Does riding need to be so complicated?

meardsall_millie

meardsall_millie

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This is obviously relating to the increasing number of technical discussions rumbling along at the moment.

Does riding need to be so complicated?

Without wishing to sound big-headed, I'm an intelligent person, I hold a responsible and well paid job. I've ridden for many, many years and have been lucky enough to ride some super horses and receive really good quality instruction. I have equine-related qualifications and my horses go pretty nicely and can generally manage to stay in a 40 x 20 arena and can carry out (pretty much) the movements required in a dressage test at the right place and in the right pace.

NEVER, though, have I received instruction to the amount of detail that's demonstrated on *those* threads. Quite honestly, I gave up reading because my brain was haddled!

Now I do accept that riding is a bit more in depth than 'sit, pull and kick' (although does it need to be? ;) ) and I realise that some people will always over-analyse, however if I was lacking some confidence in my abilities, I would read those comments and run a mile thinking I would never be worthy of sitting on a horse!

Is it all getting unnecessarily complicated? What do others think?

A
 
No it really doesnt need to be that complicated. Yes when we are doing things "correctly" we probably are engaging multiple cores, etc etc, but do we need to be that aware of it?!, no, I think not...repeating the right posture, the aids we should be using, etc will train the horse to be more responsive, and to start to read the signals we start to give when we're change posture for certain movements and make them more reactive, which surely is the reason why we train with repetition?

I'm not sure I could give the same aid every time if I was concentrating on multiple teeny changes for each movement, and indeed, I'm not sure many top riders would either, as the tiniest muscle stiffness, twitch etc, would cause all sorts of chaos ;)
 
A bit of the old hands on "you sit on this bit when you want to go that way" "lift up from here", "tuck this bit in" "squash my hand with that bit, yes that's the muscles I want you to feel working" right from being a kid onwards to help people understand without having to get all technical works wonders in the "Oh yes of course" reaction that becomes instinctive when you know what is required. Of course it's all wildly un-PC nowadays to do so:(
 
No it doesnt. Some of the detail that is gone into quite frankly makes my eyes water. Although I am a happy hacker with a 20 year old bombproof cob, I have ridden to a reasonable dressage standard and have done a fair bit of showing as well and my daughter rides to a very good standard. Neither of us have sat and discussed the finer details of some of the things that get discussed on here.

I do feel each to their own. I enjoy my riding for what it is - relaxation and an escape from a very high powered and demanding career, and agree with the OP.
 
If I thought of all of my different cores, angles, activations, drops and each individual muscle at all times, I wouldn't ever get out of halt!

Thankfully my horses are used to my more slapdash approach and understand what I mean and want most of the time :)
 
This is a question I've pondered quite a bit since I started to learn two years ago. At one level it's the simplest thing ever but when you break it down to all the little movements and actions it begins to sound more and more complex.
Part of the difficulty stems from how we communicate the How of riding. People learn differently so different explanations are necessary in order to explain. I'm particularly aware of this as I'm trying to help a friend ride better so I have to cast about for ways to explain to her how it should feel and what she ought to be doing.
When I first started I read lots about the how to and the what not to do. I though that there would be the 'one' way but ended up confused because of all the different explanations and methods. In the end I realised that there are a few key skills to acquire first and then the other bits start to fall into place.
As I've progressed I'm more aware of what various body parts are doing and make the corrections required. I'm not convinced however that the starting point, for teaching adults in particular, is right.
However I can only relate this to my experience so I could be wrong :o :)
 
Forget riding, nothing on this planet needs to be explained in such a complex fashion! If I sent in reports written in that manner, my clients would sack me and my business would fold. And I work as a scientist (although people doing research might disagree with that). It's the most ludicrous thing I've read in a long time, and that's saying something!
 
Hooray for the OP!! As an aside DoD do you know anywhere that still offers old fashioned non-PC lessons. Could do with being pulled into shape without having to write an essay first!!
 
I think discussion about how we ride, and how different things change the results, is really important. I'm a massive nerd, and will read pretty much anything in my pursuit for knowledge. My sister and I have quite long and relatively intelligent discussions about what we're told and what we read compared to what we do.

But I think the key is to try and give knowledge in the simplest way possible. A lot of what has been ridden could be simplified and explained in a way that's more coherent and then, although stupendously detailed, it would be a more interesting read...

(simple isn't easy btw, I got pulled up on saying 'simple' a few weeks ago for a concept that wasn't simple- the explanation was hellish but was in the simplest possible terms...)
 
