greatest.

 

[Orangehorse]

I suppose we started out as "novice owners" and I have been riding for, wait for it - 50 years. But we bought our first pony from an old time dealer, whose children were friends and used to go to the local shows every week and took their horses hunting in the winter.
We joined Pony Club and had to hack to meets. People in those days a) had their horses at home as they owned enough land, tended to be horse people, b) kept a hunter at a hunter livery or c) rented a field.

What you didn't have were many livery yards where more or less anyone can rent a stable and a field. There has also been an explosion in the number of horses and ponies in the country. There are more horses now than before cars when they were working and a means of transport (more people too of course).

I think there is a big lack of the old "nagsman" who would break-in and train a young horse, the old experienced groom who had been handling horses all their lives and had enough knowledge to avoid problems.

There is a lot of hard work and knowledge required to school a young horse. The hard work starts after the horse is broken to ride and this is when it can all go wrong, sadly for the horse.

I am very saddened that there are so many spoilt and "project horses" when with all the books, videos, training opportunities you would think that there would be a national full of nice, well schooled pleasant horses to ride whether sports or family horses. Sadly it seems that a good, ordinary horse is the hardest to find.

 

[Mlini]

Novice girl has small budget to buy a horse, so buys a youngster and breaks it herself. Great plan, if you know what you are doing. In the end, it all went wrong. Horse was branded a rearer and sold on for pennies.

Same girl buys a young TB, is nervous around him because he is an 'exracer' doesn't ride him forwards etc... He has gone from a bombproof hack and schooling/jumping well, to a nervous wreck in and out of the school.

This girl has little experience in the horse world - she did 6 months weekend work at a riding school with monthly lessons then decided she wanted her own. There is little that she can do with these horses by herself. She wont ask for help or seek any form of professional tuition. You give advice, she doesn't listen. You help with the horse, she ruins the work you've done next week.

I have seen so many horses ruined by novice owners. Most of the time there is nothing you can do.

 

[Maesfen]

Not necessarily. An ewe necked horse sometimes finds it impossible to go in a correct outline, the same goes for a horse that has an upside down neck and so on. They're not painful issues, they're conformation issues and as such should be accommodated not made into painful issues by forcing into an outline. Accept the limitations due to the build of your horse.

OP -

 

[vienna]

Wagtail, I train all my horses to accept a nice contact or outline and most horses trained properly from the start can achieve this.
Yes I agree..
I am talking of horses whom are older, much older who have never worked or been trained to go in one all their life.
Does it matter if they dont?
Does it matter if some days a horse is a little unlevel, if it is happy to be caught, mounted, have a little canter and pop a little jump.
There is room in the world for all these horses and ponies and lots of them give more fun than a bred in the purple competition horse that no one can seem to get anything from (on some days)
Must they be probed and examined at the cost of of ££££££££
Must their owners be made to feel they are not up to top standards
All as I am saying is the horse does not care how much you know, just how much he likes you(and visa versa)

 

[catkin]

Hmm, not quite sure - I think that there is so much pressure these days that in the end something's got to give......
Sometimes it seems like enjoying a horse isn't thought to be quite enough - it's got to be competing, then it's got to specialise and be something. With this insidious background 'noise' it's going to affect people, and then reflect in the horses.

 

[ponypilotmum]

Preparing to be shot down here, but..

certainally when I was a child there wasn't the amount of horses about as there are these days. But we had RS ponies who couldn't be hacked. We had super strong ones, bolters, ones that shied, reared, but we learnt on them and it was a case of one saddle fitted most.
We never had back people or teeth people, the vet rasped their teeth if they needed it. We fed straights and we didn;t rug the hairies, or clip them.

If they were naughty they were dealt with. You hacked them out in heavy traffic to get used to it. I exercised eventers for a professional in my early twenties, and none, (that I recall), did anything unspeakable. You just accepted that they were super fit and that ending up in the ditch was part of life. But that if you did end up in the ditch you'd get a damn good rollocking back at the yard for LETTING them get you off. You learnt to sit tight and use your legs and stick. They were ridden in a snaffle or a pelham. The strong ones in a dutch gag. And yes, if they were fresh or apt to bolting you took them up the canalside and worked it off of them. No calmers, just darn hard gallop. They had a job to do, and they were hacked for miles DAILY to keep fit. They were turned out for two hours a day. EVERY day. These were expensive eventers that the likes of me was priviledged to ride. The youngsters (under 6's) were ONLY ever ridden by the boss. Grooms never sat on their backs. They had routine, discipline (you didn't get the RSPCA on your doorstep for cracking them across the flanks when they reared in those days) and they were treated like what they were - Working horses.

These days too many horses compete on a level the owner has no real time for. The horses are kept stabled and rugged, fed potion after potion and go insane with no real routine. Too many novices back horses.

I blame stories like Jinny and Fly by night, because anyone can buy a unhandled youngster from a field and break it in. Right? Seems to be that childhood generation that are doing it....

 

[Shantara]

I think it depends a LOT on who you have around you and if you'll ask for help. I have lots of help around me and although Ned isn't mine, I do most of his 'extra curriculum activities' but I couldn't have done it alone, I don't think and I will ask his owner, or on here what people think is best.

There was a woman where I used to work who bought a horse because her yacht had broken :O I don't know what became of it, but all I could think was "eeek!!"

 

[vienna]

In answer to 'who do I get to treat my horses back'
The simple answer is this
I have never had a horse with a bad back, I have had many horses and ponies and none of them have had a bad back
So no one is used!
I have a bad back the result of years of riding and some bad falls on green horses. I have no treatment if I have a bad back it usually lasts a week. I dont ride for this time, it heals itself.
I have to be tough, my horses have to be tough. I live in the real world.
None of them had bad backs, I inherited projects
They all came good
And NONE had bad backs.

 

[Keimanp]

Having been around horses for nearly 20 years now (that is really scary being able to write it down, although I did start in my single didgits!) I would think it is happening more now than it did 20 years ago.

Granted over the years I have become more experienced and with age comes awareness.

I would say that horse ownership has become more accessible to a wider demographic of people. With more peolpe coming into the industry, the wide literature that is available on multilple platforms for 'self taught', the decline of riding establishments coinciding the increased ability to have a 'house with room for a pony' it is inevitable that there will be more 'problem' horses.

 

[Shantara]

It also seems much more popular to 'save' or 'rescue' a horse that might be going to be shot. The problem is that there is often a good reason that the horse is going to end it's days. You aren't going to find a decent horse sent for meat, simply because people aren't going to throw money away like that! If the horse is sound enough and sane enough to have any sort of future then you will get more by selling it than you will for meat. If the horse only has meat value then you seriously have to ask yourself why, and if you really have the skills to 'rescue' it. You can't just get it home and think that lots of love and hugs will fix the horse and make it your best friend forever. It is a rose tinted view that more often than not ends in tears.

Not always! Neddy was on his way to the meat man and although he's got a whole host of issues, we're getting through them on by one and I think he's got the potential to be a fab little horse.
Though, I do partially agree, I've heard some horror stories of people getting horses who were going to be PTS or for meat and it just prolonged everyone's suffering.

 

[Keimanp]

I also think that virtually ALL horses are capable of working in a correct outline. In fact, I have not met one who couldn't (and who wasn't compromised by some painful condition). I would say that if a horse cannot work in a correct outline then it is due to incorrect training, incompetent riding or a physical (painful) issue.

I would agree with this