Docking

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the issue with docking adults, that the wound takes much longer to heal, if at all properly, dogs being dogs, which must be distressing for dogs and owners alike. I know of another member on here who had to keep going back and getting more off, stitches all the time, multiple vet trips and medication, and it was a terrible time (not a gundog/working dog).
 
SusieT said:
............ Save the rest of the dogs from the setback to their growth, health, risk of infection as pups and note which bitches produce dogs that can't hack working with full tails.........
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I've read some rubbish on this forum, and on this section SusieT, and whilst I have no wish to be unduly offensive, YOU have lifted stupidity to a new level. ;)

Explain to me, if you will, just where your level of expertise springs from, and qualify the points which you've made. Manage that, if you can, and I'll join you in reasoned discussion.

Alec.
 
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EAST KENT said:
Well having bred dogs for centuries I have docked dogs myself..quelle horreure. My way was to do it quietly when the puppies were suckling off mum,a quick snip a dab of pot permanganate to cauterise ..no one even stopped suckling,never mind squeak..and mum did`nt bother to look up either.Now,it is my believe that any trauma at all to her babies would have alerted mum..so ,maybe there was none?
Never has so much rubbish been spouted by the uninformed about this..same a hunting really..but then CPT is anti that as well.Hope she`s vegan.:D:D
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Another^^^This
 
A correctly docked tail (probably left slightly longer than normal) should heal normally as there is no reason for it not to. Unless there is an issue with the dogs healing.
yes seriously- what's the problem with noting whether there is a herditary component?
 
Setback to growth-it's well known that stress causes growth setback, at th eleast temporarily for all animals.
Infection-big risk with a wound. Esepcially young animals. Take fro example the navel..You spray it to prevent infection, one would do the same with a tail but there's no guarantee. Nevermind the 'interesting' instruments people use to dock animals with!
Calling it stupid just because you've always done it and you prefer to see e.g a rottweiler without a tail is well.... There is no reasonable way to explain amputation without analgesia in this modern day.
 
SusieT said:
A correctly docked tail (probably left slightly longer than normal) should heal normally as there is no reason for it not to. Unless there is an issue with the dogs healing.
yes seriously- what's the problem with noting whether there is a herditary component?
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An hereditary component for what?
 
CT - that first pic! Poor sod :(

It does show something though - I believe that the dogs flank is covered in blood because of the dogs tail movement. Obviously the fact that the dog appears wet will have contributed to some of the spread, but still!
 
SusieT said:
A correctly docked tail (probably left slightly longer than normal) should heal normally as there is no reason for it not to. Unless there is an issue with the dogs healing.
yes seriously- what's the problem with noting whether there is a herditary component?
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Para 1, so, you'd prefer that an adult dog went through the trauma of an op, than a pup at two days, would you? I wouldn't, because canine welfare actually matters to me, not the hypothesised drivel which spews from the minds of those who, how ever well meaning, are ignorant.

Para 2, disappear off, do your Phd in genetics, and in 20 years time come back and let us have the results of your findings. I for one will be all ears! ;)

SusieT, PM me if you'd prefer, I promise that I wont reveal the truth, but.....go on, admit it, you're a troll, aren't you? ;)

Alec.
 
Not commenting on the rights and wrongs, but the ignorance of people is just funny. My mum's last spaniel was half docked, not sure of correct term, it was quite long but no where near full length. Amazingly most people thought he had a full tail.
 
Hello :D I heard my name and couldn't resist :D

Yep, Otto had awful problems with his tail, thankfully solved by moving house (not necessarily action I would advise ;)) He would return from every walk with a split tail, that he would then chew at, the walls in our house used to look like a butchers shop!

A Hound works in a totally different manor to a Spaniel. Nothing goes through thick cover like a Spaniel (I know, I've had to ferret him out of it when he got caught by his tail) - same reason Labs aren't docked, yes you find them on the Beating line, doing a Spaniels job, but they won't ever (well maybe the odd few) hit thick cover hard whilst wagging their tail furiously like a Spaniel.

Otto was never docked under anesthetic, you'll do a bloody better job than I did if you can find a Vet that's willing to do it unless there is major infection/damage - my dog had been in repeatedly to the vets for damage to his tail without any of them ever offering amputation as an option. It's fairly major surgery, you're now removing part of an adult's dog fully formed spine! They often then don't remove enough, so the amputation site gets damaged again, until they've taken off the whole thing, which can cause bladder problems and worse.

As for breeding dogs with tails that can cope with working, yes, in an ideal world that would be perfect and I believe this is now a consideration for Show Spaniels. However there are a lot of other considerations to take into account first - healthy, sound working dogs should be the main criteria.

