Does the Horse World disproportionately attract abusive people?

[Miss_Millie]

This is something I can't stop thinking about recently.

Over the decades I've seen so much abuse towards both horses and people in the equestrian world, by people who are entrenched in the lifestyle.

- Aggressive, mean, bullying riding instructors
- Horse owners/liveries who routinely hit their horses and shout at them
- Yard bitchiness, deliberately excluding or ganging up on certain people, sabotaging other liveries in various ways
- Power-hungry yard owners who operate their yard based on fear

My non-horsey partner was kind of shocked when he first got a taste of just how hostile of an environment the horse world can be. The recent spate of top rider abuse videos surfacing are awful, but really not shocking to me, and I'm sure many others, who have seen more casual abuse on a daily basis on yards or at local shows.

I can't help but wonder how much of this behaviour is nurture and tradition (e.g. teaching children from a young age to 'pony club kick' and 'don't let them win'), how much of it is the peer pressure to conform when on yard environments or feel helpless to defend yourself/ your horse, and how much of it is abusive people being attracted to pushing around and beating up a stoic prey animal, just because they can, and therefore adopting the lifestyle where they can openly be abusers.

I can honestly say I've met a handful of people over the years who chillingly seemed to lack any empathy and compassion for the animal they were interacting with. How much of this is learned and how many abusive people seek out environments where they can more openly abuse, because somehow it has become acceptable within this bubble?

One vile yard hand from my childhood I will never forget, she was a teenager and she seemed to enjoy hitting both the school ponies and the yard dogs. I will never forget walking past a stable to see her having cornered a horse and proceeding to beat the living daylights out of her. The same person deliberately caused me to have an accident, for which I still have scars. This was an RDA school and one of the dogs had whip scars on her body.

My question is are these people shaped by the majority of horsemen/women before them and by tradition, or do they simply find it easier to exist and thrive in this environment where for some reason we seem to tolerate and have become numb to both constant micro-aggressions and flat out abuse on a daily basis?

 

[shortstuff99]

I think it is human nature, this sort of behaviour appears at dog shows, dance and gym competitions etc

 

[Caol Ila]

Maybe I have been lucky but I've not met that many people over the years who regularly hit horses and shout at them.

The power-hungry yard owners who run yards like their little autocratic fiefdoms are endemic. Maybe you have to be mad and power hungry to want to a run a livery yard.

I've come across cliqueyness, for sure, and some weirdness, but never anything unmanageable or what I'd call bullying. I mean, you stick a group of people together, you're going to get politics. That's people for you.

 

[blitznbobs]

No it’s a human trait found in every environment… name a sport and there will be nasty people there… just watch the news for 5 minutes

 

[paddy555]

I started reading your post OP and immediately thought of men (usually men) and pit bulls/XL bullies teaching them aggressiveness and meaness.

 

[shortstuff99]

Somehow I have managed to avoid this real horrible stuff in the horse world. There is bitching etc but nothing like the above!

I used to do gymnastics and that for me was worse.

 

[dorsetladette]

Every species of animal has been victim of abuse by humans at some point or another. It's just that we are involved in the horse world we are more aware of the abuse within it. I'm sure dog and cat forums will be having conversations about abuse within their worlds too.

I agree that yards do seem to be perfect breeding grounds for bullying and toxic behaviour if not managed properly. But so can offices, other workplaces and sports facilities. Those same environments can also be places to nurture friendships that last a lifetime and support networks second to none. So there are always two sides to everything.

 

[Polos Mum]

If you look at almost any 'sport' there are these sorts sadly.

If you look at the lengths people go to 'help' their children succeed at sport.

Kids Saturday morning football referees have to have bigs signs up with parent codes of conduct because of the abuse they receive !

I think there are horrible people in most areas of life sadly.

I think, rightly, we're upping the standards as time goes by so different areas are getting attention. Mid 1980's horse abuse wouldn't have made the news - now it does - which is only a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I think part of the problem, maybe most of it, is the imbalance of power, not between the human and the animal, although of course that is a factor, but between the humans involved. Some people are afraid to speak out in case they are given notice to leave their livery yard. If people don't speak outwhen they see it abuse will continue in all walks of life.

 

[eggs]

Short answer = no. We are just more aware of it at the moment as it is something (horses) that we are all vested in.

You only have to look outside the horse world to see that abuse goes on everywhere and particularly where competitive sport is involved.

 

[Peglo]

The difference with other sports is no one is telling Toby to growl at Steven to make him score a goal at football or kick Peter to encourage him to save a penalty or give Mike a smack with a stick if he doesn’t do a good tackle.

The cliquyness and bitching and even verbal abuse will happen but the dominance and physical abuse to a team mate isn’t so widely accepted or worse, encouraged or taught in other sports.

It’s an interesting discussion.

