Docking

[Cinnamontoast]

Alec obviously, hence I said 'verbalise' in reply to CT-can you interpret any clearer what CT was saying? I am not clear what she was trying to get at

I was attempting to say that I don't believe it's the right method to use with a dog. It's fine with a human who can tell the doctor he or she is in pain if the painkillers are not forthcoming.

Some dogs, as mentioned by Aru, are very stoical and would not show visible signs of pain although as Alec says, you know your dog and you can see if it's in pain usually.

Big dog has opened several layers on his belly, ripped off a pad etc and didn't ever whinge. I was glad he was given pain relief.

I think it a little unfair to withold painkillers when dealing with animals. Possibly I'm too soppy.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

I was attempting to say that I don't believe it's the right method to use with a dog. It's fine with a human who can tell the doctor he or she is in pain if the painkillers are not forthcoming.

Some dogs, as mentioned by Aru, are very stoical and would not show visible signs of pain although as Alec says, you know your dog and you can see if it's in pain usually.

Big dog has opened several layers on his belly, ripped off a pad etc and didn't ever whinge. I was glad he was given pain relief.

I think it a little unfair to withold painkillers when dealing with animals. Possibly I'm too soppy.

I have to say, I too, would prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to pain management in my animals. As long as the correct dose is administered then no harm, apart from, that is, to your bank balance!

 

[SusieT]

The point is painkillers aren't being witheld, the pain is being managed prior to the dog even waking up and by the time it wears off the dog is its happy self. How else do you judge when to stop the painkillers? How long do you keep giving painkillers for? Until the stitches are out? For a month? Bearing in mind painkillers have side effects so in general you are trying to give for as short a time as the pain.

 

[Alec Swan]

This is another thing I dont understand.
Why do people think that the Central Nervous System in puppies isn't developed?
Do people think that the CNS of human babies isn't developed at 2 days old?

Is it because they dont have the ability to control their bodies or what is it that has people so convinced?

Genuinely curious about this one......esp as its the opposite to what I was taught and id like to hear the other side of the argument.....

As none of us seem to be scientists, much of this, on our parts, is conjecture, but so to continue.......... I'm not too sure about the argument regarding the CNS, and of what use it is. For instance, if you take a puppy which is blind and deaf at birth, and you pinch a toe with your fingers, then they will, as a human baby, attempt to pull away. From that we can conclude that they have the sensation of pain.

HOWEVER, I've docked the tails of a great many puppies, when it was legal, and whilst to say that they don't feel it, would be nonsense, I suspect that the iodine hurt more than the snip. That it caused a degree of pain, would be obvious, but within perhaps 30 seconds, they were quiet. Remove the finger (as a for instance) of a child, without any anaesthetic, who was capable of a conversation, and the reaction would be deafening, understandably.

When a mammal is born blind, deaf and helpless, I honestly believe that they're only part formed. Bones in tails, for instance, aren't bone as we would understand it, more a cartilage. In the days when lambs tails were cut off, and then skinned and then dropped into a frying pan, the bones weren't bones at all, and were nothing more than a fairly solid cartilage. They were delicious, too!!

I probably haven't helped the argument, a great deal, but in truth, if I thought that the removal of the tail, from a 2 day old puppy was the agony which we might imagine, then I wouldn't do it.

Alec.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

The point is painkillers aren't being witheld, the pain is being managed prior to the dog even waking up and by the time it wears off the dog is its happy self. How else do you judge when to stop the painkillers? How long do you keep giving painkillers for? Until the stitches are out? For a month? Bearing in mind painkillers have side effects so in general you are trying to give for as short a time as the pain.

After a spaying/neuturing I would continue painkillers three days post op. If the dog appeared comfortable, eating well, peeing/pooing as normal then I would discontinue. All meds can have side effects, but the pros and cons should be considered and as I said previously, I would rather err on the side of caution for the sake of a few pills for a few days that may give relief to an animal, stoic or otherwise.

 

[SusieT]

'whilst to say that they don't feel it, would be nonsense' and yet East Kent has insisted that they don't over several pages and that anyone with 'experience' would know this..