TrasaM, one of the most useful things a trainer has ever said to me is that all they are doing is giving me tools to put in the box. Some will work on some horses, some will work on others, some I may never need again, but I have them now to try.

I think one of the most fundemental things riding schoolmasters (or I suppose regularly under good instruction is what I really mean) teaches you is when you're asking the right question in the right way and you need to wait for the horse to figure out the right answer, and when you're asking the wrong thing or in the wrong way and you need to change something. It's probably the most useful skill I've learnt.
 
No it does not ,but it does help to be self aware about how your body works.
But all the great trainers I have worked with are all teaching when it all boils down the same thing , Ride the horse forwards and keep it straight .
 
As per the rather amusing image in one of those threads if you can't simplify it you don't understand it properly ;)

Although you can over analyse and go in to lots of detail it's often not required. Ultimately it's all about feel and lots of subconscious muscle movements. A good instructor can simply things and all that will be needed is an instruction like 'roll your shoulders' or 'try to make your belly button touch your spine' random but they do the job in various circumstances and a lot more understandable than 'engage your lower core muscles and raise your diaphragm' ;) ;)
 
SpottedCat said:
TrasaM, one of the most useful things a trainer has ever said to me is that all they are doing is giving me tools to put in the box. Some will work on some horses, some will work on others, some I may never need again, but I have them now to try.

I think one of the most fundemental things riding schoolmasters (or I suppose regularly under good instruction is what I really mean) teaches you is when you're asking the right question in the right way and you need to wait for the horse to figure out the right answer, and when you're asking the wrong thing or in the wrong way and you need to change something. It's probably the most useful skill I've learnt.
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Agree. I kept on with by BHS instructor for this reason. I needed the tools in my box. I don't necessarily agree with what I'm being taught but it is effective on the horses I'm being taught on. My particular preference is for French classical riding and this I find is the most simple way of riding and suits my particular ethos with regards to horses and what I believe to be right. Meanwhile when I hack out on poorly schooled horses I have the voice of my RI in my head when I encounter various problems or challenges.
 
Santa_Claus said:
I would suggest you go brush up on recent leg yield advice ;)
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Ha ha I just did and thought hmmm that's what my instructor gets me to do (spiral in and out) and I've never found it a problem to get my 4yr old to do it so therefore reading a few more replies I concluded I am just doing it wrong/don't know what I am doing :o.
 
Whoa at the LY thread - I always thought leg yield was something that was fairly simple, my nag seems to understand my half baked aids at least! :D

I think thats the problem with many people (not just horsey people) by making something sound complicated they are trying to make themselves sound more knowledgable and superior ime. Best advice I had in an SJ warm up from a pro was 'when in doubt, kick pull and shout' that will generally get you out of most sticky situations in some manner at least! :D
 
Definitely not. I actually had this discussion with my flat instructor on Saturday. My reactions are no longer instinctive - when horse does something, I'm then trying to remember everything I've been told that I should be doing at that point but struggle mentally to select the right one for this situation/this instructor/this horse. It means I now don't react in time/react wrongly/try several reactions in a row :eek:!

It's a disaster! :mad:

I absolutely have to stop over-analysing things when encountering schooling issues. My old instincts were the "right" ones and I have to get back to that.

I'm going to make a concerted effort to only read about (technical) methods that go along with what my flat (and jumping as thankfully they are both on the same page) instructors teach. This is going to be really hard for me as I am hungry for knowledge and always trying to learn more. But it's worth a try and I owe it to my surprisingly talented horse who has been hiding his dressage skills under a bushel due to my poor riding.
 
Santa_Claus said:
No no keep reading make sure you read the entire thread ;)
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Ok I have done now. (Sits with head in hands and cries. Was bad enough having one useless post childbearing core, now I find I have multiples of the blasted things:confused::eek:).

Stencilface said:
Whoa at the LY thread - I always thought leg yield was something that was fairly simple, my nag seems to understand my half baked aids at least! :D
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Ha ha well I have to agree - its about the only lateral thingymy I thought I understood and now, its all on its head :o
 
I had no trouble understanding that thread.

I also think a lot of people's horse troubles come from communication fails because the rider asks for one thing and horse doesn't do it or does something else, and rider blames horse, saying it's "stubborn" (my absolute least favourite word ever used in a horsemanship context, by the way). The real problem was the rider blocked the movement they were asking for with another part of their body, but didn't know they were doing it. Some horses are real saints and will try no matter what, others just say, "Nah, can't be bothered if you can't," and others might freak out at the contradictory aids. So I think that awareness of your seat/balance/alignment etc. is important if you want to achieve lightness and more complex movements. Or if you're riding my horse who just won't go if you're in her way. If you want to bimble around on hacks, it's probably less important, depending on the horse of course.

