do you think putting a 14.3h mare to a 16.1 stallion is too big for her first time??

It's not so much height differences that can be the problem, it's more when people use different types that the mare can run into trouble foaling down ie. large boned sire bred to a dainty small boned dam.
 
Thank you for your reply. :) I wasnt to sure, I have time to think.
I was thinking of putting her to something that was fine anyway as i dont want some heavy ish. Also i dont think I would look right anyway thanks also :)
 
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tasteofchaos said:
They advise no more than a hand either way, so you wouldn't want something more than 15.3. So yes, too big.
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Thats the text book answer, but if your 14.3 had small withers it could be quite big for a 14.3, and if the stallion had a big wither it could be a small 16.1 - if you see what I mean, so they may actually be about a hand in difference anyway. If the 14.3 had big withers and the stallion didn't they could also be nearer two hand in difference..

I'm no expert, but when I sent my mare to stud I wasn't sure which stallion I wanted, so I took pictures and videos of my mare to the stud with the two stallions that I was stuck between, and the owner advised me on which would be best for my mare's conformation..

You'd probably get better answers if you posted this on the breeding forum page - there are more breeding experienced people on there, including the odd vet..
 
I do know of 2 15.2hh's that produced a 16.3hh, good quality animals with registered breeding so heights were known along the lineage...genetics can be strange
 
Yes that does make sense strangely.
I will just have to wait and compare the stallions and have the people at the stud, suggest which would be better for conformation. They are the people that know more at the end of the day.
Thank you :)
 
I have a tiny mare who is just a touch over 15hh. She's beautiful, petite, dainty and very feminine in all respects. I bred her to a 17hh Hanoverian stallion and she foaled down no problems however this foal will probably only mature out at 15.3hh so that's another consideration if you were hoping to breed big it doesn't always work like you think it might. The mare's foal is sweet and nice looking but he doesn't resemble his mother (who incidentally is the foal in my avatar) in any way, shape or form.
 
I put my 15.3 wb mare to a 17.2 Luso stallion. She took first time, had a normal pregnancy and foaled successfully with no issues. She was a maiden mare too.
 
I went to a vets talk on breeding early this year....it was quite in depth. The vet who was doing the talk told us that a horse was the only animal where the foal would not grow too big for the mare, under any circumstances. So unlike cows, where if you put a massive bull to a dainty little Jersey you will invariably get problems, the same doesn't ever happen in horses....I didn't know that before I went to this lecture!
 
My yard manager tried to breed a foal 2 years ago using AI. They couldn't get the stallion she'd chosen to 'produce' for the AI so the breeder sent her some from another stallion that was bigger than the original choice but said it would be fine. Sadly the foals shoulders were too big and it got stuck, they lost the foal and only just saved the mare so I think you do really need to think about size as you are doing.
 
Holly Hocks said:
I went to a vets talk on breeding early this year....it was quite in depth. The vet who was doing the talk told us that a horse was the only animal where the foal would not grow too big for the mare, under any circumstances. So unlike cows, where if you put a massive bull to a dainty little Jersey you will invariably get problems, the same doesn't ever happen in horses....I didn't know that before I went to this lecture!
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Ah it's not quite as you've written it :) Foals will only grow to the size of the uterus of the mare that's true however when breeding a small mare to a large stallion you should try to keep body types similar. Putting a chunky stallion to a small framed mare can go horribly wrong at foaling time. The foal will be fine while in the uterus, it's when it tries to come out that there can be trouble. You need to assess your mares pelvic area as this is where larger foals can often get stuck. The mare I spoke of, although very dainty does have good childbearing pelvic region so her chunky monster baby slipped out a treat.
 
Spring Feather said:
Ah it's not quite as you've written it :) Foals will only grow to the size of the uterus of the mare that's true however when breeding a small mare to a large stallion you should try to keep body types similar. Putting a chunky stallion to a small framed mare can go horribly wrong at foaling time. The foal will be fine while in the uterus, it's when it tries to come out that there can be trouble. You need to assess your mares pelvic area as this is where larger foals can often get stuck. The mare I spoke of, although very dainty does have good childbearing pelvic region so her chunky monster baby slipped out a treat.
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Oh thank you SF - that makes sense to me now....
 
Holly Hocks said:
I went to a vets talk on breeding early this year....it was quite in depth. The vet who was doing the talk told us that a horse was the only animal where the foal would not grow too big for the mare, under any circumstances.
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Sorry - but that vet was talking absolute bo**ocks!! Foals get too big to be born safely every year - and DIE every year - because they are too big for the mare to deliver! That is a FACT! Talk to any breeder who has been breeding a reasonable number each year for more than 5 minutes - we've all had at least one!