 

[SusieT]

why 3 days? Why not 4? And how do you judge that its time to remove if dog has been eating normally, passing normal motions from day one (the night of the op they tend to be groggy from the anaesthetic)?

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

why 3 days? Why not 4? And how do you judge that its time to remove if dog has been eating normally, passing normal motions from day one (the night of the op they tend to be groggy from the anaesthetic)?

I have no idea. I just do. If after a day of no painkillers they show signs of discomfort etc then I would pop them back on them, common sense really.

 

[SusieT]

the thing is, vets do have an idea, they have qualified and studied and know how long a drug lasts etc. so they therefore are in the best place to advise adn this is why drugs are prescription so qualified people can advise based on facts not gut feeling (although I appreciate everything stems from gut feeling)

 

[Cinnamontoast]

the thing is, vets do have an idea, they have qualified and studied and know how long a drug lasts etc. so they therefore are in the best place to advise adn this is why drugs are prescription so qualified people can advise based on facts not gut feeling (although I appreciate everything stems from gut feeling)

I agree, partly, although speaking to a friend today who is in training, she is appalled at how much she has yet to learn before qualifying. They aren't experts in every area and the owner can sometimes have a valid input.

They're qualified, they studied, they're not infallible. The amount of people I've spoken to who said their vet refused to listen to them and then had problems treating the horse/dog is huge.

One vet threw a towel at my (very headshy) mare's head because she reared at the sight of needles and the vet refused to believe that she'd need sedating for a change of bandage. She was trying to cover her eyes. She had to call a colleague to help.

Don't get me wrong, I love my current vet, but sometimes I do wonder how they can purport to know everything about everything.

 

[SusieT]

how is that relevant to standard pain relief policies? In pain relief the average vet should know far more than the average pet owner.

 

[Aru]

This is another thing I dont understand.
Why do people think that the Central Nervous System in puppies isn't developed?
Do people think that the CNS of human babies isn't developed at 2 days old?

Is it because they dont have the ability to control their bodies or what is it that has people so convinced?

Genuinely curious about this one......esp as its the opposite to what I was taught and id like to hear the other side of the argument.....

Based purely on practical experience Aru..I would take the non reaction of a suckling puppy or it`s mother to quietly docking and cauterising in the nest as an indication of non pain. Also I doubt the same non reaction would occur if the puppy was ,say,four weeks old. If a puppy is picked up by it`s mother,or trodden on ,however,it will scream at whatever age.Lambs that are rung however,being much more with it at two days DO exhibit pain,and I hated doing the boys especially;I actually find the way pain is ok in farm animals,but not in dog breeding ,where I believe there is little or none,quite hypocritical. It is so much easier to hit a soft target is`nt it?
I do hope some of your studies will include a period of working in a breeding kennel so you get the chance to see some of these reactions for yourself,it is fascinating and often the opposite to what you may presume. I used to be extremely anti docking/dew claw removal..until I had practical experience ..firstly under tuition(!) then on my own.The only dew claw that ever got a little infected was done at a vets!

Ive seen puppies docked as it happens not at at the vets or at a proper breeders (my family weren't great believers in vets for small animals when I was a child.They have no idea where I got my inclinations from ) So in fairness what I would have seen isn't a serious breeders setting and wasn't ideal. But my uncle had gun dogs and used to breed cockers and springers so I have had the chance to see some pups being born and more than a few docked.
Some were fine with it..other's screamed blue murder.Some got weepy tails,some did just fine.One of the lovely little roans(always my favourite's of the cockers) died a few days later from infection.None of them initially went off the suck that I remember though it has been a long time.
So perhaps having seen the less than ideal situation I am somewhat gunshy to the idea of docking. That they feel pain I have no doubt.The suckling etc is what infants do for comfort and endorphins its the same with babies if they are small and need injections they are
given something to suck. They most certainly would object quite a lot more as older pups.

The issue is though that in current research and this is what our embryology lecturer(who wrote the main books on the subject) would have said is carnivore have a CNS system that is not fully formed until 6 weeks unlike herbivore foals lambs and calves who are born ready to get up and go fully in control of all their senses once the work out what they are.

