Do you think 'twitching' should be banned...

[the watcher]

No, I don't think it should be banned. And I am not sure that it really inflicts pain either (if done properly), but does induce horses into a trance-like state so that quick fiddly jobs can be done without sedation. I have ear twitched in the past too, although this would not be my first choice.

 

[Theresa_F]

I will twitch as a last resort for my safety.

I prefer to try a hand twitch on a fold of skin on the neck if it works, if not, then a soft wide rope on the nose with a piece of broom handle. I have never had a cut nose or side effects from doing it.

I would not want it banned as a twitch in the right hands can prevent potential injury to both handler and horse.

I also try to work round the need for a twitch, ie for clipping if possible.

 

[Enfys]

How on earth would a ban like that be policed I wonder? I mean, you can ban the sale of the metal ones but so many people (myself included) have rope/twine and broom handle ones, who would know.

I will use a twitch if necessary,they can be a useful tool, and if it makes a potentially dangerous situation safer for a few minutes and is used by someone with some common sense then I don't have a problem with it. I've never used a metal humane twitch so couldn't comment on those, and I wouldn't allow anyone to ear twitch either. A Austrian student vet tried that on my head shy pony (I told him not to but he ignored me) before I could say anything else he was thrown across the stable and stomped on for good measure. My old arab mare used to practically fall over when it was used on her nose (treatment on a long standing and painful leg injury) we'd have to hold her head up. It seems to work differently on some horses, another arab I had would go beserk and the same twitch was applied in exactly the same way.

 

[Beanyowner]

I was once told by a vet that the horses tip of the muzzle is only fiberous tissue...I was quite shocked by this as I also assumed there were many nerve endings there due to the way in which a horse grazes for its food. Please feel free to correct me if this is untrue as I would actually really like to know...*runs off to find books, websites etc*

I don't think twitching should be banned...I think it has a place in horse management as long as the user can correctly establish when a twitch is required and not just throw it on for any reason. I used to twitch Benson to get his front legs clipped when he was a baby as he used to attempt to kick me in the head...I think it tickled!! He has now got used to the sensation and I only actually had to twitch him on 2 occaisions before he got used to it....a lesson learnt for Beany!

 

[S_L_J]

I haven't read all the replies, so I apologise if I'm repeating what somebody has already said.

I'd much rather twitch and get whatever I was doing over quickly, easily and safely. Which IMO causes far less stress to the horse than let the situation spiral out of control with a horse that gets more and more worked up and potentially dangerous for horse and handler.

Twitching wouldn't be my first port of call re: restraints, but have no qualms about it when necessary.

Sophie x x x

 

[Gentle_Warrior]

I use a twitch when clipping or trying to do anything with is head that he is not in the mood for. As long as the part of the lip in the twitch does not go cold then there is no harm to it. Surely it's better than sedation each time

 

[puddicat]

really want to know how sensitive a horse's nose is now. Will try to find somebody to ask who might have a good answer and report back...

 

[Beanyowner]

Well my friends horse managed to gouge a chunk out of the end of his muzzle and the vet stitched it back up without ANY anesthetic (sp?) and the horse is question was perfectly oblivious to the experience! That was the same vet that said it was just fibrous tissue.

 

[puddicat]

hmmm even more intrested now..... will PM you!

 

[mitchellk]

It certainly has its place, to be used by the experienced only. Most definatly shouldn't be banned, have used many times in instances where there is a risk to handler or horse particularly when clipping is involved.

 

[samsaccount]

Not at all!
A yard I was on for college had 60 horses and a number of them needed to be twitched for a number of things; mane pulling/clipping/etc. How much do you think their vets bill would come to if they had to call the vet out to have horses sedated so often?!
As long as it is not applied too tightly then I don't think there is a problem with it. After all it is a quick, easy and effective restraint to ensure the animal and handler does not become injured.

 

[Bert&Maud]

I don't think that endorphins are released as a response to pain, just ask an acupuncturist.

 

[S_N]

Absolutely fascinating post!

I have such mixed views about this subject. I think that twitching has it's place in good horse management, used by people who are experienced in twitching, or people under the supervision of those who are knowledgable! I do think that twitching is over used though!! If I had a penny for the amount of times I have heard "Oh just whack a twitch on it", believe me I would not be searching for livery in the area I am moving too, but buying my own place with land!!

