Docking

CAYLA said:
neutering does have benefits and acts as a very good preventitive if done early enough, and it what way does it change a dog? im still not joining the docking debate mind you:p
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You know my thoughts on 'automatic' neutering. I don't agree unless the dog is after females on a constant but as Brig proves, he doesn't even know what girls are, nor did Jake. Zak's never off lead, Bear is too fast to even notice girls, I have to recall him to meet other dogs!

If neutering is to prevent suffering ie the torment of running after in season females, then surely docking is similar? Done early to prevent suffering down the line? In terms of working dogs or dogs likely to injure their tails, I mean.
 
Oh indeed i agree with the docking early for prevention, same with neutering. But the neutering benefits are far more than just preventing impregnating bitches, but again i aint getting into this docking debate im sure those who hunt know the benefits, infact not sure how i ended here, bored from night shift now bed!
 
'Then why I have spoken with so many people who weren't given pain killers for their (male) dog after neutering? '

Because there was pain relief given before the op and possibly during/after at the vets to prevent pain mechanisms swinging into action, and the sensation increasing so basically the pain never gets started so subsides much quicker, pain relief lasts 1-2days so by the time it's wearing off the dog is not painful anymore in many cases-that saying I personally prefer painkillers to be provided for 3 days post surgery also but there's not evidence for it being any better.
The crucial comparison is that the dog is anaesthetised for the procedure and appropriate sterile conditions are maintained.
 
I have a docked dobie and she has no probs with her tail being touched. She also has her dew claws removed too.

She manages to run and balance just fine. She is forever galloping about like a horse jumping whatever she can.

Alec you are right about the bird like thing. She is very expressionless towards strangers. Just stares at them with her "poker" face :)
 
CaveCanem said:
Is now a bad time to admit I have always found cropped and docked dobes very striking to look at :o :o :o
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Funnily I agree with you:) but having owned both I can and do see the advantages of a tail.

I still dont know which I prefer docked or undocked, it often depends if I get hit with a wagging tail and boy does that hurt:(:)

Without a tail they are instantly recognised, with a tail some numpty asked me was Diesel a Great Dane.:D
 
From a purely selfish viewpoint I do think both rotties & dobes look nicer docked. But unless their job made it vital I don't prefer it. I've not looked into it enough to know the physical benefits to the dog with a full tail, but I know from experience a lot of other dogs find it extremely hard to read body language from them.
 
Littlelegs I did say this earlier, my previous Dobes(docked) often had dogs acting aggressively towards them purely because they couldnt read their body language.

My current 2 have tails and have had no such experience as its difficult to miss their long waggy tails.:D
 
SusieT said:
Because there was pain relief given before the op and possibly during/after at the vets to prevent pain mechanisms swinging into action, and the sensation increasing so basically the pain never gets started so subsides much quicker, pain relief lasts 1-2days so by the time it's wearing off the dog is not painful anymore in many cases.
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Man, what are you on?! I'd like some! I must tell this to the two vets at the yard later! Brilliant, keep it coming!
 
Dobiegirl- it wasn't at all aimed at your post was just sticking my two pence worth in. And I agree on being smacked with a tail, mines a cross but has the full dobie tail & well mannered as he is its lethal! You could leave a roast chicken on the coffee table without him touching it but his tail can clear it in seconds!
 
cinnamontoast said:
Man, what are you on?! I'd like some! I must tell this to the two vets at the yard later! Brilliant, keep it coming!
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Shes not on anything. Its called multimodal pain control and is one of the principles of anesthesia.
If you block the pain early,you have less pain later is the basic principle. Its as if your body never felt and so never truly responded to the pain as the drugs block different parts of the pain pathway.
Fascinating stuff the analgesics and pain control theres hundreds of papers out there...

Vets do a quite a lot of study in anesthesia and pain management :P

But as with all things different dogs are different and in some cases some need more pain control then other and some need less.
 
Aru said:
Shes not on anything. Its called multimodal pain control and is one of the principles of anesthesia.
If you block the pain early,you have less pain later is the basic principle. Its as if your body never felt and so never truly responded to the pain as the drugs block different parts of the pain pathway.
Fascinating stuff the analgesics and pain control theres hundreds of papers out there...

Vets do a quite a lot of study in anesthesia and pain management :P

But as with all things different dogs are different and in some cases some need more pain control then other and some need less.
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I can see the logic of this, back in the day when I had pains if I took pain killers straight away it knocked it straight on the head. If I waited until it got really bad it took forever to get it under control.
 
