Do your worst - CC on difficult mare jumping

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tigers_eye

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Ok, some days I think I'm getting somewhere with her, some days I don't. I have stopped hacking her by myself as she is too dangerous I feel (I have to get on in the woods, hack past the Brussels ring road and up the side of it to get to the arena where I train), so just hacking in company and attempting to address the huuuge reactions she has when she feels "forced" to do something. I have spent the last 10 days really fussing over her at the yard too, more than I normally would, trying to bond more with her, and I am getting very fond of her as a person. The rears and SHAN'Ts in this video are not too bad compared to hacking, then she tips her nose above her ears once she's reared and spun and just runs straight through the bridle with little apparent sense of self-preservation. I have wondered about a standing martingale, although have never actually used one. She's already jumped round a bit, we'd just added the filler under the oxer. Anyway, shall quit wittering, here's the vid (the stop at the end, at the double, she jumped the next time fine, as seen on 2nd vid): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FarS7kVnaAo&list=UUJAZgCaay5Ib8iPqNFMTOOw&index=2&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQhopDZhdw0&list=UUJAZgCaay5Ib8iPqNFMTOOw&index=1&feature=plcp
 
Gosh, she's very tricky isn't she? She just looks like she's sticking a big two fingers up at you so maybe that will calm down the more she does..
 
I would defiantly strongly consider the martingale and also a flash as she appears to be invading and mouthing the bit alot which is interfering with her concentration.

I would also say that when she rears, don't turn her in a large circle (it dis-engages her and lets her get away from you), instead halt her where she is and make her do it from there and don't let her past the fence. Or turn her in a tight, small circle and give her a little tap on the shoulder to remind her that you are in charge.

You also look a little tense which is understandable but try to loosen up and let her have a bit of rein, the same when in jumping position, remember to release a little more.

Overall I think you handle her really well and calmly :)

She does however have a fab scopey jump when she is together and not dis-engaged and also has lovely paces and a lovely contact :) Have you tried considering her more suited to Dressage??

One question, how old is she??
 
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Cripes. Umm, well, firstly, very very well managed. You stayed lovely and cool and calm and I THINK that is going to be the solution... she had her first disobedience THEN panicked, so it looks to me as if she's expecting someone to really get after her...?
i'd hack out in a medium-tight elastic standing martingale, and jump in the same thing loose, just for a bit. it surprises them (in a good way imho) because they expect it to pull on their mouth but it doesn't, it's just a very honest pull on their nose... which i find they go 'oh, okay, fair enough' to. i much prefer the standing to the running in that respect...
has she been ridden in a running martingale previously? cos when she starts jibbing she looks as if she's expecting to be socked in the chops a bit, either because of martingale pulling reins down as she inverts, or rider's hands... (not by you obv, looks like memories surfacing...)
she's got oodles of pop, just needs to trust you more and not overreact. i noticed that when she hit the little upright she got stroppy/tense then too, either from hitting fence or because she expected to get told off? can't tell.
worth the effort i'd say.
just 1 thing. when David O'Connor gave his lecture at Hartpury this spring, he said that when training he ALWAYS gets horse to jump last part of any combination first, so it never gets a surprise. i wonder if you could do that for a bit with her, even to teensy fences, so she never gets that 'information overload' facing 2 or 3 'new' fences, never has an excuse/reason to go "OMG there's TWO new fences I just can't COPE!!!" which is a bit what it looks like at the moment...
 
she doesnt seem very happy with all the flat work or the jumping, could you stop jumping and just concentrate on getting her listening with the flatwork a little better:)?
 
I have serious position envy, I wish I had your lower leg over a fence! Your ride her very well.
A couple of questions... does she have any physical problems? They way she evades and jumps makes me think back, though she seems better with some fences rather than others. Would also be worth checking her eyes? Or was she napping to or from something?
Another thing, to me she looks like the type if tied in with a martingale or flash might fight against it or panic which would mean you would be worst off if she went over or something. However, you know her, so you will know when she is having a tantrum whether she gives you the 'unexploded' bomb feeling.

I would go down the physical route, as its not your riding or the fences causing the problem.
Is she willing to work in general? Is she very resistant to work onthe flat? How is she to girth up? What is she like in new places?
 
She probably is better suited to dressage, but as you say has a fab jump and actually I find poles in general make her think forward rather than backwards towards me (most of the time!). Up until today I had been riding her in a "double bridle" of a sidepull (nose and poll pressure), and a normal bit. For the last week I've just knotted the set of reins to the sidepull and left them on her neck, so thought today, in an enclosed space, was a good day to try a proper bridle. She's 7, has broken a few noses, had wolf teeth issues (I'm assured they've been fixed but going to get my dentist to check when he's next over here just to be sure), has been allowed to intimidate some riders, then been bashed about a bit I think for rearing.... Not the best start!
 