I remember when I was doing my final year, reading a research paper (which I hope I still have somewhere in the loft amongst all my uni stuff) about the affects of twitching a horse and the areas commonly used - nose, neck, ear and tail - and I remember the feeling of nausea I had when I finished reading it. It claimed that the release of endorphins was negligible and a good long word to use to convince people that it was OK to twitch, as endorphins (if people know what they are) are generally thought to be 'feel good' hormones. It stated that this was not, in fact, the case at all! That the frezzing of a twitched horse, was very similar (if not the same) to the reaction of a horse (a prey species) to being caught by a predator - that the areas used for twitching (mentioned above), are all areas where in the wild, large predators attack! And if you think about it, how many times have we seen lions gripping zebras by the end of the nose? They tend to give up fairly quickly at this point - no? Also it went on to say how many horses are OK to twitch initially, but after a few minutes FREAK!!! Again, it said this goes back to the predator thing and the horse realising that actually it's NOT gonna die, it can still breath, it's on it's feet and it's gonna fight! (Back to told adage of the 3 'F's - Fright, Flight, Fight). A lot people just say - "Oh you can't twitch so an' so, he/she reacts badly to the twitch" Not entirely sure that I blame old so an' so tbth.

If this post has made sense, the it's a miracle, I have just got back from an exhaustive and hideous journey (9hrs driving in gales and monsoon like rain). I just thought that I'd tell what I could remember of this research paper, as whilst it may seem a little far fetched, it does kinda ring true....... well to me anyways.

 

[lisaward]

i have a mare that is absolutly petrified of being shod/trimmed she had her back out which caused the pain and this stuck in her memory(before i had her)
my farrier can't even pick her foot up but i can,we tried a twitch just for a trial last time and she fell asleep and had all 4 done with me taking it off gradually on the last foot so she could see it wasn't hurting and she was fine .
this is the route i am going down with the hope that eventually i can stop the twitch.
but it has helped me.

 

[jayvee]

Oh I am on the fence on this one emotionally. But I do put my hands up fully to using one and correctly! My mare is a sod for clipping around the head and neck, so for that I have always twitched. Yet she never really settles with that! (and is the only horse I've known never too).
I hate using it but my life also depends on it! Latest clip the other day was just immpossible! Now either I am getting soft or my mare is getting worse as she is over riding the twitch!! To the point I'd rather sedation than see her get soo upset.
I do believe it has a place obviously in the right hands. And can be very effective just for a momentary and nessecary situation.

 

[pinknpurplepony]

No....and why???
We twitch my boy because when we tried to clip my pony in the stable he lashed out really quickly and we could have been hurt had anyone been near his back legs and he jumped around a lot.
Since we twitched him outside with the broom one- the humane one didn't work- he's been an angel.
Everytime we clip he's better and better and under his twitched state seems to have accepted the clippers
Only yesterday we dried him in his stable with a hairdryer-he loved it because of the gentle heat!!!
One thing I would say would be that he didn't used to like the stable so why we tried to clip him in there I do not know!

 

[puddicat]

Quote: I don't think that endorphins are released as a response to pain, just ask an acupuncturist.

What would be the point in that

!!! People that do acupuncture aren't well known for their scientific knowledge.

I need to check about the mechanism for endorphin release, I think its a bit more complicated that just pain but will report back...

 

[puddicat]

quote: If this post has made sense, the it's a miracle

Yes it makes sense to me, its along the lines of what I've read.

I think I asked the wrong question in the post. I think what I should of asked was if *IF* it can be shown to be cruel, THEN do you still feel it's worth doing.

If you assume it isn't causing the horse extreme discomfort then there's not an issue as far as I can see. But if it is, then it raises a moral question and it's that question I'm interested in.

The probelm is, it seems most people think that it doesn't cause the horse extreme discomfort in which case the choice is easy. Unfortunately I didn't do my homework well enough so I need to find out whether it can be said categorically that it does cause the horse extreme disconfortout and then report back.

Even though, if you think about what it is you're actually doing when you twitch a horse you must conclude you are causing it pain by analogy to yourself, most people who replied did't think that. Psychologically we assess pain in others by their behavioural response so what is interesting to me is whether we are being fooled into the wrong conclusion by an animal that has a different pain response which in our language means no significant pain is present. Like I said stupid puddicat forgot to look up the evidence for the physiological effects of twitching before posting the question. Doh

 

[vicijp]

Before we ban twitches can we also ban Vetrap and Animalintex? Both cause a lot more damage than any twitch could, in the hands of a muppet.

 

[TinselRider]

[ QUOTE ]
Before we ban twitches can we also ban Vetrap and Animalintex? Both cause a lot more damage than any twitch could, in the hands of a muppet.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree with that quote....have seen the damage done by badly applied vetwrap

 

[puddicat]

But anything to do with horses is dangerous in the hands of a muppet! You'd have to ban forks, haynets, lunge cavessons, sugar beet pellets, NZ rugs... any form of bandaging, loading and that's only the stuff I've seen used to do real damage.

Lets face it, if you're a muppet you're forever walking the tightrope between stable management and inflicting serious injury and its just pot luck whether you and the horse make it to the end of the learning curve

 

[jayvee]

The twitch triggers off the natural response to prey capture. Meaning caught by large cats for example.
A lion would suffocate it's prey to death by muzzling the preys nose/nostrils. Once the lion has 'hold' the horse will eventually but quickly 'give up' yet remain alive (for a while longer). This is the endorphins kicking in as a natural pain killer!!
Applying the twitch to the upper lip is pretty much getting the same response of pain = I give up! And you can see the horses eyes glaze over and body goes torpid. Of course they wont die being twitched, it is simply triggering off the instinctive reaction that is associated with pain and pain only.