But as the cns i.e. voluntary motor movement of the legs and senses like eyes ears etc were delayed it it used to be thought that dogs have not fully formed nervous signals so the pain pathways were lessened in pups.
This has been disproven and its actually the case that infants are hypersensitive to pain because they feel it but unlike in older animals they do not have the inhibition,the message to turn of pain off,fully formed so the pain is quite likely to be more severe.

But as they are such young animals they cannot express pain in the ways most do as their CNS reactions are off.They cant flail around like a foal or buck like a lamb they can squeak and squirm or as many people noted here they tend to seek comfort and endorphins from their mothers milk and scent(the soothing sent that bitch's give off to lactating puppies is whats in the DAP collars) Seems like a bit of a raw deal to just assume they feel no pain when they cant express it very well.

If you tried to do what we do to puppies in foals who are born able to use all their limbs and are in full awareness of surroundings they would go bananas.Its much like any injury or pain in foals they act as if they are dying even for mild colic as they have not being exposed to pain very often and can and do express their dislike of the sensation using movement.

TBH farm animals get the raw deal when it comes to pain control,and I do agree that ringing lambs is painful to them. I really dont like to see it done in the ram lambs but thankfully have only come across it occasionally as where Im from we kill ram lambs young so castration isn't required.
The only reason I find the ringing some what more excusable of the tails of lambs is because Flystrike is such a horrible disease to get and its so common that some sort of tail dock is needed. I dont think its ideal but the economics of farming has it button holed at the minute. I am very glad that we do not have breeds of sheep or a climate that brings on practices like muleing .

TBH done in a sterile field with properly sterilized instruments,preferably at home as small puppies and vet practices do not a good mix make, and with a bitch beside them and some lidocaine to numb,though lidocaine stings it works well at numbing pain after, I would be quite happy to dock gundog pups as long as they were going to be worked. I have my doubts about how much of a difference it makes in the overall scheme but like SusieT im waiting to see more studies on wether the undocked gundogs do get more tail injurys or not....but it does make sense that they are high risk when working cover.

I wouldn't be happy to dock Dobes. I think its purely cosmetic plus in a breed where Von Willebrands can be an issue and only the responsible are testing for it its like dicing with death to see if your pups will clot or not and I have heard the horror stories of puppies who bled out and the owners blamed the vet as they didn't believe the dog was carrying diseases and accused them of "covering up".
It would be nice to think that everyone is responsible with their dogs,knows the basics about breeding and issues of the breed they own but IMO thus for I have found the opposite to be true. Accidental litters and back yard breeders are ten times more common than responsible breeders. Many people do not research their breeds before they buy them and as for neutering many people who own entire dogs do not keep them under control.Perhaps its better in england than here but that has been my experience of practice over the last few years.

Boxers, rotties, OES, terriers......I dont see how it benefits these dogs to be docked.It seems to be cosmetic...all dogs have a risk of splitting their tails open if the traumatise it.These non working dogs do not tend to do the type of terrain that spaniels do half as often.So they should be no more likely to do damage than other undocked dog.

and i am most definately rambling on now so il quit while im ahead...

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Standard pain relief? How about the vet who rendered a horse unconscious when trying to sedate it? Surely that's also standard? Unless you're trying to kill the horse? Basic weight ratio is quite straight forward, unless you don't know it off by heart as a vet with many years' experience will have.

Vets, as I said, are not infallible. I seriously think their first few years of practise are very scary: they can't remember everything and they're alone on callouts. They don't know the animal better than the owner and should take on board what the contribution from the owner constitutes, including the need or otherwise for pain relief.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

But Aru, it's pretty hard to guarantee that all pups from a litter will be working. You have to, as the breeder, make the decision to dock or otherwise at a couple of days. It's like Vizzy already said, you can't leave one undocked thinking you'll keep it for showing when in 6 weeks you might change your mind.