Mine was last year - with a maiden mare. She was 17hh, the stallion was 16.3 - the foal was HUGE. By the time the head was out the mare was exhausted, the foal was already dead - and it took me another 40 minutes to carefully draw it out (to minimise more damage to the mare!)

Two years before, another VERY big foal (stuck at shoulders, then at hips and took an hour to get out) caused the mare to bleed into the broad ligament - she nearly died! Ask any vet who does a lot of studwork what is the most common foaling disaster he sees: he will tell you the foal was too big - sometimes resulting in mispresentations such as a front leg back - or just a slow delivery which causes the foal to die during labour!

It is true that the foal is unlikely to get too big for the mare's uterus to accomodate it - you rarely see prolapses in mares before foaling as you do with sheep! The size of the uterus does limit the foals's growth to a degree. But the uterus can't measure the pelvic width - and the pelvis is where foals get stuck and die!!!

The problem is more often feeding than difference in size of stallions - though a BIG ID on, say, a sprint type TB mare - is risky because the foal's shoulders will be wide. Some mares put everything THEY eat into the foal - some just get fatter themselves! I have one old girl who loses a lot of weight in the run-up to foaling - but I don't DARE up her feed as I wouldn't get the foal out. Yet one of her daughters - very similar in type - is always as fat as a pig when she foals, and always has tiny, dainty little foals (which then grow like stink!)
 
JanetGeorge - the general concensus world wide is that the mare will determine the size of the foal in utero. There will always be times when there is a problem, mares and foals die. That's breeding for you. There is also a strong belief that foals born later in the year are more likely to have birthing problems. Seen this happen quite a few times now.

To the OP - is there a real reason for breeding from a Standerdbred mare? Are you planning to race the mare? One thing you need to remember when breeding from a standerdbred is that many of their foals will get up and pace naturally from birth. If they pace they have limited value as a riding horse, so on selling will probebly not cover the costs you have incured raising the foal.

There are also many horses that are seeking homes - more horses than homes - this is happening world wide.

Other things to consider is to breed blood over bone, so use a mare that is of good strong quality and use a stallion with a lighter build and more quality.
 
JAnet George - they rarely get it wrong! Occaisionally there are problems, I've rarely had problems with mares foaling despite hundreds being born at the stud each year.

My own mare had a big foal last time and foaled with no problem at all.
 
JanetGeorge said:
Sorry - but that vet was talking absolute bo**ocks!! Foals get too big to be born safely every year - and DIE every year - because they are too big for the mare to deliver! That is a FACT! Talk to any breeder who has been breeding a reasonable number each year for more than 5 minutes - we've all had at least one!

Mine was last year - with a maiden mare. She was 17hh, the stallion was 16.3 - the foal was HUGE. By the time the head was out the mare was exhausted, the foal was already dead - and it took me another 40 minutes to carefully draw it out (to minimise more damage to the mare!)

Two years before, another VERY big foal (stuck at shoulders, then at hips and took an hour to get out) caused the mare to bleed into the broad ligament - she nearly died! Ask any vet who does a lot of studwork what is the most common foaling disaster he sees: he will tell you the foal was too big - sometimes resulting in mispresentations such as a front leg back - or just a slow delivery which causes the foal to die during labour!

It is true that the foal is unlikely to get too big for the mare's uterus to accomodate it - you rarely see prolapses in mares before foaling as you do with sheep! The size of the uterus does limit the foals's growth to a degree. But the uterus can't measure the pelvic width - and the pelvis is where foals get stuck and die!!!

The problem is more often feeding than difference in size of stallions - though a BIG ID on, say, a sprint type TB mare - is risky because the foal's shoulders will be wide. Some mares put everything THEY eat into the foal - some just get fatter themselves! I have one old girl who loses a lot of weight in the run-up to foaling - but I don't DARE up her feed as I wouldn't get the foal out. Yet one of her daughters - very similar in type - is always as fat as a pig when she foals, and always has tiny, dainty little foals (which then grow like stink!)
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^^ this

we've also found that sires with huge shoulders often pass this down to the foal, and that can serious cause issues too- there is at least one ID that my mum won't use with her TB or TBx mares, purely because the foals he throws are too big for the mares, and cause horrendous foalings.

He was fab with our mainly ID mare though- obv she could accomodate him ;)

and of course a mare will never have a foal too big for her to carry!!! its getting the blooming things out which is the issue!!!
 
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there is no right or wrong when breeding like every animal/human that can give birth some babies are little some are big some births are easy others not, you can not judge the foal/birth till the mare has done it.

Ive heard (but true as i trust the ppl) of a little children pony believe around 12hh that was in a field with some heavy horses think cyde x cob's (guessing colts), the little mare was sold etc.. few months on the owners thought she was just a fatty one morning a foal was there.