I have found that when I think about riding in the more complicated way, as described by some of the posters in that leg yield thread, it makes a huge difference in how my horse goes. By that, I mean, if I think about how my balance, where my seat is, my weight is, how I'm aligned, etc. effects how the horse is going in each instant, then I can get the horse going much lighter, much more impulsive, more more uphill and powerful. The trouble is, it's hard bloody work, mentally as well as physically, so I don't always think about so consequently my horse and I spend a lot of our time slumming around, being a bit rubbish.

I suppose one could potentially describe my horse as "stubborn," but in reality, she is just a good teacher and will calmly not go or obey the aid if the rider is blocking the movement or about to fall off.
 
BeckyD said:
Definitely not. I actually had this discussion with my flat instructor on Saturday. My reactions are no longer instinctive - when horse does something, I'm then trying to remember everything I've been told that I should be doing at that point but struggle mentally to select the right one for this situation/this instructor/this horse. It means I now don't react in time/react wrongly/try several reactions in a row :eek:!

It's a disaster! :mad:

I absolutely have to stop over-analysing things when encountering schooling issues. My old instincts were the "right" ones and I have to get back to that.

I'm going to make a concerted effort to only read about (technical) methods that go along with what my flat (and jumping as thankfully they are both on the same page) instructors teach. This is going to be really hard for me as I am hungry for knowledge and always trying to learn more. But it's worth a try and I owe it to my surprisingly talented horse who has been hiding his dressage skills under a bushel due to my poor riding.
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Becky, this is exactly what I went through. I over complicated things and tried too hard. The harder I tried the worse it got. When I first started to learn to canter I did ok, to the point where RI asked if I'd done it before. Then I started to read up and get better informed and it all went to pot. In the end I made the same decision as you. Keep it simple, listen to one set of advice and don't over think it.
 
In summary; no, riding does NOT have to be so complicated. The degree of complexity increases as you advance/improve, but (to use an analogy) it's no good trying to teach advanced maths by launching into calculus before one has mastered basic arithmetic. And even if you DO the objective, surely, is to explain things as SIMPLY as possible for maximum clarity.
The first time you get on a horse it's a challenge to keep the stirrups on the ball of your foot and keep your hands remotely still, never mind apply one leg on or behind the girth or have control of your weight. Who would've got on a horse a second time if confronted with the complexity of instruction in that thread?
 
I can remember what post it was in but I sort of made a similar comment. I never had lessons years ago and just went out and competed and seemed to do okay.

I think it is important as Goldenstar (hope right poster) says to know what your body is doing and what effect it may be having - some lunge lessons showed me how I slip to the outside and I realised how that affects the horse.
 
SpottedCat said:
, one of the most useful things a trainer has ever said to me is that all they are doing is giving me tools to put in the box. Some will work on some horses, some will work on others, some I may never need again, but I have them now to try.

.
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^^ This.

And OP no it doesn't. I have personally changed my riding quite drastically over the past few years, but not due to indepth thoughts, but through sheer deterimation to do better using said 'tools' above.
 
I think, as with all things, it can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. That not only applies to riding but to the general management/keeping of our horses.

FWIW while the majority of it was waaaay over my head I did find the thread interesting. I'm a horse geek with the "amazing" ability to over analyse everything and ask 101 questions at all times about everything horse related; it's how I learn.

That thread doesn't make me fear that I'll never LY again and/or have been doing it wrong my whole life but that there is more than one way to skin a cat and there is ALWAYS scope to learn and room for improvement.

Also a "baa" to Lolo's reply.

I think I get the meaning behind this thread (i.e. how easy it would be to fall victim to paralaysis by over analysis) but some replies do read like they are having a go at one of the posters in the LY thread. Horses for courses, live and let live and all that jazz if it's not your thing.
 
I actually think riding is quite complicated as so many varying factors and influences etc but it can be explained quite simply and it can be broken down.

But I would say its the same with any sport. When I first learnt to play rugby I was taught only the concept of run forwards, pass backwards. As the years go on the level of intracacy rises along with your knowledge.

I have no problem with detail. I do have a problem when it is written like a Mary Wanless book.
 
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