Dodgy vettings

not an issue with the sellers, but i had a vet from a very well respected practice tell me over the phone that she had passed, end of basically, only for the paperwork to arrive and instead of circling will/will not (pose a suitable amount of risk) he had written “might”.

reason was he didn’t see her canter under saddle - she’d not long been backed, not properly ridden away, fine on the lunge and loose just not quite there ridden yet.

was not best pleased when she went lame a couple of months later from being kicked and the insurance tried to get out of paying it!
 
dottylottie said:
not an issue with the sellers, but i had a vet from a very well respected practice tell me over the phone that she had passed, end of basically, only for the paperwork to arrive and instead of circling will/will not (pose a suitable amount of risk) he had written “might”.

reason was he didn’t see her canter under saddle - she’d not long been backed, not properly ridden away, fine on the lunge and loose just not quite there ridden yet.

was not best pleased when she went lame a couple of months later from being kicked and the insurance tried to get out of paying it!
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Gosh that’s not good, sorry you had to go through that!

So they give a result over phone and then you also need to wait for paperwork through the post? Sorry I haven’t been through this before! X
 
I sold a horse about 20 years ago, vet turned up over an hour later than he was supposed to. First thing he did was pinch the tendons and informed me that there was "sensitivity" and did not go any further. I had the tendons scanned and horse was given the all clear. My vet phoned buyer's vet and I was told they argued over it. Buyer bought the horse anyway. She later had the same vet out to vaccinate said horse and the very same vet complimented the very same horse on his lovely clean legs 😳

My theory was he was running late and simply didn't want to carry out a full vetting. The only thing I wish I'd asked the buyer was how much he'd charged her for the five minutes he spent at my yard.
 
marmalade76 said:
I sold a horse about 20 years ago, vet turned up over an hour later than he was supposed to. First thing he did was pinch the tendons and informed me that there was "sensitivity" and did not go any further. I had the tendons scanned and horse was given the all clear. My vet phoned buyer's vet and I was told they argued over it. Buyer bought the horse anyway. She later had the same vet out to vaccinate said horse and the very same vet complimented the very same horse on his lovely clean legs 😳

My theory was he was running late and simply didn't want to carry out a full vetting. The only thing I wish I'd asked the buyer was how much he'd charged her for the five minutes he spent at my yard
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Wow! Let’s hope things have changed over the last 20 years 😂
 
Kaylum said:
Are they a registered vet?
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Yes. The only reason I’m asking is because the vet has ties to the dealer and I know you should try and get an independent vet but it’s a very small area and there aren’t any vets she hasn’t dealt with over the years. I just can’t imagine a vet ‘lying’ to please the dealer … why waste years of training and risk their reputation to keep one client happy. So am interested if anyone actually has negative stories
 
I know people who have had horses pass vettings which really shouldn't have. One did get their money back from the seller, I believe after starting legal action and with a report from their own vet, the other didn't as it was unlikely the dealer would have ever come up with the money, they finished up with a totally unrideable horse and £1,000's in vet bills.

I also bought one age 2 which passed a 2 stage but by age 4 was diagnosed as a wobbler, I didn't have xrays of the neck done. I'm confident the vet did not overlook anything as the horse seemed normal to me for 2 years until I started riding him. I think it's far more common that the vet would just miss something or perhaps the horse has had joint injections which can cover an underlying problem especially if you don't have xrays taken. Another horse I was interested in passed the 5 stage but had kissing spines on xray with active bone remodelling so this would had passed without the back xrays. It was bucking during the ridden part which it didn't do when I went for the viewing so I was a bit concerned about what was going on.

If the horse has been treated by the vet practice, the vetting vet should disclose this and any relevant issues. I'd be more concerned about the dealer than the vet, are you on any of the dodgy dealer fb pages so you can check them out before proceeding.
 
It happens with a well known dodgy dealer in the north and a vet the dealer "recommends" - it definitely happens. Equally beware when they slip in "oh x practice is my vets so you won't be able to use them" - their vets are usually the most stringent, reputable in the area who will undoubtably fail the dealer's broken down horses
 
nutjob said:
I know people who have had horses pass vettings which really shouldn't have. One did get their money back from the seller, I believe after starting legal action and with a report from their own vet, the other didn't as it was unlikely the dealer would have ever come up with the money, they finished up with a totally unrideable horse and £1,000's in vet bills.

