Does riding need to be so complicated?

PapaFrita said:
It is perfectly possible to do a half halt, ride leg yield and half pass (flying changes, turn on haunches, turn on the forehand, etc, etc) and NOT be at psg level. Therefore it should be (and is) perfectly possible to explain the mechanics in language that is accessible to the less-than-PSG rider.
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In the context I used my words inIstatedif one is riding/competing atteh PSG level they generally know by then just where their talent lays or not.

Now...there is no language barrier or issue with my explaination over here...again I think the symatics areover geography/terms usedby differning countries...I do not use the loobut the bathroom sort of things....and is perfectly understood in any clinic I have done here as well.

The language of angles/cores/hand/seat/back that I use seemstobe known in countries likeGermany/Sweden/Canada/US....but that does not mean it is the same forsay...UK/Holland/France/otherplaces.....that is why I asked for patience while I figure your terms out

I have found from speaking with other competitors/coaches..it is when the rider gets to the PSG level or higher...most riders know by then if they have what it takes to move on competitvely or not....especially if they are honest with themslf
 
Cool, were you abroad as a junior then? I didn't think Canada had any advanced events?

We don't have hunter/jumper over here, what height is GP for that sport?
 
Hmmm I would have thought that someone riding at PSG would at least not have a horse that is in front of the vertical and not even remotely straight?

I suspect that there are people on this board who have ridden at higher levels than your good self tbh.

It is NOT cores (plural) but Core (singular), the core is the centre of the body ergo you cannot have more than one.

And OP, no riding does not need to be complicated to this extent, especially as simple an exercise as LG on a circle, it is a VERY basic movement and one I use when first teaching lateral movements to a young horse.
 
SpottedCat said:
Cool, were you abroad as a junior then? I didn't think Canada had any advanced events?

We don't have hunter/jumper over here, what height is GP for that sport?
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Well...I would not call it abroad really.....Canadians were forced to show state side for most advance levels..heck even our intermediate comps. were limited..another factor at the time formenot to contiue since this cost $$$ and there was no return prizemoney...atleastwith the H/J you had a chance to win $$$

I did not get to go "abroad" until my early 20's

modified or starter GP classes are under the 1.25 and must be classified as such due to height.....Grand Prix averages are generally 1.45/higher
 
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Can someone point me to a thread where it all gets technical, please?

Personally I think that getting technical gets in the way of instinct and feel. The automatic adjustments you make without even thinking...
 
Wagtail said:
Can someone point me to a thread where it all gets technical, please?

Personally I think that getting technical gets in the way of instinct and feel. The automatic adjustments you make without even thinking...
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Absolutely, nothing, no matter how many books you read or competitions you attend, that can take the place of instinct and feel.
 
I have found since I was a WP last year and now I have a new instructor, riding is a lot more complicated.

Maybe more so because I have become aware of how very subtle changes in my position or way of holding myself changes my horse's way of going dramatically.

Before I was a WP I despise that type of tuition because I just wanted to 'get on with it', but now I feel the instant benefits its worth it. It's very hard work every time we start something new - first I have to get my head round how doing xyz effects the horse, then constantly remind myself to do it instead of my old way, but it gradually falls into place and then it becomes habit and I don't need to think about it anymore.

Today for example, we simply worked on me not letting my inside hand drift across the horse. By keeping my hand out, it stopped horse leaning into the rein, also helped me keep my inside shoulder back which improved my leg position ect. Makes my head hurt to think about it, but the instant I did it, my horse went in a way which normally takes me 40 minutes to achieve!

So for me it's complicated to begin with, but then it becomes habit and horse is instantly better.
 
Wagtail said:
Can someone point me to a thread where it all gets technical, please?

Personally I think that getting technical gets in the way of instinct and feel. The automatic adjustments you make without even thinking...
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I was about to say that!! I do not by any stretch of the imagination call myself a good rider, but I have been well trained, so I would class myself as educated, but physically incompetent. I am able to ride and improve the advanced movements - just with no style or finesse WHATSOEVER! I ride far better when I'm not thinking about what I'm doing. As soon as I start analysing/correcting/thinking too much - it all goes to pot.
 
Amaranta said:
Hmmm I would have thought that someone riding at PSG would at least not have a horse that is in front of the vertical and not even remotely straight?

