Does riding need to be so complicated?

[Baggybreeches]

I have just realised we are talking about two separate videos here, I am referring to the showjumping video, you must be referring to the flat work ones, fwiw if the horse in the flatwork videos was going forward properly (especially in the lateral moves) then many of the evasions would be solved. As it is, he is often on the forehand and the hind leg rarely follows through. I did see some evasion in the contact but this is because he is not properly through.

I watched two of the flatwork videos and saw the same things you did, which is what made me question the poster about being paid for that type of training.
The horse was not remotely moving forwards at any time, without being forward he can't be straight, if he isn't straight he can't balanced, if he isn't balanced he can't work properly through his back and neck and everything you get will be false and forced.
I have no idea who nieghham is or what their qualifications or achievements are, but the fact remains the videos chosen do not illustrate anything other than a horse (fit or otherwise) being ALLOWED to go in a counter productive by a rider who looks out of balance (but maybe she is concentrating on her cores ). Sorry nieghham you can't excuse a horse being allowed to go like that if it is allegedly an educated one.

 

[nieghham]

I have just realised we are talking about two separate videos here, I am referring to the showjumping video, you must be referring to the flat work ones, fwiw if the horse in the flatwork videos was going forward properly (especially in the lateral moves) then many of the evasions would be solved. As it is, he is often on the forehand and the hind leg rarely follows through. I did see some evasion in the contact but this is because he is not properly through.

I would just like to add that, in my opinion, if he was unfit, it was perhaps a little unfair to ask him for such an advanced outline, through doing that, you sacrificed forward movement.

One of our greatest riders, Carl Hester, rarely puts his horses in 'competition' outline at home btw.

We were not actually asking for the outline...asI mentioned....I find the more the horse knows...the more ways to make the subtle evasions of their choice ...he wanted to go and have none of long'n'low for a bit...this flat video series (some of which are no longer on youtube) that explained the whole proces of getting them to lift the shoulder and relax

The jumping...which video do you look at....99% of all my videos/pictures were destroyed in a house fire...the only things I have left are what others taped for me and is on youtube.

In the jumping I do have several first timers on him even in the ring....if the fence is low with the exception of a few classes I did or the larger x country events.....it is first time riders in the ring or at home nervous students needing a schoolmaster to take them around
...or...some horses are not even mine or my students...I will fill in for a friend who has a "fun" barn and teach teh lessons according to that....some are sent tome to critique and others are being lent a hand while finding them a permanant coach
The awful ones of me in the arena are like my personal journel with my hip and the healing progress/use as timewent on...they were amonth before the show....sigh...it was actually getting over the grids physically that had me mentally thinking I was healed....wrong!!

I have only two GP classes left and they are being worked on right now to save the quality of the film and hope to getthem back up

This here is me afew years ago after what was "suppose" to be my last hip operation(took 4 more)...I did lowlowlow as pain was a factor...unfortunatley I could not walk for three days after these easy courses...it was then I decided I needed professional riders for my horses untilI fully healed

Here I am trying my new hip out at one of our indoor shows....these are the warm up classes....I missed the rest of the show as I was unhappily unable to bend the hip at all...you can actually see it interfering with the horse and my alignment/supplenss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCHz_8tjdew&feature=share&list=UUVQg7BQ8JAkHnBEWXbGwegg

I amreally hoping three years is fricking long enough too...I have this boys babies to get out so they have a show record like he has.

 

[ihatework]

I'm afraid none of this adds up to me.
'International Horses' 'Riding at GP' etc etc etc ... and then videos only show evidence of training flaws and 1m courses. To me this is all about credibility -or lack of - I'm afraid, which is a shame as I'm sure you have the very best of intentions.

