Do you think my horse needs more condition?

[Rowreach]

Nicole, seeing your horse for the first time but having had a bit of a pm conversation previously with you about physios I am going to come right out and say it - I really don't rate the person you have been using and think your horse would really benefit from a visit from the veterinary physio I use that I told you about. She is highly qualified, very experienced with racehorses and ex-racers, and the results she gets are quite amazing. If you are working him correctly there is no reason why his topline should look like it does, unless there is another problem, and if he is uneven through his quarters there will be a reason for it which may well be sortable.

Sorry, I am renowned for my plain speaking

 

[kerryflower]

and yes bum will be less pointy with more muscle being built up. A lot of long and low work and then normal outline stuff. My physio got me to lunge in side reins between legs to encourage long and low with tail bandage round bum (so tied to each side of roller but around back of bum so liek cheap pessoa i guess) just for ten mins each side a day to encourage him to use his back muscles properly. But it was never very bootylicious! will try find ome pics now

 

[NicoleS_007]

Nicole, seeing your horse for the first time but having had a bit of a pm conversation previously with you about physios I am going to come right out and say it - I really don't rate the person you have been using and think your horse would really benefit from a visit from the veterinary physio I use that I told you about. She is highly qualified, very experienced with racehorses and ex-racers, and the results she gets are quite amazing. If you are working him correctly there is no reason why his topline should look like it does, unless there is another problem, and if he is uneven through his quarters there will be a reason for it which may well be sortable.

Sorry, I am renowned for my plain speaking

haha i thought said person was rather good lmao Said person is coming to see him again next week lol After the first physio when we started lunging him his neck seemed alot now relaxed (round and towards ground instead of up in the air) well we shall see lmao

 

[jaypeebee]

I think he looks better in the second photo! lol well each to there own ... I would say he is pretty light weight! his saddle is a medium narrow with extra stuffing! Well hes probably the most lightweight horse in our yard anywho ...

I am a TB breeder and if he were one of mine I would want more condition on him. He looks fairly middle of the road to me but I wouldnt say he is lightweight. He looks more like a middleweight TB who needs more conditioning. I am not surprised that your saddle needs extra stuffing as he has no topline. The feed suggestions you have been given from the feed company would run in line with what I would be feeding too at somewhere around 6lbs to 8lbs per day. With good nutrition and a good work plan you will start to see a difference.

 

[Sparkles]

I honestly do not see anything strikingly wrong with him....He just looks like a lean fit horse tbh. His coat is shiny, seems bright and alert. All I'd say is keep working on muscling him up and getting his topline up more if you can. A little bit more weight wouldn't be a bad thing if he did happen to gain a bit as the grass comes through...but certainly not a desperate 'oh my god poor horse feed it' scenario.

I feel your pain though....I'd love my horse [ex-racer] to have perfect topline and a rounded bum. Even on the top amount of feed and lunging work, hill work, build up work etc, he sadly just isn't built to have the perfect topline and rounded bum...he's long in the back and has a flat/pointy bum for conformation, which with all the amount of feed and correct work cannot change.

Edited - I think he looks much better in the 2nd photo also

 

[fatponee]

I have an ex-racer who I bought last summer. He looked to be in the same condition as your horse as he was recently out of racing. I've fed him to improve his topline and 'round off' his pointy bits ie. ribs, and over his bum and to help his neck. As he's no longer racing, he doesn't need to be as lean as he was.

In order to improve topline and build muscle, a horse needs a bit of weight that he can make muscle out of.

I've had luck feeding my boy Bailey's conditioning cubes and Saracen Barley rings. Condition went on in no time as he is worked 6 days a week hacking, schooling and jumping. His ribs are covered but you can still feel them easily. His bum is nice and round but he is NOT FAT!!

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[anuvb]

Haven't read all the replies but yes I do think your horse needs more condition. I hate fat horses but I'd be really worried if mine was as poor as that.


If you're not sure whether it's his 'type' or not, how about just putting him onto a conditioning feed (full ration) for a month or two, then take another picture and judge for yourself? A couple of months isn't going to turn him into an instantly obese animal if he's naturally skinny and if I were you I'd be monitoring him fairly carefully with a weight tape to give you an indication of his weight gain/loss over the next few months and use the feed companies charts to see where he fits in relation to his 'ideal' weight - Saracen horse feeds has a nice chart on its website which breaks down weight by height and build.

Good luck with sorting him out he looks a real sweetie.