Dobiegirl said:
I can see the logic of this, back in the day when I had pains if I took pain killers straight away it knocked it straight on the head. If I waited until it got really bad it took forever to get it under control.
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Ya its really cool isnt it.

Its also done to prevent "wind up" which is a chronic pain that can happen after operations where pain becomes hypersensitive and persists even after the initial stimulus is gone.
Its not documented in animals as they cannot tell us where they are sore exactly like people can but its recognized though uncommon (thankfully) in people and the same principles apply to animals when it comes to certain types of pain control.
So analgesics/painkillers are given ideally before the painful stimulus and dogs are also often pre-medicated with drugs that have pain control properties before they are even put under.

Can you tell I've being doing a lot of Anesthesia study coming up to exams this year :P
 
littlelegs said:
Dobiegirl- it wasn't at all aimed at your post was just sticking my two pence worth in. And I agree on being smacked with a tail, mines a cross but has the full dobie tail & well mannered as he is its lethal! You could leave a roast chicken on the coffee table without him touching it but his tail can clear it in seconds!
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Littlelegs I wasnt having a go at you, I was agreeing with you, I was trying to point you to the post where I said the same thing earlier.:)

Hope you didnt take offence as none was intended.
 
Aru said:
Shes not on anything. Its called multimodal pain control and is one of the principles of anesthesia.
If you block the pain early,you have less pain later is the basic principle. Its as if your body never felt and so never truly responded to the pain as the drugs block different parts of the pain pathway.
Fascinating stuff the analgesics and pain control theres hundreds of papers out there...

Vets do a quite a lot of study in anesthesia and pain management :P

But as with all things different dogs are different and in some cases some need more pain control then other and some need less.
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Anyone checked with the dog? I'm aware of the multimodal pain control and I'd agree wholeheartedly-with human subjects who can verbalise their pain, but not with an animal.
 
'Anyone checked with the dog? I'm aware of the multimodal pain control and I'd agree wholeheartedly-with human subjects who can verbalise their pain, but not with an animal. ' I don't understand what you mean here? You don't believe in pain control in animals because they can't verbalise it in any way other than whining/howling? I really don't understand what your last post meant?
 
cinnamontoast said:
Anyone checked with the dog? I'm aware of the multimodal pain control and I'd agree wholeheartedly-with human subjects who can verbalise their pain, but not with an animal.
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Checking with the dog......of course they do thats why I said not all dogs are the same.

But as it happens yes there are official tested ways of working out the pain levels in dogs post surgery.....Glasgow pain scale is the officially recognised one that we use. Its not just vocalisations its the demeanor,the stance,the way they observe their wounds, if they guard them,if the heart rate is high.Theres a load of indicators.....but your right there are cue signs that people familiar with the dog will know to tell the level of comfort.But If they are asked how they will just say they just know but its often they are familiar with normal to that dog and can tell its abnormal.

Anesthesia is a science.Veterinary anesthesia is a speciality area of vet medicine....but the studies etc are not just based on looking and observations they are based on regulated repeatable scientific method test's like the glasgow pain scale.If it cannot be supported with scientific methods then it wouldn't have got published so widely.Its subjective to a point but pain is like that. Hell peoples perceptions of pain can vary hugely but we dont pretend that they aren't feeling pain.
Theres also the issue of chronic and acute pain. Chronic is much more difficult to assess in people let along dogs

Yes dogs are difficult to tell pain in compared to people.Stoic dogs are amazing they tolerate everything bravely.But their heart rates are still high when in acute pain.They do show signs you just have to know where and how to look. One of the sweetest dogs I know was in because of a osteosarcoma.She was in intense pain whenever anyone touched her leg.Its a painful condition in general. But she tolerated it without a noise. Just a slight drop of the head and a heart rate surge up when her leg was moved. She didn't screech,she didnt cry.When she rolled on her leg after the biopsies she had to have been sore but she hid it because that was the type of dog she was.....but her heart was going so fast. She was topped up with more analgesia inspite of splash blocks and multimodal. But it wasn't easy to read her just by looking.

Every dog is different but they all do feel pain. Some hide it well,some have high thresholds and others are really sore after the most minor procedures.

But multimodal pain control is shown to help. Having watched dogs in different practices recover with different systems and without I have no doubts that multiple works well for a lot of animals. Some may still need more post op but in general it does make a difference.The recoveries are smoother the post op period shows much less misery than those without.
 
Vizslak said:
But the CNS of puppies is not fully developed at 2 days old
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This is another thing I dont understand.
Why do people think that the Central Nervous System in puppies isn't developed?
Do people think that the CNS of human babies isn't developed at 2 days old?