Very beautiful and looks very talented but super sensitive. You are a first class rider so you'll defo get there and she looks worth perseveringly with. The first time time she stopped, did she get an inadvertent jab in the chops? It looked like she did and then got a bit hysterical and over the top about it. She looks like she really responds to a pat and a stroke to calm her down, rather than a smack. Looks like she'd go supersonic if you got after her!
 
I've seen a few vids of her now, and in every one there is something about her hind leg action/shape over a fence that doesn't look quite right, but I can't put my finger on what. I didn't say anything because you and the people you're with know more than me!
 
She looked like she was enjoying herself at the start, shaking her head after the fences etc, then she shocked herself with the spread and seemed to lose the ability to think straight for a bit. I think you need to ignore her and keep going and hopefully she'll forget about whats gone on in the past.
 
I know far far less than you, but she looks unhappy in the mouth so would it be worth trying her in a hackamore and seeing how she goes in that? Just an idea.
Oh and majorly envious of your position and patience, she's really not an easy ride is she!
 
Wow she really is a striking looking mare! Very impressive to watch but obviously super hot!!

Obviously we are only seeing little snippets but are all/most of the handstands and cartwheels on the left rein?
 
Beautiful mare and fantastic riding!
My only comment is that she looks very sensitive to the spur - how is she if you ride without? :)
 
tigers_eye said:
Here's a video of her the last time she was in arena, 10 days ago or so, in the "double bridle" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdmzLKqBHCc&list=UUJAZgCaay5Ib8iPqNFMTOOw&index=5&feature=plcp
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she looked happier in that vid.
hmm, the wolf teeth issue makes perfect sense. i wouldn't be surprised if she still had splinters in there... worth getting jaw x-rayed both sides? would the owner pay for this?
does she ever gasp or hold her breath, esp when cantering? i had a mare in who did this who had splinters in/on the bars of her mouth... she was hysterical about a contact. :( :(
 
archiepoo said:
she doesnt seem very happy with all the flat work or the jumping, could you stop jumping and just concentrate on getting her listening with the flatwork a little better:)?
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Good point.

Very nice horse and you ride her well. If she were mine I would concentrate on the flat work, cantering squares and teaching shoulder in etc, so I could have more influence over the direction she travels between fences.

You jump a lot of fences in your videos. Could be an idea to reduce the number of jumping efforts in each session so the mare can relax and learn that jumping is fun.

When she is more rideable between fences and is a little more relaxed she should progress well.

Standing martingale is a good plan. Not too tight.
 
For what it's worth, I thought it was a good session, in that you dealt with everything quietly, didn't panic, didn't make anything worse, and got what you wanted out of it after just a couple of tries. With a jump like that, I'd keep going!

My daughter's mare will do that head shaking bit when stressed , I had teeth etc checked, and now think it's just her way of saying "I can't do this, you know I can't do this, don't make me, I can't, shan't, won't. Oh, actually, I think I can after all..." Mine is better in a running martingale than none at all, although not tried standing so can't comment on that.

Horses, and especially mares, always do the same thing twice, so when she took a dislike to the weird filler (weird for here, maybe not weird for Belgium?) and had a paddy, I would have expected her to do exactly the same the second time - which she did. So next time that happens, I'd get the helper to drop it or change it after the first time, or show it to her first until she is more confident with new things.

Agree with the idea of jumping the second/last part of a combination first on a young horse, then come round and jump the whole thing, it does help. She had the jump down though just before - perhaps stopping at the double was more of a left-over from clonking herself over the previous fence?

Otherwise, well done. When you have her sorted, I will be interested :) Just joking, got a tricky enough mare as it is, don't need another! What's her breeding btw?

ps just thought I should add I haven't seen any other vids so this is just a comment on what I saw today, might be out of context to previous videos.
 
I don't usually ride her with spurs, only to school, I feel I can get more out of them than a whip, although I carry a schooling whip with her just to help channel her. Re the hackamore, see posts about the double bridle arrangement. And she can't have it both ways ;), if she wants to be a dressage horse she needs to accept a bridle! I actually think poll pressure is more of a trigger for her than mouth. In the flatwork video although she felt quite nice she did feel she was ducking behind the contact and not using her back more than today. She has spectacular leg action that means she still looks pretty even when she's not working properly.
 
She looks very easy to startle. After she refused the first jump she really seemed to panic.