 

[conkers]

The horse world is the only place that I have been threatened with physical violence. My crime? She had randomly texted me out of the blue telling me that I should have my horse put down before winter. And when I found an alternative that actually suited his needs better she went off on one because I didn't do what she wanted.

She was also the sort of person who though nothing of beating her horses with a schooling whip if they didn't do what she wanted.

 

[Polos Mum]

Horses in nature - with each other - are much more physical than we are, so comparing them to how kids interact with each other isn't really fair.

I have 4 in a stable herd that have been together for 3 years now with no changes in the herd.
1 is firmly dominant and 1 firmly the bottom. I can see them from my house windows so I spy on them a lot - when they can't see that they are being watched.
They bite each other a lot - they rarely leave marks so it's firm enough to get a reaction - but not enough to do damage.
They kick each other so hard I can hear the smack from 400m away.
One in particular picks on the bottom of the herd one and will just chase him round - appearing to be for fun - the victim really does not enjoy it and the bully stops when I shout at him!
They are very physical with each other and lots of it is not fluffy.

If we assume they can't have any physical correction (pushing them back when they go to barge out of the stable / through gate or tapping stick on the shoulder when they start spooking on the road at a crisp packet in the verge) we will lose some perfectly acceptable and OK methods to manage them and keep them safe.

Maybe we have to say no physical correction for now - so all the over the top stuff is stopped.
But in the long run - assuming that every use of the stick, or raise of the voice, or v firmly shoving them off my foot when they stand on me ! is bad - will swing things the other way for horse welfare / management.

 

[HopOnTrot]

Not really, most horse people are nice IMO it’s the non-horsey ones I don’t get.

 

[Gloi]

Anything where there is competition, especially for money or prestige brings out the worst in people.. I've seen it everywhere not just with horses.

 

[Peglo]

Horses in nature - with each other - are much more physical than we are, so comparing them to how kids interact with each other isn't really fair.

But we are speaking about smacking them with the intention of punishment. Humans have the brain capacity to know the pain they are inflicting. I don’t think horses being horses is comparable to humans abusing horses for the sake of sport. I have no issues with pushing a horse off my foot but I would never smack my horse around the head 6 times to punish her for running out of a jump

 

[equinerebel]

The difference with other sports is no one is telling Toby to growl at Steven to make him score a goal at football or kick Peter to encourage him to save a penalty or give Mike a smack with a stick if he doesn’t do a good tackle.

Well said. The horse also cannot consent or understand the drive humans have to achieve goals that are meaningless to them.

 

[Polos Mum]

The extreme examples are clear - and nobody would disagree.

I hope most don't hit their horses around the head multiple times (I really hope that!)
But for most the question is where is the line - is any use of the stick OK or not?

Honestly the bully horse in my herd is absolutely clear that he is inflicting pain on this fellow horses - to punish them for his view of misdemeans
For him - standing in front of him at the gate is the most terrible crime they can commit and he inflicts disproportionate biting on them if they don't move out of his way - IMMEDIATELY
His physical violence definitely hurts
But an hour later they are sleeping in a tight bunch or scratching each other - so his actions don't cause long term damage on his relationship with his fellow horses.

For me - I want to be the best I can, so I'm questioning myself
When does correction become punishment ?
What is appropriate and in which situations - to keep them and me safe / happy

 

[millitiger]

I do think you get a higher % of people likely to behave poorly in the horse world.

By the very nature of horse sport and even just having horses as pets, you are exerting your will over an animal and controlling it and it has no voice to answer back.
That will always 'attract' people who are controlling, bullying type unfortunately.

When you then go into horse sports, you are adding competitive nature and ego into the mix so I think the % ramps up again.

I think most people start riding because they love horses and want to be with them but I do think some unsuitable people stick with it as they enjoy the control it gives them.

 

[equinerebel]

Regarding horse behaviour within herds - horses understand each other on a level they will never understand humans. I don't think it's particularly useful to compare herd dynamics to anything humans do when riding.

 

[misst]

A friend whose daughter was a very talented gymnast and competed for years all over Europe and further, had a terrible time with the club her daughter trained at. Jealousy, bitching, back biting all went on constantly. Then add in what I considered to be abusive training methods - it was horrendous. Years later the club was one of the ones that was highlighted when the sporting association found coaches to abusive. They were eventually hounded out of that club and joined another successful one but it was never the same. The cliqueyness and the backbiting reminded me of pony club at times.
I think as someone said up thread money, fame, power, ambition and success on any level are usually the root of these behaviours.

 

[shortstuff99]

Well said. The horse also cannot consent or understand the drive humans have to achieve goals that are meaningless to them.

That does happen though? Players in football, rugby, cricket etc are given all sorts of abuse to play better. Even at lower league.