 

[nieghham]

I watched two of the flatwork videos and saw the same things you did, which is what made me question the poster about being paid for that type of training.
The horse was not remotely moving forwards at any time, without being forward he can't be straight, if he isn't straight he can't balanced, if he isn't balanced he can't work properly through his back and neck and everything you get will be false and forced.
I have no idea who nieghham is or what their qualifications or achievements are, but the fact remains the videos chosen do not illustrate anything other than a horse (fit or otherwise) being ALLOWED to go in a counter productive by a rider who looks out of balance (but maybe she is concentrating on her cores ). Sorry nieghham you can't excuse a horse being allowed to go like that if it is allegedly an educated one.

Sorry...but you think that less than 3 minutes of video picked to show issues of riding is an encompassing resume.....even with allteh videos combined of this horse there is less than 40 minutes including jumping....and you have accessed this is his constant way of going

really...hmmm....well I am not going to even try to say it was not the whole ride and the finnishing product or show rings demonstrates a different horse...you seem to make up your mind that showing less than a minute of evasion/not the best riding is all there is and it never imporves ever and want to run with it....so be it...run free and feel the wind in your hair if you choose to judge/assume over asking what is happening....especially since I made sure I stated that this particular video was a training video that showed good/bad/ugly of some evasions being worked on

 

[Baggybreeches]

I'm afraid none of this adds up to me.
'International Horses' 'Riding at GP' etc etc etc ... and then videos only show evidence of training flaws and 1m courses. To me this is all about credibility -or lack of - I'm afraid, which is a shame as I'm sure you have the very best of intentions.

That's my point, I don't ever discount anybody's knowledge or experience but it appears this person is slightly over inflating their experience and more importantly standard of training.

 

[Baggybreeches]

Sorry...but you think that less than 3 minutes of video picked to show issues of riding is an encompassing resume.....even with allteh videos combined of this horse there is less than 40 minutes including jumping....and you have accessed this is his constant way of going

You were trying to illustrate a point about how more complicated instruction made for a better rider, from the evidence posted, you failed? I saw what I saw I didn't suggest that the horse went like that all the time, but I saw enough to see that it wasn't being corrected before it happened which my FBHS trainer would haul me over the coals for, which is how we get back to the 'instinct' over 'mechanical/theory' riding, an instinctive rider 'feels' what is about to happen and prevents it, a mechanical rider reacts to the action of the horse.

 

[cptrayes]

This is a rider issue then...over thinking the threory...simply because some do this deos not mean theory is complicatedor hard...just that they are over thinking the mechanical instead of allowing the two to come together for correct riding...soon...the rider is riding the theory/practical together without having to think jus tlike when anyone is learning something new...time and experience allows it to just happen as needed...until then. again JMO..technical and mechanical need to be taught in such a way the rider does not get stuck is all

It's not a rider issue if the trainer has told the trainee that the timing of the aid for the flying change is critical and not explained that the trainee should apply the aid when it feels most natural to do it.

A trainer I had got it through to me and my horse by having us do a figure of eight across the short end of the arena, with a flying change when 10m away from A.

The proximity of a telegraph pole at A focussed my mind wonderfully on applying the aid and stopped me over-analysing when to do it.

Some trainers, unfortunately, do want to be "experts" and if they make things too simple for their pupils they lose that superiority. I've ridden in front of a couple like that - once and never gone back. A great trainer needs to leave their pride at the gate of the arena.

 

[nieghham]

I'm afraid none of this adds up to me.
'International Horses' 'Riding at GP' etc etc etc ... and then videos only show evidence of training flaws and 1m courses. To me this is all about credibility -or lack of - I'm afraid, which is a shame as I'm sure you have the very best of intentions.

Sighhhh...look..my horse is ridden by Ian Roberts a multi-olympic rider....I am in the EC records...my barn name is too as aremy students

So..you all can go that route and check me out.....I have part ownership in several horses as well you can check out...I start/prepare them then place them

Ian does 0 training on my horse....it is well known I or karen Seegert will ride him Dressage and I do the jumping training soley...his record alone is pretty good.