And did I not say that this video showed it allon a unfit horse that was evading....did I not say it was noticale in the downward transition.....atraining videodoes not have any use if allonesee is the perfection...it is the studying of evasions and the ride out that educates....and that is what the series of videos I had did...again...if people thought they weregoing tosee perfection when I stateda training videoworking on evasions did they assume the horse would not show them:confused:

I suspect that there are people on this board who have ridden at higher levels than your good self tbh.

And I do not doubt it...why would I....there are probably people here who top pros too...and who have done many things I have better and worse....what is the point of this since it is simply the obvious being stated:confused:....again...I am not here to change the world of riding or convince anyone they need to ride in the same system I am trained in nor did I illudethat not riding in the same system meant a person could not ride or was crap for it...Iamhere to share ideas....discuss differencesand play...it seems tomeI have stepped on toes of some....is there a reason...I do not think I am pushing my views on anyone.....so WTH is the issue here

oh...and in no way did I say I was all that and a bag of chips....horses humbe the best...I built that bridge and got over myself loooong ago

It is NOT cores (plural) but Core (singular), the core is the centre of the body ergo you cannot have more than one.

to you maybe...but in the german system of training the rider(which is not the same as training the horse) it is and has been the core when used as a single and cores when used as a group and indivdual as use them

And OP, no riding does not need to be complicated to this extent, especially as simple an exercise as LG on a circle, it is a VERY basic movement and one I use when first teaching lateral movements to a young horse.
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Leg yeilds is a simple exerscieand is on the lowestlevel of the training scale for both horse and riderjust asthe SI/HP/Spiral/Volte/15 or 20 m.circles

But are you telling me it is that simple for the one tempo changes...the piaffe..the passage.....it is that easy for the rider to get the rythym to match the tempo/canter pirrottes...because I personally know several Olympic riders and their trainers who would disagree it was easy tolearn...I wonder what they are doing so wrong then and yet winning on the way up:confused:
 
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nieghham said:
Leg yeilds is a simple exerscieand is on the lowestlevel of the training scale for both horse and riderjust asthe SI/HP/Spiral/Volte/15 or 20 m.circles

But are you telling me it is that simple for the one tempo changes...the piaffe..the passage.....it is that easy for the rider to get the rythym to match the tempo/canter pirrottes...because I personally know several Olympic riders and their trainers who would disagree it was easy tolearn...I wonder what they are doing so wrong then and yet winning on the way up:confused:
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Don't put words in my mouth, read my post again.

But as you asked, having trained a horse to piaffe and passage I can confirm that of course it is not as simple as training a leg yield, but by the time your horse has reached that level of schooling it comes more simply, which is very different from saying it is easy.
 
Wagtail said:
Can someone point me to a thread where it all gets technical, please?

Personally I think that getting technical gets in the way of instinct and feel. The automatic adjustments you make without even thinking...
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Wait...so you are saying that theory...the technical of riding...is not needed for a rider to get the practical experience of mechanical

You do not need any understanding of theory just to ride..I will agree to that as there are many hack riders out there who could care less about theory....IMHO..it is extremely important to the education of the competitive rider

You need the technical of theory to understand the mechanical of the body and just exactly what it is you are feeling so a rider can learn say...the technical of timeing the aid to the hoof fall and be able to feel through the body (mechanical) and indentify timing through such feel

And if anyone tells me about the timing of aids not being important and that there actually is no reason to know this.....I will be more than happy to post paragraph after paragra[h from books of yesterday by masters right up to the one WAZ wrote himself including all that I am speaking of in regards to this timing of aids

really...and here all those books by the masters were useless....who knew
 
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Oh and regarding the young horse who was unfit and evading, perhaps it would have been good horsemanship in that case to make sure that he was capable of what you were asking?

Straightness is one of the most basic of requirements before asking anything more complicated, but, of course, a horse cannot be straight when the rider is not.
 
Wow quite a post! I haven't read the leg yield post mind. I do think theory is important, especially as an instructor but also to reinforce what you feel to be correct. It also gives all of us (who don't have a Carl watching us ride everyday to teach us feel), a bit of a boost. Often what is correct is at odds to what feels instinctive, you would be wrong to think otherwise IMO. For instance it may feel correct to cross the inside rein over the horse's neck if the horse falls in, but when you understand the mechanics behind the horse's movement you realise this only makes things worse and you need to open the inside rein and keep your weight to the inside, not the outside. Humans by nature rely on their hands, and it takes immense effort to ride with better and more refined hand aids, this is totally at odds to what feels natural and beginners often want to just "grab" the reins.