Football managers are well known to throw things at players and scream and shout at them to perform better in locker rooms.

 

[WrongLeg]

The horse world is the only place that I have been threatened with physical violence. My crime? She had randomly texted me out of the blue telling me that I should have my horse put down before winter. And when I found an alternative that actually suited his needs better she went off on one because I didn't do what she wanted.

She was also the sort of person who though nothing of beating her horses with a schooling whip if they didn't do what she wanted.

I am not surprised by this. In what other working/ sporting culture would this be acceptable?

Why are horsey people so obsessed with telling you they know best about your animal and retaliating when you prove them wrong.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I think part of the problem, maybe most of it, is the imbalance of power, not between the human and the animal, although of course that is a factor, but between the humans involved. Some people are afraid to speak out in case they are given notice to leave their livery yard. If people don't speak outwhen they see it abuse will continue in all walks of life.

I agree a lot with this. At my last yard, threats of being kicked off were handed out like gift baskets for the most trivial of things. You had to keep your head down and hope that you would blend in and not get on the wrong side of anyone.

 

[equinerebel]

That does happen though? Players in football, rugby, cricket etc are given all sorts of abuse to play better. Even at lower league.

Football managers are well known to throw things at players and scream and shout at them to perform better in locker rooms.

I'm not disputing that abuse happens in other sports, of course it does, and it's terrible. I'm saying the difference is that horses cannot consent to being a part of the sport, which sets equestrian sports apart.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I think most people start riding because they love horses and want to be with them but I do think some unsuitable people stick with it as they enjoy the control it gives them.

This is my feeling also.

 

[WrongLeg]

My mother warned me that I was going to be on the receiving end of difficult behaviour/ attempts to sabotage my ride simply because I could ride a pony that was too sharp for the YO.

Why is this behaviour considered not just acceptable, but normal, in the horse world? It is not anywhere else.

 

[EventingMum]

I'm not sure if it is disproportionate in the horse world. Certainly my main observations are within the horse world with a few years observing rugby coaching during my son's childhood and teen years. I didn't see any abuse in the rugby world but it was only school and club level.

In the horse world I have witnessed it in different scenarios from yard b****ing in both children and adults which is often jealousy, parental or coach pressure or just nasty people to horse abuse. With horse abuse it has been driven by ignorance / lack of knowledge in some cases to a desire / pressure to win in others or just sheer temper / frustration. Whatever the root cause it has to be acknowledged that it is unacceptable in any form and there needs to be a clear protocol for raising genuine concerns and consequences for the abusers though how to actually do this will be very tricky.

As for some people, I think their inherent personality does play a part and I'm not sure what can be done in those circumstances - I once saw a boy of about eight years old standing beside a dog who was peacefully lying down, the boy stared at the dog for a while and then, very deliberately brought his foot up and stamped on the dog's tail. The dog yelped and the boy fleetingly smirked before his mother, who saw the look of horror on my face, interjected saying it must have been an accident. I often wondered what sort of person he grew up in to.

 

[stangs]

As a general rule, I don’t agree that the horse world attracts abusive people. What I do think, however, is that people often get exposed to violence to horses from a young age, and get desensitised to it. Then stress (particularly for those working in the equine industry for whom a horse’s behaviour can be the difference between a good day at work or not - pro riders, riding school staff, livery YMs) combines with that desensitisation to tip their behaviour into abuse territory.

E.g., I watched a lesson once where one particular horse was acting up, setting off the other horses and making the whole lesson a disaster. Lots of muttering among the riders’ parents. Instructor grabs a hold of the horse’s reins and knees and kicks her in the stomach repeatedly.

I know for a fact that that instructor loved that same horse to the death. She cared for her obsessively. I certainly don’t think she was a naturally abusive person either. But when she was stressed, she no longer perceived abuse as abuse.

And you see the same in dog sports, in anything competitive involving young children (pageants anyone?), etc. As soon as your success is reliant on a weaker being who can’t fight back, things can slide into cruelty quite quickly.

 

[WrongLeg]

Some people just take out their emotions on animals because there is no means for the animal to retaliate…anger, envy, greed, ambition.

Often these people are unaware of their emotions and emotionally regulate is dysfunctional ways (i.e alcohol). I’ve experienced jealousy being at the root cause of abuse.

I was asked to school a newly broken pony that would not halt/ accept contact/ reared by the YO (on a voluntary/ non-paid basis.

I taught the mare to halt from my seat & voice & breath within a few days by hacking her calmly at walk on the buckle of the rein. She started to reach for the contact.

I went away saying ‘don’t pull on the reins’: I came back and the YO told me ‘I have rearranged her molars for you’.

The pony was really stressed and back to rearing when you asked for halt. The YO then told everyone I could not ride and had ruined her pony…she was envious and angry at my success and took it out on the horse.