 

[Irishcobs]

I've not seen a lion muzzle its prey, only going for the windpipe and crushing it.

 

[S_N]

[ QUOTE ]
I've not seen a lion muzzle its prey, only going for the windpipe and crushing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lioness' as we know hunt in their pride group, and often one will be going got the wither/back, or a swipe at the quarters (if they are brave enough to try to avoid the back heels) and one may well go for the jugular or the end of the nose, to smother.

 

[wizzi901]

blimey I'd be dead and so would our farrier if twitching was banned! We have to twitch fred for farrier and clipping!

I hope in time he will chill out with the farrier but I am not prepared to fill him full of chemicals for the farrier every 6 weeks. He has obviously been used to it as knows when its coming, but until he learns to stand still and stop his back legs flying here there and everywhere (and I can guarantee it is not through fear or pain! - he just likes to pratt about sometimes, and argue!!), twitch will be used. Far safer, as long as you know what you are doing, they can still "come out" of twitch trance very easily and boy, you want to watch those front legs!!

 

[chestnut cob]

It works in some circumstances but my horse only has to see a twitch and he goes beserk. The first time I clipped him (hadn't had him long), we tried to twitch him but he was more bothered by the twitch than the clippers. Found it much easier under those circumstances to sedate instead.

I've known farriers who have said they'd rather shoe under mild sedation than a twitch...

Definitely not a method I'd choose for my horse because he reacts so violently to it, but I don't have a problem with it provided you're careful.

 

[SouthWestWhippet]

[ QUOTE ]
Gripping PF's upper lip in one hand has always made her doze off (or at least look all sleepy) almost instantaneously

[/ QUOTE ]

My horse is the same. I have to twitch her to pull her mane or she tramples all over me but if I get a friend to hold her nose firmly she calms right down. I prefer this to using a traditional twitch because you can let go and take hold really easily (if you have an understanding friend!) and you don't have to keep taking the rope on and off.

 

[Vicki1986]

Our yard one is a rope on a stick traditional type. i might buy my own 'humane' one soon maybe.
i have to twitch willow to clip her ears. she chills right out and therefore, no accidents and no sedalin/acp neccessary which IMO is better.
I may have to twitch her this evenings to clean and dress a wound...i dont like twitching it makes me feel bad but in this case its for her own good...she wont let me near her leg without twitching her. its only for 10 minutes or so and shes fine after so no i dont think its cruel. when you start to twitch her she doesnt even pull back so i dont think she minds too much either. she must like the rush of hormones!!

 

[glenruby]

Im a great advocater of the tinkers pinch to be honest, as in most cases where a horse is a little uneasy as opposed to downright dangerous, aggressive or upset it seems to encourage the horse to stand withour terrifying him/her.
Sedation should always be a last resort. Horses always appear very uncomfortable when they are in that groggy state between sedation and conciousness unlike the 30seconds or so following removal of the twitch. Seems a lot of discomfort for what may be 5 minutes trimming not to mention the expense and hassle.

Also, if twitching were to be banned, what would be advised to replace it when scoping a fit and as tbs often are - headshy racehorse?? Most of this country's top racing vets use a twitch on any racehorse they scope as a general rule, unless the horse objects to its use. They dont check to see if the horse will scope without this restraint, it isnt worth the risk to their health. Everyone has a right to use all reasonable methods to ensure their safety at work, as it is enough people are killed in the agriculture sector each year and if suitable methods of restraint arent applied this figure would be sure to increase.

The average appy hacker or riding club mount may be handled easily enough without the need for a twicth, but unfortunately this type of horse is not predominant in the horse world and many well fed and fit hunters, eventer and racehorses require stronger restraint than just a headcollar to do anything irregular to them.

I personally like the oldfashioned balin' twine and 12"wavin pipe variety. My old jumping opny only ever required the use of this once - I always clipped her loose in her stabe - minus headcollar! However, she ripped her eyelid up the middle some years ago and required stitches. Despite heavy sedationa dn being held down by 2 male vets she still jerked around a lot and onse the twitch was applied she became muc more relaxd -hough we still had a bit of a problem with the uncontrollable reaction of blinking!
Also during the summer we had 40 odd yearling thoroughbreds in the yard and for any specialist treatment, a twicth was applied for practitioner safety. Is grand enough to put your own safety in question but thoroughly unacceptable to expect your vet or physio, farrier etc to do so if your horse is unpredictable.

One other method of restraint whose use is perhaps more questionable is the lip chain - when shoeing the colts and stallions in the states, this was common practice, and I have been shown correctly how to do it. It is certainly effective but if used by a novice or inexperienced or even just by a rough handler can cause untold damage. Any thoughts on this method?