I don't think you should be thinking about all this theory whilst riding! You should understand it (to whatever degree you wish to) off the horse. You should be present in the moment when you ride, ideally always with eyes on the ground, but perhaps with particular attention paid to known faults which may require some additional "brain ache" so to speak to overcome initially!
 
I read a lovely quote (sadly can't remember by who) which said riding is simple it's just not easy.
When you watch some of the wonderful partnerships it really does look simple - but I've ridden enought to know it is definitely not!!
 
nieghham said:
Wait...so you are saying that theory...the technical of riding...is not needed for a rider to get the practical experience of mechanical

You do not need any understanding of theory just to ride..I will agree to that as there are many hack riders out there who could care less about theory....IMHO..it is extremely important to the education of the competitive rider

You need the technical of theory to understand the mechanical of the body and just exactly what it is you are feeling so a rider can learn say...the technical of timeing the aid to the hoof fall and be able to feel through the body (mechanical) and indentify timing through such feel

And if anyone tells me about the timing of aids not being important and that there actually is no reason to know this.....I will be more than happy to post paragraph after paragra[h from books of yesterday by masters right up to the one WAZ wrote himself including all that I am speaking of in regards to this timing of aids

really...and here all those books by the masters were useless....who knew
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Some people need theory, other do it naturally. It is the same with every discipline. I am not talking about happy hackers, I am talking about riders who know instinctively what minute adjustments to make to correct their horse without having to analyse and think about it.
 
nieghham said:
Wait...so you are saying that theory...the technical of riding...is not needed for a rider to get the practical experience of mechanical

You do not need any understanding of theory just to ride..I will agree to that as there are many hack riders out there who could care less about theory....IMHO..it is extremely important to the education of the competitive rider

You need the technical of theory to understand the mechanical of the body and just exactly what it is you are feeling so a rider can learn say...the technical of timeing the aid to the hoof fall and be able to feel through the body (mechanical) and indentify timing through such feel

And if anyone tells me about the timing of aids not being important and that there actually is no reason to know this.....I will be more than happy to post paragraph after paragra[h from books of yesterday by masters right up to the one WAZ wrote himself including all that I am speaking of in regards to this timing of aids

really...and here all those books by the masters were useless....who knew
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I repeat, you can quote all the books in the world, but instinct and feel beat technical knowledge every time. Some people have it, others have to read books, sadly for them you cannot 'learn' instinct but you can develop feel as long as the trainer does not try to baffle you with science.
 
Amaranta said:
I repeat, you can quote all the books in the world, but instinct and feel beat technical knowledge every time. Some people have it, others have to read books, sadly for them you cannot 'learn' instinct but you can develop feel as long as the trainer does not try to baffle you with science.
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Thank you for being so eloquent!
 
Amaranta said:
Oh and regarding the young horse who was unfit and evading, perhaps it would have been good horsemanship in that case to make sure that he was capable of what you were asking?

Straightness is one of the most basic of requirements before asking anything more complicated, but, of course, a horse cannot be straight when the rider is not.
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He is not young nor is he inexperienced...already has an international record by then...he is condition fit of the lung....what is being redeveloped after timeoff is the connection over the topline and the topline itself....what he is partlyresisiting is having to work harder...if he put as much effort at the time into just doing what was asked ver evading it would have been perfect....but when has any horse ever gone thier whole life riding perfect even when they are experienced...in fact..it is my opinion that the more experienced the horse...the more subtle but harder the evasion is to ride

Again...never said it was perfect....never said the rider I had on the horse was perfect....never even illuded to that in fact.
*shrugs shoulder*...This video should actually be encouraging to others who for some reason beleive a trained horse is never bad or on the forehand or crooked or that all top riders ride perfect everyday...this is simply not true...most do not see these rides are all....horses are not pefect no matter how much training they have or self carraige they've developed
 
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An example of how theory can make something unnecesarily complicated is when performing a flying change. Theory, rightly says, you should apply the aid change at the moment of suspension. That can make students think OMG how do I know when that is? And become overly preoccupied with the horse's foot fall. When really, it is just natural to apply the aid at the moment of suspension! It is the EASIEST time to do it. Those doubters, just TRY and apply the aid at the wrong footfall. It is very hard to do!
 