 

[anuvb]

PS - it's not that he looks 'ill' as such (sorry realised after re-reading mypost it came across a bit strongly!) as his coat looks good, but I would question whether he's getting enough nutrition for the amount of work he's doing. To some extent additional correct exercise will create muscle and make his topline and bum look rounder, but if he doesn't have the building blocks in his diet to do it, no amount of correct work will put the muscle on.

I really struggled to keep condition on mine this winter with the harsh weather and slow spring, and he's a trak/tb type but at no point did he lack muscle tone quite like yours. A decent physio - correct work (not just put into an outline) and a good feed should transform him and I think he will be a real looker.

 

[sonjafoers]

Your original post was about Winergy Equilibrium & I would give it a try. You could also try it with pink powder for a while.

It is expensive but it's such good stuff you will probably be glad you tried it - even if it's only in the short term. I'm not getting into any weight or condition debate about your horse, but 2 winters ago my TB came up very VERY light and looked awful, as I posted previously to you she wintered on Winergy Equilibrium Condition this year and came through it looking fantastic.

You may or may not want the conditioning one, although I see winergy have recommended it, but they are all great.

I'm not affiliated to them in any way but it was your original query!

 

[NicoleS_007]

I should of made a poll haha ... Will defo be trying differnt feeds as the spillers has just made him shiney and nothing more! He takes literally about 40mins to warm up and actually working from behind, then hes great to ride even got him doing a shoulder-in up the centre line ... When the physio was out she said that the lack of topline over his withers may have extended from him chipping his navicular bone! but he is sound so we shall see what happens shall keep us posted

 

[AmyMay]

ps is it posible to make his "triangle" shaped bottom more rounder through muscling?

Yes if course, once you get some more grub in him so that he's got the building blocks to actually build the muscle.

 

[SirenaXVI]

TBH I too think he is a little on the lean side, ribs should be felt but not seen and he has 'poverty' lines each side of his quarters, the sacroiliac joint is clearly visible. He also lacks muscle and has none along his back or on his neck. I would question the fit of his saddle too, as, if he is working in a correct outline, I would not expect to see the lack of muscle that is obviously there.

I would not say he was a lightweight TB, more a middleweight.

Fat does not turn into muscle, but you need to feed good quality protein in order for the horse to gain muscle. Soya oil is good for this, along with Vit E and selenium which is a must if you feed high quantities of oil. A conditioning feed should be high in DE which will give the horse the energy to work in order to make the muscle. Look for a DE of 12.5 +.

I would also work him long and low to stretch him over his back and encourage the right muscles.

BTW I very much dislike fat horses and would rather see one a little lean over one overweight but this chap is too lean for my liking.

 

[samantha1973]

My horse sounds just the same as yours, tb, 9 year old, we got him Sept last year and looked just like yours. We feed Allen & Page Calm and Condition which has been great over the winter, we have a weekly flat lesson and hack out lots and he is just coming good. Lunging is good, the pessoa device is good as they are rewarded for working in a rounded outline, and this helps develop his muscle. He looks alot better already so your on the right track, lots of time grazing and whenever he comes in to be groomed ridden etc we always make sure he has haylage to eat, maybe if your still feeding give him three small feeds instead of a large one. Hope this helps.

 

[Mike007]

I am quietly laughing at an awfull lot of the replies.Firstly, you are,to put it bluntly, a **** photographer..If I were your horse I would sue you..The coat looks healthy and says to me that he is on the plus side ,feed wise . (he is gaining weight rather than loosing it). Giving more protein will not build more muscle,they can only build it according to their own metabolism,and the work given. Very few horses are short of any aminoacids(protein building blocks). However,if you give too much,the body has to break them down and deaminate them,which puts a strain on the liver and kidneys.His sholders and quaters dont look bad to me ,for a TB. However ,working towards more top line would be good,but dont try to make it happen quickly.You would do more harm than good.Nice horse,lousy photographer.

 

[brighteyes]

Based purely on the fact horses usually look fatter in photo's than they are in RL, I'd say you might not be giving him the right feed for the amount of work he is doing - either type or quantity. He isn't in anything like hard work and unless he is a picky eater, adlib top quality forage and some balancer, or maybe the addition of some oil and a good quality cube will be plenty to keep him going and 'fill' his big frame whilst providing him with the energy he needs to perform and build his muscle up. Constant chomping is the most beneficial way, too.

I can't bear even remotely chubby animals (the owner of the 'skinny chestnut' must be having a laugh, surely?) and although we are only talking a very very few kilos, I think yours may just need them.