Now...I want to know where these flawless trainers with perfect horses are...I mean I rode with WAZ for 8 years and he is publically on my profile page for advertising and I can absolutely guarentee that the horses I rode had definite hours...non moments now and then...but days of training to work out an issue the horse had

Now...again this is so easy to check out....4 years ago my house was hit by lightning and I lost everything with teh exceptions of a few pictures...the mobile home we were stuck in for two years had a transformer blow through catching it on fire losing whatever we had left....so...no..I do not have pictures other than the ones I have here and from the last two summer
with the exception of a few

I do not know what the issue you guys are having...but I will say it is yours...I will no longer say my levels or provide proof unless it comes through with a picture I am posting

 

[Amaranta]

You were trying to illustrate a point about how more complicated instruction made for a better rider, from the evidence posted, you failed? I saw what I saw I didn't suggest that the horse went like that all the time, but I saw enough to see that it wasn't being corrected before it happened which my FBHS trainer would haul me over the coals for, which is how we get back to the 'instinct' over 'mechanical/theory' riding, an instinctive rider 'feels' what is about to happen and prevents it, a mechanical rider reacts to the action of the horse.

completely agree BB

The video I was originally talking about is this one, different horse, looks very young and green
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=213695765342185&set=vb.100001052906260&type=3&theater

 

[nieghham]

It's not a rider issue if the trainer has told the trainee that the timing of the aid for the flying change is critical and not explained that the trainee should apply the aid when it feels most natural to do it.

Exactly what I am saying....I do not understand thepointor areyou agreeing...the trainerhas leftout an important detail of theory

A trainer I had got it through to me and my horse by having us do a figure of eight across the short end of the arena, with a flying change when 10m away from A.

The proximity of a telegraph pole at A focussed my mind wonderfully on applying the aid and stopped me over-analysing when to do it.

This is a good exersice to help the rider to understand feel vrs application and engagement for those who do tend to over think or who do not want to dwelve into the details as rapid tempo changes will not be importanat to them

Some trainers, unfortunately, do want to be "experts" and if they make things too simple for their pupils they lose that superiority. I've ridden in front of a couple like that - once and never gone back. A great trainer needs to leave their pride at the gate of the arena.

IMO...Superiority that is conesending should never be part of a coaches make up/thoughs just as students who have coaches who do go into details should not label them or judge them all the same

Again...to me...there is a huge difference in arrogance of conciet and confidence in ones skill due to training/experience/results

If a coach is not confident in their skills or ability....those would be teh ones I question myself...if they do not have the confidence in their knowledge...how can I

 

[Auslander]

So - who are you? No-one can tell if your credentials are as impressive as your ability to spout forth word-vomit unless you share, and as per my post on your other thread, transparency may get you an easier ride here.

 

[Baggybreeches]

Sighhhh...look..my horse is ridden by Ian Roberts a multi-olympic rider....I am in the EC records...my barn name is too as aremy students

So..you all can go that route and check me out.....I have part ownership in several horses as well you can check out...I start/prepare them then place them

Ian does 0 training on my horse....it is well known I or karen Seegert will ride him Dressage and I do the jumping training soley...his record alone is pretty good.

Now...I want to know where these flawless trainers with perfect horses are...I mean I rode with WAZ for 8 years and he is publically on my profile page for advertising and I can absolutely guarentee that the horses I rode had definite hours...non moments now and then...but days of training to work out an issue the horse had

Now...again this is so easy to check out....4 years ago my house was hit by lightning and I lost everything with teh exceptions of a few pictures...the mobile home we were stuck in for two years had a transformer blow through catching it on fire losing whatever we had left....so...no..I do not have pictures other than the ones I have here and from the last two summer
with the exception of a few

I do not know what the issue you guys are having...but I will say it is yours...I will no longer say my levels or provide proof unless it comes through with a picture I am posting

I have no desire to look you up, what I am trying to do is to say that the examples you have posted are poor examples from someone who should know that the a) do not illustrate your point well and b) do not reflect well on your professional image. I have no beef with you personally but you are coming across as incredibly patronising which never goes down well. There are people on here who I am still slightly awe struck by, and some who have been found very wanting when the time came to prove themselves. It sounds like you've had a truly crappy time but that doesn't make your way of teaching any more the 'right' way than anyone else's.
I maintain that watching those videos I would not pay to train with you (which is no issue as I have access to good training on my doorstep )

 

[nieghham]

Guys...this thread is waaay off topic and has been about me long enough....hell even I am bored of it and threw away the popcorn.