 

[SusieT]

'Standard pain relief? How about the vet who rendered a horse unconscious when trying to sedate it? Surely that's also standard? Unless you're trying to kill the horse? Basic weight ratio is quite straight forward, unless you don't know it off by heart as a vet with many years' experience will have.' again how is that relevant? It's quite obvious that is not normal given by the many horses sedated daily.. As I say, average vet knows more than average pet owner regarding required pain relief. and a vet being new doesn't mean they know less, in fact their knowledge is up to date so most accurate on things LIKE pain relief. But I digress, you clearly have beef with vets in general but like it or not owners have not studied, often misinterpret things (which is the most important bit) and cannot look at the animal from an objective viewpoint in an average scenario. That's all I have to say as we're going round in circles adn I don't see the need for lots of 'but this vet was crap, oh but this vet was good' stories.

 

[SusieT]

Aru, excellent post.

 

[Aru]

But Aru, it's pretty hard to guarantee that all pups from a litter will be working. You have to, as the breeder, make the decision to dock or otherwise at a couple of days. It's like Vizzy already said, you can't leave one undocked thinking you'll keep it for showing when in 6 weeks you might change your mind.

Thats why it would be really go to know if spaniels are actually that much higher of a risk or not.... if they are not then the owners might have to chose which they want show dogs or working dogs. I doubt quite highly that a pet spaniel is at as high a risk as a working one. Pets dont tend to have the same freedom to get under cover as a working dog and if they do then the question is are these dogs more at risk then a similar undocked dog....im most cases I'd say they are not.People and pets can get unlucky but the constant risk isn't there.
That said how many working dogs are genuinely show quality? in many breeds the show strain and the workers are well separated at this point.Granted there are exceptions and Vizslas happen to be one of them

Perhaps my gundog knowledge has gotten rusty but vizslas are the multipurpose point retrieve dogs no? but pointers and retrievers dont usually work deep cover....they enter to retrieve but they dont get the same constant exposure as spaniels.So why chop of the end of the tail?
Is the risk to the tip third that much higher than a retriever entering?
pointer are docked in some breeds but not others.....the english pointers aren't docked true they do not always retriever though some can be good at it....if they are ok why are they insisting on taking of the tip of other pointing breeds. Cosmetics or breed standards how different are they....
So I'd be tempted to say leave all the tails alone if your not sure.Why chop off the tail unnecessarily in a dog that may never work or if it does work will not be constantly working deep cover....but perhaps im missing something as its late and I should really be in bed...

 

[Alec Swan]

Aru,

the risk to spaniels, or HPRs isn't so much because of the fact that one will or wont enter dense cover, but more because of their action. Spaniels in particular have a near frantic tail action, and this is where they are at risk. It's true that HPRs tend not to be quite as keen on the worst of cover, as are spaniels, but none the less, there are many who have a tail action which is just as energetic, and therein lies the risk.

Alec.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

SusieT, it is honestly AMAZING how you manage to tell me what I think! I do to have a 'beef' with vets generally. I gave examples because it shows that they sometimes don't know best, despite the studying. Sometimes it is a good idea to listen to the owner.

P.S. To quote, click on quote, bottom right. It's quite simple. To multi quote, click on the box with the + and the ".

 

[EAST KENT]

Well,maybe in my innocence then I was docking my puppies whilst endorphins were being released..brilliant! It was just my way of ensuring no visible pain ,no idea it was all scientific.
Spaniels working cover definitely need docking,just common sense once you see the frantic tail lashing normal to them almost all the time in action. OES..mm..having done dog grooming for many many years they most definitely need docking.Possibly with an attentive owner it might be ok,but the vast majority get the owners I tended to see.Only did one OES with a tail..and I had no idea it was there before I got to that area with the Stablemate clippers (dog clippers are`nt man enough for a well matted OES) That tail was glued to a hind leg with matted fur and poop ..long dried.
The owners were`nt cruel or openly neglectful,just unaware that this previous farm breed now had such a ridiculous high maintenance coat that it could`nt romp aropund outside like it`s ancesters did.
Sad that Aru`s breeding kennel experience did not include using the wondrous potassium permangernate (?) as a stop bleed and sterilising agent on tails and dew claws,it is a miraculous if old fashioned way of absolutely ensuring clean healing.
It has one snag though,your fingers afterward will look like you smoke 80 of the old "Turf" ciggies every day!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Re OES my best friend and her parents have bred them for years. Undocked and unclipped, the mess is horrendous. As EK says, many owners these days don't realise what is required to keep the BOBTAIL (not anymore!) in good nick.