And yes, lets ban shooting. That's a valid argument. I suppose you've looked at the studies done into how negatively sections of moorland were affected when shooting was stopped on them. The conservation argument for Shooting is a very valid argument. As long as there are 7ft hedges to jump, who really gives a toss though ;)
 
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Laafet said:
Not commenting on the rights and wrongs, but the ignorance of people is just funny. My mum's last spaniel was half docked, not sure of correct term, it was quite long but no where near full length. Amazingly most people thought he had a full tail.
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A correctly docked springer should be left with between 1/2 and 3/5ths. of the tail, and hopefully with a white tip. If the tail is a solid colour, then 1/2, if not and a white tip can be left, then longer is acceptable.

Alec.
 
Laafet said:
Not commenting on the rights and wrongs, but the ignorance of people is just funny. My mum's last spaniel was half docked, not sure of correct term, it was quite long but no where near full length. Amazingly most people thought he had a full tail.
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You tend to find that Spaniels bred for Field Trial work are left longer to make the dog look flashier when working.
 
In regards to susiet's point about breeding tails that are more likely to split...certainly in our breed there are different types of tails and its a definate 'type' of tail that splits and causes problems. That said I'm still pro docking and still think they all should be able to have their tails off as newborns....my puppies tails have been left on BTW although I did consider docking them, Floras tail has not ever caused issue in 2 seasons working and of course, you cant show them docked anymore so I left them on. Dewclaws are off though.
 
Laafet said:
Not commenting on the rights and wrongs, but the ignorance of people is just funny. My mum's last spaniel was half docked, not sure of correct term, it was quite long but no where near full length. Amazingly most people thought he had a full tail.
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Like these two?
Snow.jpg


I didn't think they were docked! Clearly, they are. Compared to my youngsters, who have full tails. Working dock, I think it's called. Show dogs were docked much shorter.

The youngster, full tail:
IMAG0410.jpg
 
Vizslak said:
In regards to susiet's point about breeding tails that are more likely to split...certainly in our breed there are different types of tails and its a definate 'type' of tail that splits and causes problems. That said I'm still pro docking and still think they all should be able to have their tails off as newborns....my puppies tails have been left on BTW although I did consider docking them, Floras tail has not ever caused issue in 2 seasons working and of course, you cant show them docked anymore so I left them on. Dewclaws are off though.
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I've seen many HPRs of various breeds which actually looked better with full tails, than docked. It seems, as with the English Pointer, and our Setters, to give them a better sense of balance. It allows them to balance, too.

Spaniels? A different matter altogether, and it isn't a fad, it's just that for a serious and hard going dog, a full tail is an encumbrance.

Alec.
 
I still dont think they look better with full tails but they dont look silly with them and as I said only a certain 'type' seems to cause issue, tail set makes a difference too...I'm very much hoping that my pups have tails like their mum and therefore are very unlikely to have issue. Of course, HPR's work and use their tails in a totally different way to a spaniel and as such are less likely to injure anyway. I wouldnt ever want a spaniel with a full tail, the chance of injury is to great.
ETA Setters and pointers were never docked anyway....
 
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CT here he is, sadly Flint is not longer with us, we lost him at Christmas, he was just 2.5 years old with cancer. I thought he looked like he had been docked so was surprised when other people thought he wasn't. I grew up with the short style of docking and prefer this working type.

Scotland1022.jpg
 
Laafet said:
CT here he is, sadly Flint is not longer with us, we lost him at Christmas, he was just 2.5 years old with cancer.
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Heartbreaking, lovely looking lad :( I lost one of mine aged 7 from cancer. :(

I only knew my parents in law's spaniels before we got ours, very short docked but my first two were left with 3/5ths, I think.
 
MY JR isn't docked but I wish he had been. He is forever cutting his tail going through the thick brambles looking for bunnies and has ripped his dew claw off a few times :(
 
I've never had much to do with docked working dogs, but would I be right in guessing it's similar to removing dew claws if done at a few days old? (dew claws I do have experience with)
 
There is actually evidence to suggest that young pups are MORE sensitive to pain as they have not developed the dampening mechanisms that adults have to decrease painful feedback. And sucking as its done/after its done is not evidence of low stress/pain as it is well known that sucking is the attempt to alleviate pain and stress.
There is also a theory that pups tail docked early in life are more susceptible to pain later in life, correlated from infacts being circumcised but no substantial evidence for this yet. The important thing is there is no official numbers. Shooting people would be expected to say they want them docked due to injuries, but we all know how reliable joe public is... and animal rights will say don't dock them. We need numbers, so every working injury to tails recorded to quantitively say the majority of dogs need their tails docked..
The docking ban is also being reviewed in 5 years, so seems fair to give it that chance to see the effects.
 
I have bred and shown Old English Sheepdogs for the past 25 years, a traditionally docked breed. Without docking the tail is often longer than the dog and I have received many reports of tail injury since the docking ban including loss of 2 relatively young dogs following amputation. As a member of the council for docked breeds we are collecting and correlating information regarding tail injuries to see the effect the docking ban has had. You can still have your dogs docked legally in Ireland and register/show them under KC rules. I for one will never own an undocked OES
 
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