If you have an issue with me...it is yours....I hope you find a way to resolve it so I am not so much a thorn for ya.

 

[nieghham]

I have no desire to look you up, what I am trying to do is to say that the examples you have posted are poor examples from someone who should know that the a) do not illustrate your point well and b) do not reflect well on your professional image. I have no beef with you personally but you are coming across as incredibly patronising which never goes down well. There are people on here who I am still slightly awe struck by, and some who have been found very wanting when the time came to prove themselves. It sounds like you've had a truly crappy time but that doesn't make your way of teaching any more the 'right' way than anyone else's.

please bring the quote oreven implication where I stated this....in fact...I believe several timesI have stated the opposite

I maintain that watching those videos I would not pay to train with you (which is no issue as I have access to good training on my doorstep )

I am here in a non-professional way...proffession may be spoken about/refered to but in no way am I participating in here as a pro or looking for students/wanting to change the riding world...I am a HH member joining in a discussion

That is all

 

[Amaranta]

In case you missed my post, this is the video I was referring to

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=213695765342185&set=vb.100001052906260&type=3&theater

 

[TableDancer]

Interesting thread Originally I was going to pile in with the "of course it doesn't need to be complicated" argument, but having read through all the responses I've realised that the answer is, er, a bit more complicated

I guess riding, and any sport at a high level, is indeed quite complex and there is no doubt that we never stop learning, which - given the age of some of us - suggests there is a lot to learn I think the issue is one of simplicity (or the opposite) of communication rather than simplicity of technique. So some of the techniques you need to master to ride successfully at a high level are quite complex, however the skill of a good coach is in expressing these ideas in a clear, easy to understand fashion. I'm not just talking about when we are standing in a cold school teaching a client, but also when conducting discussions like the ones on this forum. It is very clear to me in reading the threads that some of the participants are far more skilled than others in this important respect. It is a shame, because what are possibly useful and valid ideas become lost in a fog of unnecessarily multi-syllabic, ridiculously verbose statements. It is inevitable that a large proportion of the audience get turned off, and another proportion get wound up. I think some of the problem is a cultural one: here in Britain we tend to seek to express complex ideas as simply and concisely as possible; my perception is that on the other side of the pond there may be a greater respect for verbosity and grammatical gymnastics

I have to say, Neigham, I too found the videos you have posted unhelpful in proving your veracity as a correct, higher level trainer - I understand that the context may well be more complicated and there are mitigating circumstances, but you didn't provide us with them to start with so we must be forgiven for drawing our own conclusions.

 

[Auslander]

I am here in a non-professional way...proffession may be spoken about/refered to but in no way am I participating in here as a pro or looking forstudents/wanting to change the riding world...I am a HH member joining in

That is all

Not really joining in though, is it. More like talking AT people. And ignoring questions you don't want to answer - like who you are. Tell you what, I'll tell you my name if you tell me yours? Tempted?

 

[Baggybreeches]

Not really joining in though, is it. More like talking AT people. And ignoring questions you don't want to answer - like who you are. Tell you what, I'll tell you my name if you tell me yours? Tempted?

See? I thought it was just me on a parallel universe!

 

[Auslander]

See? I thought it was just me on a parallel universe!

Welcome to my world!

 

[Amaranta]

Not really joining in though, is it. More like talking AT people. And ignoring questions you don't want to answer - like who you are. Tell you what, I'll tell you my name if you tell me yours? Tempted?

You don't need to prove anything Charlotte, we all know who you are

 

[SpottedCat]

If you google the horse's name, then its website comes up.