I also bought one age 2 which passed a 2 stage but by age 4 was diagnosed as a wobbler, I didn't have xrays of the neck done. I'm confident the vet did not overlook anything as the horse seemed normal to me for 2 years until I started riding him. I think it's far more common that the vet would just miss something or perhaps the horse has had joint injections which can cover an underlying problem especially if you don't have xrays taken. Another horse I was interested in passed the 5 stage but had kissing spines on xray with active bone remodelling so this would had passed without the back xrays. It was bucking during the ridden part which it didn't do when I went for the viewing so I was a bit concerned about what was going on.

If the horse has been treated by the vet practice, the vetting vet should disclose this and any relevant issues. I'd be more concerned about the dealer than the vet, are you on any of the dodgy dealer fb pages so you can check them out before proceeding.
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Gosh it’s just so difficult isn’t it. If you brought again, would you invest in getting X-rays done or just have the five stage?

I’ve also heard that the vets can sometimes be overly cautious and pedantic etc
 
gallopinghooves said:
Gosh it’s just so difficult isn’t it. If you brought again, would you invest in getting X-rays done or just have the five stage?
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I bought another one in July of last year, yes I did get xrays done, just the neck and the back as the horse was a just backed 4yo, I may have had other joints done if there had been questions raised at the vetting or the horse was older. Another horse I was interested in, the owner didn't want xrays done by an independent vet of my choice although they claimed to have already had them done themselves before buying the horse. I spent about 6 months seriously looking.

My horse who is a wobbler is a total sweety but he's only 6 this year and could live another 20 years and the cost to keep is nearly as much as a ridden horse. This time I really wanted one who would be rideable!

Also, be aware that xrays from the seller may not have the horse's passport or microchip no. on them, often the owners name and horse's stable name. I know someone who had xrays from the seller and they were not the same horse according to their own vet.
 
I can never prove it but the vet I used for the horse I bought from passed him and I had my two seperate vets from two seperate practices state that he should never have passed his vetting once he was diagnosed with all his issues. The inference being that it would have been possible to tell the horse was not right from lack of muscle/top line and watching him move.

I will be convinced to my dying day that the seller knew of the horses considerable problems and persuaded the vet to pass him with monetary gain. Sadly I was not at the vetting. I didn't use my own vets as the horse was too far away.

I don't understand why the horse was visibly lame the first time I rode him at home when he'd flew a vetting only ten days prior and the action he presented that day I rode him at home stayed the same going foward, I.e lame. He was eventually diagnosed with KS, hock, coffin and neck arthritis, had chronic sacro illiac issues and possibly PSD.

And for me to ride him as much as I did the day I viewed him without any displays of pain makes me wonder if he was heavily buted too.
 
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gallopinghooves said:
Gosh it’s just so difficult isn’t it. If you brought again, would you invest in getting X-rays done or just have the five stage?

I’ve also heard that the vets can sometimes be overly cautious and pedantic etc
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My friend is a vet physio.

Shes said that findings that can be seen on X-rays aren't always clinically relevant- meaning that they are not always causing the horse discomfort or affecting their performance.

You could xray, say 10 horses, 6 might show changes, but of those six only one might be in pain as a result.

So just because changes are found doesn't necessarily mean bypassing the horse.
 
Birker2020 said:
My friend is a vet physio.

Shes said that findings that can be seen on X-rays aren't always clinically relevant- meaning that they are not always causing the horse discomfort or affecting their performance.

You could xray, say 10 horses, 6 might show changes, but of those six only one might be in pain as a result.

So just because changes are found doesn't necessarily mean bypassing the horse.
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That sounds sensible. But at least if you x ray you can make an informed choice.
 
I do not understand why a vet would stop during a vetting.

Unless they find something detrimental enough to make it a welfare concern to continue, then why not complete the vetting?

The vet may find 'sensitivity in the tendons' but then find absolutely nothing else detrimental at all. The buyer then may just want to do a deep dive into the tendon concerns before making a decision.

I understood vettings to have a set price, so it seems odd to me that a vet would stop without completing it, even if it turns out the horse is a train wreck within the first few minutes.
 
