Docking

To me there is a big difference between removing dew claws and docking a tail. Dogs use their tails as part of their communication process with other dogs, removing them reduces their ability to interact safely with other dogs. This is particularly important for dogs that already have problems being 'read' by other dogs ( boxers have flat faces, OES lots of facial hair). I can see why you would want to dock a spaniel that is worked, but maybe the 1/2 tail dock is a better option ?
 
I must admit I don't like the idea of docking without a local but having never really looked into it when done at days old the impression I get is that its on a similar pain level to dew claws? If so I don't see a problem with it for working dogs. I used to have a lot to do with showing pyreneans, who (unless its changed since) have to have dew claws to show. It's then almost impossible to stop them ripping them off when the dog has a more active life, so I agree it must be the same with a tail for some breeds of working dog.
My only concern is that dodgy back yard breeders might be doing it in an unpleasant way & causing unnecessary pain, but again, without knowing much about docked working dogs I don't know if this is a valid concern.
 
Re. dew claws, its my belief they are worse to do than tails, its a more fiddly tricky job and has potential to bleed out more, pups nearly always yelp. The joke of it is you can still do dew claws legally at home...I would NEVER do dew claws at home, always get a vet to do it, tails I was quite happy to do at home back in the day, without a whimper from pups.
 
No, I've never done dew claws myself either. My only dog breeding experience is the pyreneans growing up, who at the time weren't done. Ones which weren't show standard generally had them done at the same time they were spayed/ castrated iirc. Don't know if it was the norm to do that but at the time pyrenean breeders were very picky as to who bred what. Possibly the bigger breeders did the dew claws themselves, my experience was trying to cope with them on adult dogs, so I can understand the logic of docking.
 
SusieT said:
There is actually evidence to suggest that young pups are MORE sensitive to pain as they have not developed the dampening mechanisms that adults have to decrease painful feedback.

Presumably you have this evidence, available. Could you post it on here?

And sucking as its done/after its done is not evidence of low stress/pain as it is well known that sucking is the attempt to alleviate pain and stress.
There is also a theory that pups tail docked early in life are more susceptible to pain later in life, correlated from infacts being circumcised but no substantial evidence for this yet.

I take it that you meant "infants", but as you say, it's theory only, and it sounds a trifle scatter brained. My earliest memory is from the age of 3 years. After that, about 5 years. I wonder how many Jewish boys remember their circumcision. As puppies and their tales, very few, I suspect!!

The important thing is there is no official numbers. Shooting people would be expected to say they want them docked due to injuries, but we all know how reliable joe public is...

And we also rely upon vets and photographic evidence, or do we? ;)

and animal rights will say don't dock them.

When I meet an animal rights wallah, who speaks with experience, then I may listen.

We need numbers, so every working injury to tails recorded to quantitively say the majority of dogs need their tails docked..
The docking ban is also being reviewed in 5 years, so seems fair to give it that chance to see the effects.
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Alec.
 
For pure drivel spoken with no actual hands on experience SusieT is on a roll right now. Set back indeed!Well a well known dog man called Robert Killick used to have a large kennel of Welsh Terriers and Mini Schnausers,he went to the trouble of weighing pre and apre docked puppies ..as compared to growth rates expected in friends non docked breeds,There was NO setback. As with anything if a puppy was not truly thriving at 2 days then of course a SENSIBLE breeder would hold back a day or two before the snip. Removing dew claws is more stressful..because the little leg has to be held as you do raising a vein ..puppies resent being held that firmly,it is a natural reaction to a possible threat. However the earlier it is done the better the outcome visually,and the older ,even by days,the more stress.So,that knocks that ridiculous theory about pain being felt in a younger whelp MORE than in an older one firmly on the head.I sometimes wonder if these idiots have ever even dealt with puppies or touched them they are so damned ill informed.
Really SusieT do keep stum ..or as the saying goes "endeavour to put your brain into gear before speaking" you clearly know absolutely nothing,another Wikipaediac.
Lambs ,incidently,being much more a sentient creature when docked/ringed do feel pain..mine clearly demonstrated that..which is why on humane grounds the law is an ass.Just that our farming industry is not a soft target for the do-gooders like dog breeders!
 