I also know a welsh sec a that THROWS herself at big horses (gelding or not) and will turn down something more her size, as funny as it is to watch, yet you would of thought nature would play more of a part in what a mare would deem suitable, if breeding with larger horse could/does kill.
 
I thought the dam's uterus size had a role to play in height? They've certainly found that embryo transferring from a 17hh mare put to a same sized stallion leads to short offspring (~16hh) when carried to term by eg a 15.2hh mare. So if you're breeding with a stallion that much bigger to increase height, it may not have as strong effects as you think. Conplementary confirmation combined with type desired are the most important considerations I would have thought.
 
I may be wrong but I was taught that the foal would only grow to the size the mare could carry, but the only risk would be if the mare was quite fine in build and struggled in the foaling process. Some more important considerations when making the choice is what am I trying to create? What conformation would compliment my mare? What happens if the foal remains the mare's size would I still keep the foal? Why am I trying to breed? Could I buy 'off the shelf' what I am looking for.

If the Stallion answers the questions in all other respects I would ask about previous foals he has sired to see what he produces, and again if this still ticks all my boxes then I would ask the advice of the stud.

Its a tough one because ultimately you dont want to breed for the sake of it so staying with something under 15.2 if its not what you're after is a waste but also if this risk to a maiden is too great then again its a waste....
 
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I bred my 14hh maiden mare to a 16.2 stallion last year. I was worried about it but sent the mare to twemlows and they are v experianced and didn't think there would be a problem. She produced a small foal who I'm hoping will catch up later as I want a 15hh to keep.
 
I am not a breeder. My knowledge is limited to when I researched basic info myself as was seriously comtemplating from a graded and totally proven mare (who had already foaled).

However, while people are not completely agreeing about size of stallion etc - why on earth would you even contemplate risking it? If your mare is a maiden and you don't know what she would throw then even more reason why you should play safe.

My mare was a very big foal - mum was a 15 hh irish cob type, Dad 16.2 TB. Mare ended up m/w 16.3 (I tracked down her breeders). She was put to Di Maggio before I bought her and threw a very large colt as well.

I ended up not doing it. One - for all the financial reasons ( I did look into it very carefully and took all the long term as well as short term costs into consideration). Two - because I know someone who does breed, knows her stuff and have therefore seen the heartache when it goes wrong (and it can - easily). Therefore, IMO, my risks outweighed the chances of my mare throwing a foal I would like and could do the job I wanted for it and she is too precious to me to risk.
 
Yes, because you will end up with a horse with either a poor conformation or issues caused by this, big front ends and weak small back ends, narrow chests, short legs, for example, obviously breeding from a well put together dam and sire half if it but they need to be be similar in type and height to breed a good quality foal, you should always breed to improve on what you've got to start with.

My horse is a good example of what you get by using a large sire to a small mare, as much as I love him he has his faults which are no doubt related to this.
 
My 14.3hh mare went to a 16.2hh stallion. All was discussed with my equine vet and other professionals in the field, an none cautioned against it.

I've known a few mares go to much larger stallions with no problems.
 
Evelyn said:
JAnet George - they rarely get it wrong! Occaisionally there are problems, I've rarely had problems with mares foaling despite hundreds being born at the stud each year.

My own mare had a big foal last time and foaled with no problem at all.
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Depends on the breed to a large degree. If 'hundreds' are being born at the stud you presumably work at, then I would guess they're TBs - and very few TB studs have 'hundreds' a year! If they are NOT TBs, then I would wonder what the hell they're doing breeding 'hundreds' each year!

TBs to TBs are less likely to have problems, I'd guess, because the mares are put to stallions that are VERY similar in type and with a long enough pedigree to rule out odd throwbacks. But talk to any vet who does a LOT of foaling - they will tell you that the bulk of the calls they get to assist at foalings are due to - guess what - the foal being too big!!

I don't know the statistics - whether it's 1 in a 100 - or 2 in a 100 - or 5 in a hundred that 'get it wrong' Those percentages are all pretty small - unless it's YOUR much loved mare and eagerly awaited foal!!!
 
Not about to but I'm fascinated by this and I'm really learning stuff that I didn't know.

So, what would you put to a 15hh TB mare, nice quality and actually not so fine although an ex - sprinter. Would you aim to breed something that would make 15.2hh max and if so what size stallion would you look at? What breed of stallion - something with a bit more bone? Just interested - and learning!
 
Hmm so what would you say about this a 16hh kwpn mare put to 17hh clydesdale stallion which generally throws small foals..?? this would be her first foal.. It's not me breeding, I zero experience on that front and have no intention on doing so either. I'm just asking as a friends away to breed that
 
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