Remember a vetting will tell you what the vet sees on the day the vetting is carried out. This may be related to past treatment / injuries through for example muscle wasting or scarring etc. Different people also interprete their findings differently. I don’t think properly qualified / experienced people try to mislead but their finding may be misinterpreted or understood.
 
If you use the seller's vet they have to disclose any clinical hx on the horse from my understanding. Normally a senior vet in the practice does the vetting and ensure you have a conversation beforehand to explain exactly what you are wishing to do with the horse in the future.

Find out who the dealer currently uses if you don't wish to use the same vet. Post on a local horsey fb group for recommendations if needs be.

The vet will call you after the vetting and go through their findings. They will just report on what they see in front of them on the day.
 
I got totally shafted by a very well known, elderly (now dead I think) vet who was in the pocket of the dealer I bought my first criollo from, about 15 yrs or so ago. (I was a complete novice then and stupidly relied on the vetting of the dealer recommended vet as I didn't have my own). He agreed with dealer that horse was 6-7 yrs old (the age I was looking for), and otherwise well and sound, passed a full vetting. horse went lame within weeks and was on off lame for years until fully retiring about 6 yrs in. Dentist reckoned horse was at least 10 yrs older than stated, had missing molar also. Horse was covered in scars and very crook, an absolute bottomless well of vet bills. Horse died a pasture pet last year, aged most likely 30+
 
The thread made me think of this vet but I'd like to think there's not many of these around!


Other than that, I'd say sadly horses pass vettings that shouldn't all the time and horses that really should get strict vettings.

I was on a livery yard with someone. She went to see a horse and it failed the vetting, she liked it and decided against vet advice 'it was just stiff'. She got it home and rode it a handful of times as she was extremely nervous, she then declared it lame, I felt the same lameness it came with. Popped him in the field for a few months, sent him to sales livery, about 4 days later he passed a 5 stage vetting and sold. A week later the new owner was ringing her to say it's lame and her vet said it's a long standing issue and threatened taking her to court. She just shrugged her shoulders and said it's passed a 5 stage vetting. Poor new owner!

I don't speak to her now, she previously sold a horse she was terrified of that the new owner had to pts because 'it tried to kill her'. She seemed to wear that as a badge of honor, that she had a horse that dangerous 🙄 Tbf I don't think that one was vetted.

In the first case, it's hard to say if the vet just couldn't see the lameness or if he didn't want to fail a horse from someone getting multiple horses vetted a week (it was when the covid market went bonkers). I know my previous vets, mainly farm and small animal but also do a bit of equine can't see lameness.

Long winded but I don't put a lot of trust in vettings. I think they mean close to nothing. The sales livery was a very well known respected place and the horses are far from cheap, it could make you fall out with the whole industry!
 
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Birker2020 said:
My friend is a vet physio.

Shes said that findings that can be seen on X-rays aren't always clinically relevant- meaning that they are not always causing the horse discomfort or affecting their performance.

You could xray, say 10 horses, 6 might show changes, but of those six only one might be in pain as a result.

So just because changes are found doesn't necessarily mean bypassing the horse.
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I’ve heard this too. Apparently there’s always going to be something …
 
Landcruiser said:
I got totally shafted by a very well known, elderly (now dead I think) vet who was in the pocket of the dealer I bought my first criollo from, about 15 yrs or so ago. (I was a complete novice then and stupidly relied on the vetting of the dealer recommended vet as I didn't have my own). He agreed with dealer that horse was 6-7 yrs old (the age I was looking for), and otherwise well and sound, passed a full vetting. horse went lame within weeks and was on off lame for years until fully retiring about 6 yrs in. Dentist reckoned horse was at least 10 yrs older than stated, had missing molar also. Horse was covered in scars and very crook, an absolute bottomless well of vet bills. Horse died a pasture pet last year, aged most likely 30+
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Oh my goodness that’s terrible. Was there no passport? Agh, sorry you went through that.

Side note, I love Criollos! You don’t see many in the UK!
 
Bellaboo18 said:
The thread made me think of this vet but I'd like to think there's not many of these around!


Other than that, I'd say sadly horses pass vettings that shouldn't all the time and horses that really should get strict vettings.