Amaranta said:
I repeat, you can quote all the books in the world, but instinct and feel beat technical knowledge every time. Some people have it, others have to read books, sadly for them you cannot 'learn' instinct but you can develop feel as long as the trainer does not try to baffle you with science.
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But are you saying that timing of the aids is not important....are you saying not understanding exactly what your feeling does not matter...are you saying that connecting the theory to the mechanical is not important to the movement being trained to horse/rider

A book will not teach you how to feel the bounce of the horse through them moving their body...we have already established that and I agree that you either follow the horse or bounce

But.... to me if you have no theory you have no idea what to do with the feel or have any idea of exactly what it is your feeling to work on the timing...to know how the wither lifts and bounces in the collected trot gauging if the bounce beat is clean or not...to feel an incorrect drop in the hips/back to feel the poll and how to manipulate it

IMO...Theory is there to understand what you feel and the reasons behind it and the actions taken....if one over thinks theory or never has any practical application skill to back up the rider than they are missing alot ofimprtant information
 
Wagtail said:
An example of how theory can make something unnecesarily complicated is when performing a flying change. Theory, rightly says, you should apply the aid change at the moment of suspension. That can make students think OMG how do I know when that is? And become overly preoccupied with the horse's foot fall. When really, it is just natural to apply the aid at the moment of suspension! It is the EASIEST time to do it. Those doubters, just TRY and apply the aid at the wrong footfall. It is very hard to do!
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This is a rider issue then...over thinking the threory...simply because some do this deos not mean theory is complicatedor hard...just that they are over thinking the mechanical instead of allowing the two to come together for correct riding...soon...the rider is riding the theory/practical together without having to think jus tlike when anyone is learning something new...time and experience allows it to just happen as needed...until then. again JMO..technical and mechanical need to be taught in such a way the rider does not get stuck is all
 
nieghham said:
He is not young nor is he inexperienced...already has an international record by then...he is condition fit of the lung....what is being redeveloped after timeoff is the connection over the topline and the topline itself....what he is partlyresisiting is having to work harder...if he put as much effort at the time into just doing what was asked ver evading it would have been perfect....but when has any horse ever gone thier whole life riding perfect even when they are experienced...in fact..it is my opinion that the more experienced the horse...the more subtle but harder the evasion is to ride

I did not see evasion, I saw a horse who was out of balance, slightly hollow, in front of the vertical and most definitely not straight, hence my mistaking him for a young horse. I am surprised that he has competed internationally tbh.

Again...never said it was perfect....never said the rider I had on the horse was perfect....never even illuded to that in fact.
*shrugs shoulder*...This video should actually be encouraging to others who for some reason beleive a trained horse is never bad or on the forehand or crooked or that all top riders ride perfect everyday...this is simply not true...most do not see these rides are all....horses are not pefect no matter how much training they have or self carraige they've developed

Of course even trained horses have bad days, however, they do not have bad days by reverting to looking like a young green horse, because they are generally at peak fitness, their bad days tend to include 'airs above ground'
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Unfortunately you have come across as more than a little patronising, assuming people on here know nothing. You could not be further from the truth.
 
Wagtail said:
Some people need theory, other do it naturally. It is the same with every discipline. I am not talking about happy hackers, I am talking about riders who know instinctively what minute adjustments to make to correct their horse without having to analyse and think about it.
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So riders know naturally how to get a piaffe/pirroette/passage and can feel any and all incorrect placments of hoof/back/whatever making adjustments naturally to a movment they have never ridden so they can substain it...I wish I had been that good....would have saved me some head banging with that learning curve
 
Amaranta said:
Unfortunately you have come across as more than a little patronising, assuming people on here know nothing. You could not be further from the truth.
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oooo...then for that I apologise....that is not my inentions at all....I aimtorespect and read all posts without skimming....I believe all people have the right for an opinion whether I agree or not but I will read the posts with an open mind over slamming it close and will happily discuss/debate/share with those who do the same like horse people

most people who have communicated with me in type say I talk the same way yetwhen in person they realize in no way am I rude/condensending/judgemental...the infliction of emotion is lost

I am communicating like we are sitting in a group of other riders talking....and I most certainly did not say I thought people knew nothing...I said we have differing systems/methods/techniques and would love to discuss/share here

I have several times stated I am not all that and a bag of empty chips...my way is not the only way not is it the correct way for everyone/ect trulymeaning it and nowhere do I beleive I have stated I was right about anything soooo.....