I would not be using any of the topline feeds or conditioning mixes/cubes etc., no matter what, as I have no idea where these fit into a horse's diet. Even ancient and thin animals fill out on high fibre-based mashes. Horses in the wild do not access grain and cereals. IMO bucket-feed should be kept to a minimum and only contain essential extras. Owners are obsessed for the most part. We have a showjumper who is very fit and in fab, lean condition, shines like the sun and has energy to spare. She gets haylage and grass. Not another thing. Economical, too. I have four on that exact, same diet, except the Welshie wears a grazing muzzle!

 

[spotty_pony]

IMO he doesn't look too bad for his type. I have seen ex racehorses in far worse condition! I would suggest you feed some sort of conditioning cubes to keep him like this though as if you are planning on working him harder to increase topline/muscle this will stop him losing weight.

 

[AmyMay]

His sholders and quaters dont look bad to me ,for a TB

We have TB's in training on the yard - none of them have poor quarters. Indeed you only had to look at those magnificent animals running in the Derby on the weekend to see what a truly fit, well muscled, well fed TB actually looks like.

 

[SirenaXVI]

I am quietly laughing at an awfull lot of the replies.Firstly, you are,to put it bluntly, a **** photographer..If I were your horse I would sue you..The coat looks healthy and says to me that he is on the plus side ,feed wise . (he is gaining weight rather than loosing it). Giving more protein will not build more muscle,they can only build it according to their own metabolism,and the work given. Very few horses are short of any aminoacids(protein building blocks). However,if you give too much,the body has to break them down and deaminate them,which puts a strain on the liver and kidneys.His sholders and quaters dont look bad to me ,for a TB. However ,working towards more top line would be good,but dont try to make it happen quickly.You would do more harm than good.Nice horse,lousy photographer.

Protein is essential for repairing tissues and is one of the main constituents of soft tissue including muscle, without protein the horse cannot function and it needs a continuous supply of these amino acids, especially lysine and methionine. Protein rich feeds coupled with correct work are known to build muscle and one of the signs of lack of protein in the diet is loss of muscle and condition.

Too much protein in the diet is simply urinated away and does no lasting harm - too much protein would be around 12%+ of the diet. Protein is not the bad guy, that sort of thinking is very outdated and harks back to the time when people thought (and some still do) that protein was a major cause of laminitis, thankfully due to extensive research we now know much more about the way the horse metabolates feed.

 

[Mike007]

I am well aware that laminitis isnow linked to sugars rather than protein. I also stand by the fact that it is quite unlikely that on a modern horsefeed diet,that the horse is deficient in any of the aminoacids,even the sulphur containing ones.Too much protein is not Simply urinated away, it has to be deaminated first and yes ,this does put a strain on the liver and kidneys.(I am old enough to remember a certain racehorse trainers disasterous attempt to feed high protein diets).

 

[Mike007]

We have TB's in training on the yard - none of them have poor quarters. Indeed you only had to look at those magnificent animals running in the Derby on the weekend to see what a truly fit, well muscled, well fed TB actually looks like.

My point was not that a TB has poor quaters,but that they will never have the shape of quaters that for example a Dutch warm blood has.Tb,s are bred for speed and have a very different shape to their quaters..So for a TB his quaters are not poor

 

[SirenaXVI]

We will have to agree to differ Mike007

Going by the BHS table, I would say this horse was a 2 (Moderate) on the scale, ie he is slightly underweight

http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/Ho... Care/Publication PDFs/Condition Scoring.ashx

 

[AmyMay]

My point was not that a TB has poor quaters,but that they will never have the shape of quaters that for example a Dutch warm blood has.Tb,s are bred for speed and have a very different shape to their quaters..So for a TB his quaters are not poor

TB's do indeed have a different quarter shape from many other horses, indeed most breeds (I'm sure we'll agree) have different shaped everything. My point, perhaps not well made, was that he has undernourished quarters - notwithstanding his breeding.

We have P2P's on the yard who do not have a lack of well rounded and defined quarters. And my further point was that neither did the Derby runners on Saturday.

 

[_HP_]

In short, yes I think he is really quite lean and I would definitely like to see more cover and more muscle along his whole topline

Cripes....I would say he is an ideal weight and will no doubt put on some muscle with work.

 

[Ranyhyn]

I was lead to believe it was "feel ribs" not see ribs, so for that reason I'd want a little more - however if he's coping with the workload and is bright and happy I'd like to say leave him as he is.

 

[ester]

Cripes....I would say he is an ideal weight and will no doubt put on some muscle with work.

but he is in a fair amount of work.

 

[Cliqmo]

OP can I encourage you to PM Prince33Sparkle on here? (assuming I haven't missed their post on here already They are doing an amazing job with their ex racehorse and may be able to offer some advice