I was on a livery yard with someone. She went to see a horse and it failed the vetting, she liked it and decided against vet advice 'it was just stiff'. She got it home and rode it a handful of times as she was extremely nervous, she then declared it lame, I felt the same lameness it came with. Popped him in the field for a few months, sent him to sales livery, about 4 days later he passed a 5 stage vetting and sold. A week later the new owner was ringing her to say it's lame and her vet said it's a long standing issue and threatened taking her to court. She just shrugged her shoulders and said it's passed a 5 stage vetting. Poor new owner!

I don't speak to her now, she previously sold a horse she was terrified of that the new owner had to pts because 'it tried to kill her'. She seemed to wear that as a badge of owner, that she had a horse that dangerous 🙄 Tbf I don't think that one was vetted.

In the first case, it's hard to say if the vet just couldn't see the lameness or if he didn't want to fail a horse from someone getting multiple horses vetted a week (it was when the covid market went bonkers). I know my previous vets, mainly farm and small animal but also do a bit of equine can't see lameness.

Long winded but I don't put a lot of trust in vettings. I think they mean close to nothing. The sales livery was a very well known respected place and the horses are far from cheap, it could make you fall out with the whole industry!
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That’s terrible. I don’t understand how people can put money before people’s lives!! Scary how cases like these aren’t that isolated either…

Poor people & poor horses. Thanks for your reply - it’s all helpful albeit scary haha! X
 
A vetting is only valid on the day / hour it is done. There are plenty of stories on her of genuine sellers who've had a horse fail a vetting on one day and a week later pass (not only can the horse be different day to day but needs of buyer also impact 'pass / fail').

'Put shoes on' is a common suggestion to cover up niggles, I've been on a yard where all sorts of warm up and movement / massage was required before a vet arrived for a dealer selling horses that would come out of a stable cold and not look good at all.

Clear cut proof that a vet deliberately lied would be really difficult to obtain - they aren't daft enough to issue invoices labelled 'bribe'
For a regular big volume dealer - even being recommended by the dealer regularly is probably enough to impinge on independence. Who wants to risk loosing 4/5 vettings a month.

I think one thing you can do to reduce the risk is to be there - watch the whole thing yourself - maybe even take a few videos of the ridden or lunge work - then at least you can be sure the vet goes through the motions and anything obvious you can ask about in real time.
 
Birker2020 said:
I can never prove it but the vet I used for the horse I bought from passed him and I had my two seperate vets from two seperate practices state that he should never have passed his vetting once he was diagnosed with all his issues. The inference being that it would have been possible to tell the horse was not right from lack of muscle/top line and watching him move.

I will be convinced to my dying day that the seller knew of the horses considerable problems and persuaded the vet to pass him with monetary gain. Sadly I was not at the vetting. I didn't use my own vets as the horse was too far away.

I don't understand why the horse was visibly lame the first time I rode him at home when he'd flew a vetting only ten days prior and the action he presented that day I rode him at home stayed the same going foward, I.e lame. He was eventually diagnosed with KS, hock, coffin and neck arthritis, had chronic sacro illiac issues and possibly PSD.

And for me to ride him as much as I did the day I viewed him without any displays of pain makes me wonder if he was heavily buted too.
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That’s terrible, sorry you went through that. I imagine he was indeed heavily buted. It’s so scary because even ‘reputable’ dealers can sometimes be dishonest.

Thanks for sharing x
 
sollimum said:
If you use the seller's vet they have to disclose any clinical hx on the horse from my understanding. Normally a senior vet in the practice does the vetting and ensure you have a conversation beforehand to explain exactly what you are wishing to do with the horse in the future.

Find out who the dealer currently uses if you don't wish to use the same vet. Post on a local horsey fb group for recommendations if needs be.

The vet will call you after the vetting and go through their findings. They will just report on what they see in front of them on the day.
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In my case the seller gave me a choice of three vets as I was unfamiliar with the area, I went for the mid range vet on terms of costs.

Each vets asked me the name of the horse and the sellers name in case of conflict if interest before I was able to get a quote.
 
This has been said before but I think the insurance industry has a lot to answer for. If you pay more than about £5K for a horse you can't insure without a vetting. But it's not possible for a vet to give a full and considered opinion on anything because you'll end up with the entire horse covered in insurance exclusions. If I was a vet I don't think I would want to do vettings! The whole system is unfit for purpose but IMO it's not the vets who are to blame.
 
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