I do not know what more I can do then that other than to accept not all members will accept it if others find they can not since as with any forum...such is life....what I will do....is not bother those who seem to have an issue with me/my posts/articualion or communication skills...mental ignore works well and I will use it.....I kindly suggest those who have issues with me do the same
 
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It doesn't need to be, but we all select the type of trainer and regime which suits ourselves. I like stuff which I don't understand, I may not even try to but appreciate someone taking the time to write it all out.
 
Oh I agree we have had livery's that drove us insane for over analysing every tiny little detail- "oh she looked at me this way she now needs this in her food an this when I ride for this long and blah blah blah"

It's like jeez just get a grip and just ride the thing, so over thinking everything, the horse needs more than anything just someone who's just gonna get on and ride it!!!

We've currently got in a little 13.2hh pc pony in as it bucks its little jockey and you know what it is refreshing to get on something that isn't all posh and analysed, it's just a fuzzy little new forest cross and it literally does what it's asked when its asked - simple!!!! Kick- walk, kick- trot, kick- canter, pull - stop, pull one rein- turn, pull the other- turn!!!! Nothing fancy, no 'weight changes' or 'carry himself' just a pony trotting alog happy as larry Loose Reins no 'out line' or impulsion' simple!!!!

It's just great fun and takes me back to the good old days where the only thing mattered was staying on and going fast!!! and your pony had a blast at the same time!!!

Sometimes you can get carried away with all the complicated little details and forget about the basics and the simple things!!!
 
nieghham said:
In the context I used my words inIstatedif one is riding/competing atteh PSG level they generally know by then just where their talent lays or not.

Now...there is no language barrier or issue with my explaination over here...again I think the symatics areover geography/terms usedby differning countries...I do not use the loobut the bathroom sort of things....and is perfectly understood in any clinic I have done here as well.

The language of angles/cores/hand/seat/back that I use seemstobe known in countries likeGermany/Sweden/Canada/US....but that does not mean it is the same forsay...UK/Holland/France/otherplaces.....that is why I asked for patience while I figure your terms out

I have found from speaking with other competitors/coaches..it is when the rider gets to the PSG level or higher...most riders know by then if they have what it takes to move on competitvely or not....especially if they are honest with themslf
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I still don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that if I rode at PSG I would understand, or that clearly I will never ride at PSG because I don't understand....
A doctor is able to converse with other doctors in technical terminology and yet they are also able to put it in simple terms for the rest of us who do not have medical degrees. I don't see why you find it impossible/undesirable/unnecessary to use layman's terms, especially when talking about exercises such as LY/HP/SI that are NOT rocket science.
 
I have just realised we are talking about two separate videos here, I am referring to the showjumping video, you must be referring to the flat work ones, fwiw if the horse in the flatwork videos was going forward properly (especially in the lateral moves) then many of the evasions would be solved. As it is, he is often on the forehand and the hind leg rarely follows through. I did see some evasion in the contact but this is because he is not properly through.

I would just like to add that, in my opinion, if he was unfit, it was perhaps a little unfair to ask him for such an advanced outline, through doing that, you sacrificed forward movement.

One of our greatest riders, Carl Hester, rarely puts his horses in 'competition' outline at home btw.
 
PapaFrita said:
I still don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that if I rode at PSG I would understand, or that clearly I will never ride at PSG because I don't understand....
.
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No...I am saying that a competitive rider....once they hve reached that level after putting in their best of their best of the absolute best effort on different horses of quality that they know...a personal voice inside our body the one that tells us teh truth whether we want it or not will say ......you have reach the level where you will move on a bit more but you will not be Olympic material no matter the horse....you are missing the final ingredient of "it" that makes a top competitor the top

We all have dreams...but there are people who no matter how hard they try/train....will never be good enough for the bigBIG time...and it is at the PSG level alot of riders begin to know....others it is stamped on their foreheads...my left an impression
 
The "bag of chips" reference is lost, btw. They call them crisps here. :)

Although that does not stop me from using the phrase as part of my continuing attempt to export Canadian-ness.
 
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