I have been reasonably closely involved with the tail docking ban in Scotland, and would like to say that as a piece of ANIMAL WELFARE legislation it sucks! The inability of breeders and workers of spaniels in particular to PREVENT a welfare issue with a tiny snip at two days is frustrating and, in my opinion, bordering on cruelty!
The drive and action of a working spaniel almost invariably causes damage to the tail. To cure this in an adult dog is difficult and expensive for the owner and stressful and painful for the dog, in may cases the dog ends up with a tiny tail stump, fully docked or with the threat of euthanasia because it cannot be fixed! This is NOT hearsay or ancedotal and there is plenty of published evidence to back it up. The Scottish Government is conducting research through Glasgow vet school, almost concluded now, which we very much hope will show finally what any one with a working spaniel already knows!! If anyone is a resident, it would help the cause if you were to email your MSP, (find their name via google & postcode) and tell them what you think.
I have 000's of horror stories and strong evidence that spaniel people are now going south to buy docked puppies rather than go through the misery of not docking working dogs! This is a short summary of a long story of legislation being implemented on the basis of half truths and smoke & mirrors tactics oby people who purport to know better!
 
I have 2 GSPs, one docked and one undocked (both born in England after the ban.) It's a shame as i would prefer the 2nd to be undocked but he comes from working lines, and the breeder has to do the whole litter by 2 days old unless you pick one you want undocked. I couldn't pick a pup at 2 days old.

The only reason it's a shame is cos i want to show him, i think it's ridiculous that you can legally dock but then can't show, even though you have the certificate from the vet.

Having one with a tail and one without, i'm just lucky the elder one hasn't split his so far, they wag furiously and it bashes against everything. Hard.
 
Only Crufts has a qualifier and it is a much better show if you attend without a dog.
The important shows are the breed club championships.
 
I brought my father a springer for his birthday 14 years ago, he was not docked and he became a working dog. Every weekend that poor dogs tail, got ripped, caught up and bled awfully. In the end the poor dog only had to wag his tail, knock it on an table leg and he would yelp and the tail would bleed profusely. It turned black on the end before the vet decided it was ok to remove the end of his tail, my father managed to persuade the vet to remove half of his tail to prevent it happening again. He has never had a poorly tail since, I'm glad to say!

When father decided to buy another springer he would only buy one with a docked tail, to avoid what I described above.

On the other hand, I have a doberman and she is docked. She doesn't like going in hedges or any thing prickly, her coat is too fine. I think in this instance it is unnecessary and purely a fashion statement of such?

There's my 2 bob's worth any way....
 
I have to say I wouldnt want a 'show dog' docked, it would be very frustrating when trying to campaign a dog and not being able to take it to major shows or go to crufts with it. Some of the bigger champ shows have scrubbed admission fees to allow docked dogs to be shown, but not all and its a stupid rule and causes a major issue in breeds that are meant to be dual purpose.
 
CL66 said:
The only reason it's a shame is cos i want to show him, i think it's ridiculous that you can legally dock but then can't show, even though you have the certificate from the vet.

Having one with a tail and one without, i'm just lucky the elder one hasn't split his so far, they wag furiously and it bashes against everything. Hard.
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This doesnt make sense to me, as whenever I watch say, crufts, they rave about 'sir poofie' who works AND shows and makes sense to me that working breeds work AND show (im aware why this is almost always impossible to keep the dog nice etc) but to blanket ban working dogs from being shown in this way is bemusing :confused:

s4sugar said:
You can show a legally docked dog - as long as the show doesn't charge an admission fee to the public.
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again. bemusing.

I must say, I saw this thread earlier and saved it for when I had a cuppa and it didnt let me down!! *chukkles!!* :p
 
The kennel club (Cruft`s) and all other championship shows could defeat the act at a stroke by ceasing to charge admission fees to the show,seems they are too greedy to do this though. Working Terrier shows usually now charge car parking and class entry BUT no admission charges to foot soldiers.
So many breeds now are frankly abhorrent to us died in the wool show breeders..for instance ..dobies,Pem corgis,airdales,norfolks,rotties,spaniels of all sorts now resemble short legged setter crosses. As for old english..well purely on sanitary welfare grounds they should definitely be docked.
So really the ball does lie in the show society`s lap.
 
East Kent I hate to tell you but an old fellow who had lots of dogs saying it didn't hurt (many sheep farmers claim it doesn't hurt lambs.. whcih you yourself admit it does) is not what one would call worthwhile spouting off about. Trying to suggest that anyone who doesn't support docking has no experience is eh..juvenile? There is something called an open mind and examing things from a perspective other than attractiveness point of view. Thankfully the law is in place to hinder people like you from continueing because that's the way it's always been and it's never hurt you...
Alec-yes but the link is currently down for some reason so I will post it when it returns.
 