Then when she knocked down the one after, she started throwing her head around and looked very uncomfortable, like she was expecting to be punished, almost?

Nothing constructive, just an observation! What's her history like?

Hope you get it sorted soon :)
 
tigers_eye said:
I don't usually ride her with spurs, only to school, I feel I can get more out of them than a whip, although I carry a schooling whip with her just to help channel her. Re the hackamore, see posts about the double bridle arrangement. And she can't have it both ways ;), if she wants to be a dressage horse she needs to accept a bridle! I actually think poll pressure is more of a trigger for her than mouth. In the flatwork video although she felt quite nice she did feel she was ducking behind the contact and not using her back more than today. She has spectacular leg action that means she still looks pretty even when she's not working properly.
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Watched the flat video and think it may be a good idea to slow the whole thing down. As you say, she has spectacular leg action; she may find it easier to balance if you steady up. The mouth should improve when she is in true balance and then her brain may settle (assuming she has no pysical problems).
 
Could be worth trying a Micklem bridle to help with the contact issues. I have seen very good results with a few sensitive mouthed horses. The horses seem to show less over-reaction to the contact.
 
She seems to be just very tense and unsure about it all and needs lots of confidence building. On the jumping video she gets worried and then says 'I can't do it', I feel that less jumping would be far better with lots of praise when she's jumped well. She's definately not happy in her mouth or it could be through the poll area as well, as in the flatwork video in the 'double' she is very overbent and just ducking behind the contact, not working through at all.
I would slow everything right down, building balance and confidence for her.

Over the fences she 'throws' herself over, this often indicates pain somewhere, hence after a few jumps she starts to refuse. You need to look at that.
 
I haven't watched the whole video and haven't seen any of your previous ones and you compete at a far higher level than I have ever done but just wondered if after she had run out the first time if it would be a good idea to have dropped the poles from that fence and made her go straight through across from a trot or even a walk and then rebuild the fence so that she got the idea of going forward between the wings rather than running out several times.

I have serious school envy. Have recently moved from a yard with a decent sized school to a fairly small school (but otherwise lovely yard) and am highly envious of all the lovely arenas we see on here - want one!
 
Does look like a confidence issue, it could have started due to her mouth problems or there could be an issue somewhere that needs sorting out. After taking out the pain possibility I think she needs grids grids and more grids that are small and easy for her. Then have tiny fences with things on the floor under them so that when she gets to see fillers she does not have a meltdown moment. My computer is not good for watching videos and keeps stopping and starting but it looked like she said no way when she saw the little filler was under the fence and behind the front bar and again when there were 2 fences to look at both things have had exactly the same effect on one that I used to ride so it was fillers fillers fillers until she did get confident over them, in fact if I had them in digital format I would sat we could have been sitting on twins as it was like watching myself again :D Ditto using a standing or fairly long martingale though as it will help a lot with the throwing head about tricks.
 
She's a right little stress head isn't she!

I think if I had her I would put all the jumps as very very small crosses until her confidence issues have been sorted. That way when she has a paddy about jumping something you can quietly turn her immediately in to the fence and walk over it.

I like how when she has her moments you ignore her, she looks like she's expecting a beating and almost zones out, once she realises she's not going to get one she's back to concentrating.

Ditto Kerrili said, X-ray would certainly clear up any concerns about her teeth. A loose, preferably elasticated standing martingale would be a fairly passive way of saying 'I would prefer it if your ears were not in my mouth' and I guess a lot of patience and keeping everything very easy for her until she's fully on side.

Good luck with her, I bet she'll be mega once she's sorted :)
 
I would say to check teeth again she looks as hysterical in the contact as mine did until his wolf teeth were done and within a year he needed his doing 3 times. I would also suggest a fulmer just to help as moves the pressure of the bit onto sides without the bit moving so much. I would persevere as looks worth it and just going slow as think she will come round.
 
Mine is like this. He wants to get to the fence but if he is unsure or slightly off the right stride he will do the exact same thing. He too then rears and leaps about like he is waiting for a smack. He Aldo chucks his head about like your mare and likes to get hysterical about the contact and makes a fuss if he makes a mistake. Tried loads if bits and martingales. He is best with no martingale, a happy mouth pelham and a curb chain with a rubber cover. This stops the contact hysteria! He also likes the rider to stay in a fairly light seat on landing. If ypy come back to quickly he rushes away from your seat. If he goes through a stop and rear phase I our the jump righr down. This way I can insist he goes forward and over them, even from walk if need be. He is nor allowed to
 
Go past or round them. I don't wear spurs on mine as he over reacts and I like to be able to kick him without the over reaction!
 
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