FWIW the Equine Canada results show a horse which since 2006 has competed once at 1.10, then predominantly at 1m and below and has done the equivalent of BE100 eventing a couple of times.

 

[mik]

Interesting thread Originally I was going to pile in with the "of course it doesn't need to be complicated" argument, but having read through all the responses I've realised that the answer is, er, a bit more complicated

I guess riding, and any sport at a high level, is indeed quite complex and there is no doubt that we never stop learning, which - given the age of some of us - suggests there is a lot to learn I think the issue is one of simplicity (or the opposite) of communication rather than simplicity of technique. So some of the techniques you need to master to ride successfully at a high level are quite complex, however the skill of a good coach is in expressing these ideas in a clear, easy to understand fashion. I'm not just talking about when we are standing in a cold school teaching a client, but also when conducting discussions like the ones on this forum. It is very clear to me in reading the threads that some of the participants are far more skilled than others in this important respect. It is a shame, because what are possibly useful and valid ideas become lost in a fog of unnecessarily multi-syllabic, ridiculously verbose statements. It is inevitable that a large proportion of the audience get turned off, and another proportion get wound up. I think some of the problem is a cultural one: here in Britain we tend to seek to express complex ideas as simply and concisely as possible; my perception is that on the other side of the pond there may be a greater respect for verbosity and grammatical gymnastics

I have to say, Neigham, I too found the videos you have posted unhelpful in proving your veracity as a correct, higher level trainer - I understand that the context may well be more complicated and there are mitigating circumstances, but you didn't provide us with them to start with so we must be forgiven for drawing our own conclusions.

Thank you TD for this refreshingly put piece of sanity-

 

[TarrSteps]

my perception is that on the other side of the pond there may be a greater respect for verbosity and grammatical gymnastics .

Um, should I be offended?!

Okay, you might have a point. I would have said I was unnecessarily verbose by Canadian standards!

 

[brighthair]

I take it your initials are LK?

 

[Baggybreeches]

You don't need to prove anything Charlotte, we all know who you are

*snorts*

 

[SpottedCat]

Um, should I be offended?!

Okay, you might have a point. I would have said I was unnecessarily verbose by Canadian standards!

I'm disappointed - you haven't invented a single word during your time with us. I feel cheated.

 

[Cortez]

Y'know, it is WAAAY easier to learn a whole bunch of theory and spout that than it is to actually DO something. A good teacher/trainer knows the theory, then just goes and does what works. A really good teacher/trainer pitches the instruction/training at a level that the student can digest, and gets the results in whatever way works best for that particular combination. You cannot learn to ride from a book, because the horses havn't read them. Me, I absolutely LOOOVE theory and could give Neighham a serious run for her/his money in a spout off, but I don't think it either useful or clever to clutter up one of the simplest and most useful basic excercises with reams of irrelevent guff. As someone said earlier, and very well put, riding IS simple; it IS NOT easy, which is why we all keep at it.

 

[TarrSteps]

I take it your initials are LK?

Do you mean neighman? No

 

[ihatework]

If you google the horse's name, then its website comes up.

FWIW the Equine Canada results show a horse which since 2006 has competed once at 1.10, then predominantly at 1m and below and has done the equivalent of BE100 eventing a couple of times.

FWIW he looks like a really cute horse and I'm sure he's very much loved .... but I'd love to see a 'what do you think of my breeding stallion' thread in the breeding section

But it has made me realise I need to be less self-depreciating !!

 

[nieghham]

If you google the horse's name, then its website comes up.

FWIW the Equine Canada results show a horse which since 2006 has competed once at 1.10, then predominantly at 1m and below and has done the equivalent of BE100 eventing a couple of times.

and the other horses shown that are in teh records otherthan my pet/friend who is not my pro horse...there records are...and the horses owned by me/trained by me and placed with othe rriders...names of the owners and part owners are included starting fromoh...say....1970's and up?

and no...my initials are not LK