Surely it's better from a welfare point of view, as Newfie pointed out earlier, to dock at two days rather than allow persistent injury or worse, for someone to attempt a DIY job? And surely it could only encourage good breeding over here rather than people resorting to buying unseen from Eire as per my OP?
 
amy_b said:
This doesnt make sense to me, as whenever I watch say, crufts, they rave about 'sir poofie' who works AND shows and makes sense to me that working breeds work AND show (im aware why this is almost always impossible to keep the dog nice etc) but to blanket ban working dogs from being shown in this way is bemusing :confused:



again. bemusing.

I must say, I saw this thread earlier and saved it for when I had a cuppa and it didnt let me down!! *chukkles!!* :p
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Tis indeed bemusing. My dog works and shows and I'm proud of that, however if she had her tail off she wouldnt be allowed at crufts....equally if she split her full tail whilst out working she would look a wreck in the ring and they would chuck me out the class for having an injured dog! :p Its annoying, thankfully she has never split her tail but 100 % docked dogs should be allowed in the ring....granted its not that many in the grand scheme of total breeds, but there are quite a few breeds that are totally 'fit for function' as the kc calls it and have no breed divide in show/work types, of course they should be allowed to be shown at kc shows with their tails legally docked for work! The KC allows registration of legally docked pups that are destined to work, why shouldnt they be allowed to be shown too!? The other massive issue I have found with this current litter is of course in a truely dual purpose breed you have a mix of puppy owners wanting the pups for different things, some will be shown, some worked, some just family pets. Now you either dock the whole litter or you dont, to match pups to owners you need to make sure everyone is getting the right dog, its no good giving the people that want a worker the chilled out lazy pup and no good giving the people with young kids that want a family pet the most boisterous drivey working type puppy. However, rightly, the working people tend to want tails off if they arent showing too. But you just cant risk taking tails off individual pups at 2 days old hoping that you have picked the right one!! I considered it and then quickly stopped...for example, I'm not doing with this litter but ordinarily I would be picking a pup from the litter to keep, I want it to work and show so therefore at the moment I would have to keep the tail on. I would likely pick my pup based on conformation and personality at around 6 weeks. Now supposing I had taken a punt and docked a bitch pup for my owners that want to work and then on stacking at 5, 6, 7 weeks and making my pick I realise my 'show star' of the litter is the bitch I lopped the tail off at 2 days old...mortified wouldnt cut it!! Stupid fing rule.
 
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How do you think docking will improve good breeding? If someone is stupid enought o buy unseen just because it is missing part of its tail they are not the sort who will be encouraging good breeding anyway. The point is we disagree on the issue of whether the majority of dogs will get injured tails and the stress it causes a newborn pup.
 
SusieT said:
How do you think docking will improve good breeding? If someone is stupid enought o buy unseen just because it is missing part of its tail they are not the sort who will be encouraging good breeding anyway. The point is we disagree on the issue of whether the majority of dogs will get injured tails and the stress it causes a newborn pup.
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Nobody said it would improve good breeding? Docking has naff all to do with good breeding or bad breeding.
What it has the potential to do is create breed divides in breeds where there currently is none and that would be a real shame.
 
SusieT said:
Vizlak CT said it would discourage good breeding to ban docking up there..
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Up where?! Even I'm confused and I thought I was keeping up! :rolleyes: I said in Eire you can get a pup legally docked.

My train of thought is that we should not be discouraging good breeders from docking in the UK because some people will want docked dogs and will go elsewhere for them. For sure, my mate is talking about travelling to Ireland for her next Doberman because she wants a docked one.
 
Having had docked Dobermanns in the past it took a long time to get used to the tails of Diesel and Darcy, but Ive gone from not liking with tails to actually seeing the benefits. Other dogs seem less aggressive towards them as they are easier to read with wagging tails and Dobermanns have always been fast and agile but to see how they use their tails to balance and turn have given them an edge imo.

I am still undecided though whether I prefer them with or without.:)
 
Vizslak said:
eh I'm lost
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Good, I don't mind being lost if there's someone with me! :D

My point was that we should be encouraging good breeding here, health testing, careful selection of parents etc. We shouldn't be making people go abroad to source docked dogs. Strikes me as a bit extreme to go abroad for a docked dog as you can't then show to a high level, but some people are very firm in what they want, even from a pet dog.
 
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