Is it because they dont have the ability to control their bodies or what is it that has people so convinced?

Genuinely curious about this one......esp as its the opposite to what I was taught and id like to hear the other side of the argument.....
 
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Alec obviously, hence I said 'verbalise' in reply to CT-can you interpret any clearer what CT was saying? I am not clear what she was trying to get at
 
Dobiegirl- course i'm not offended, I thought you'd taken my post the wrong way that's all, I was agreeing with you too. Shows how easy it is to get crossed wires on line lol.
 
Aru said:
Checking with the dog......of course they do thats why I said not all dogs are the same.

But as it happens yes there are official tested ways of working out the pain levels in dogs post surgery.....Glasgow pain scale is the officially recognised one that we use. Its not just vocalisations its the demeanor,the stance,the way they observe their wounds, if they guard them,if the heart rate is high.Theres a load of indicators.....but your right there are cue signs that people familiar with the dog will know to tell the level of comfort.But If they are asked how they will just say they just know but its often they are familiar with normal to that dog and can tell its abnormal.

Anesthesia is a science.Veterinary anesthesia is a speciality area of vet medicine....but the studies etc are not just based on looking and observations they are based on regulated repeatable scientific method test's like the glasgow pain scale.If it cannot be supported with scientific methods then it wouldn't have got published so widely.Its subjective to a point but pain is like that. Hell peoples perceptions of pain can vary hugely but we dont pretend that they aren't feeling pain.
Theres also the issue of chronic and acute pain. Chronic is much more difficult to assess in people let along dogs

Yes dogs are difficult to tell pain in compared to people.Stoic dogs are amazing they tolerate everything bravely.But their heart rates are still high when in acute pain.They do show signs you just have to know where and how to look. One of the sweetest dogs I know was in because of a osteosarcoma.She was in intense pain whenever anyone touched her leg.Its a painful condition in general. But she tolerated it without a noise. Just a slight drop of the head and a heart rate surge up when her leg was moved. She didn't screech,she didnt cry.When she rolled on her leg after the biopsies she had to have been sore but she hid it because that was the type of dog she was.....but her heart was going so fast. She was topped up with more analgesia inspite of splash blocks and multimodal. But it wasn't easy to read her just by looking.

Every dog is different but they all do feel pain. Some hide it well,some have high thresholds and others are really sore after the most minor procedures.

But multimodal pain control is shown to help. Having watched dogs in different practices recover with different systems and without I have no doubts that multiple works well for a lot of animals. Some may still need more post op but in general it does make a difference.The recoveries are smoother the post op period shows much less misery than those without.
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All I know is I had strong painkillers before my appendectomy and was still in immense pain post-op and yet managed to give birth successfully with the occasional whiff of gas and air. :D
 
Aru said:
This is another thing I dont understand.
Why do people think that the Central Nervous System in puppies isn't developed?
Do people think that the CNS of human babies isn't developed at 2 days old?

Is it because they dont have the ability to control their bodies or what is it that has people so convinced?

Genuinely curious about this one......esp as its the opposite to what I was taught and id like to hear the other side of the argument.....
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Based purely on practical experience Aru..I would take the non reaction of a suckling puppy or it`s mother to quietly docking and cauterising in the nest as an indication of non pain. Also I doubt the same non reaction would occur if the puppy was ,say,four weeks old. If a puppy is picked up by it`s mother,or trodden on ,however,it will scream at whatever age.Lambs that are rung however,being much more with it at two days DO exhibit pain,and I hated doing the boys especially;I actually find the way pain is ok in farm animals,but not in dog breeding ,where I believe there is little or none,quite hypocritical. It is so much easier to hit a soft target is`nt it?
I do hope some of your studies will include a period of working in a breeding kennel so you get the chance to see some of these reactions for yourself,it is fascinating and often the opposite to what you may presume. I used to be extremely anti docking/dew claw removal..until I had practical experience ..firstly under tuition(!) then on my own.The only dew claw that ever got a little infected was done at a vets!
 
Have been reading this with interest having recently collected a DOCKED working cocker puppy :eek: :p
Took her to the vets this week and had an interesting conversation about docking vs not in spaniel breeds - vet was glad to see Thea is docked, albeit only 3/4 so left quite long and as the vet described it "they've just removed the whippy bit". Compared to the 2yo spaniel that she's got coming back in next week to have it's tail amputated - owner had been adamant they didn't want a docked dog and unfortunately the dog has suffered because of it, repeated splits now resulting in amputation :(
 
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