Dog Discipline - Kicking a dog....opinions pls

N

nicky_jakey

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 April 2007
Messages
434
Location
South Bucks
Visit site
Essentially I was witness to someone kicking a dog to discipline it today. The dog in question did not belong to the person who kicked it. Their reason for kicking it was to discipline it (despite it not being their dog BUT was on their land).
The dog is a small terrier not quite a year old. It was chasing a chicken & this was the reason for it apparently needing to be kicked.
Essentially it was 'goal kicked' very hard, all 4 feet leaving the ground & hitting itself against a wall. It then limped away.
I questioned the behaviour of the person who kicked it, who informed me that this was the best way to deal with the dog & it certainly wouldn't chase the chicken again. They claim this is supported by a dog trainer.
I would like to ask people's views as to whether kicking a dog (however hard / soft) is a common / acceptable way to discipline it?
Personally I was disgusted as I've never witnessed this behaviour before but perhaps I'm naiive, hence trying to ask for the opinions of others.
So, please be honest...is this correct? I'm quite happy if this person is correct & this is the normal way to discipline a dog.....?
 
Okay, so i kicked out at (or rather nudged out at, though im not sure i even touched her! drama queen!) my dog today to stop her from pinning one of our chickens (who were all incidentally murdering a cock pheasant!!!!) and my god you would have thought I'd booted her, she jumped 4 foot in the air and screamed.

Did you actually see the contact. mine does this alot and really convinces people they have hurt her when really she has been yards from them and just wants sympathy hugs.
she has also leapt into things in her flinches (karma).
 
Where was the owner while all this was going on?:eek:

I have nudged Henry with my leg/foot, to get his attention but certainly not hard enough to hurt him. I wouldn't kick him and if I did I certainly wouldn't call it 'training'. As for lifting a dog off the floor - totally unacceptable IMO, the dog should not have been in a position to chase chickens but that was the fault of the owner, not the dog.:mad:

Anyone can call themselves a trainer, doesn't mean anything in itself, so I wouldn't place much store in that, and I wouldn't take my dog to see them either.
 
Just to try to answer some of the questions...

Yes, contact was definately made. The dog was actually lifted off the ground.

The owner was on the yard, mucking out her horse. She heard the commotion & saw her dog being kicked. She was horrified as he's such a small & relatively young dog.

I witnessed the event & am trying to remain out of it. I'm trying to find out the correct way to discipline a dog & if kicking (however hard / soft) is acceptable.

Thanks for the replies so far x
 
If he had kicked the dog as a knee jerk (sorry pun not intended) reaction to the dog chasing the chicken I could understand it although not condone. However kicking is definitely not acceptable as a means of discipline/training imo .
 
Thanks MM

This person (YO) has kicked dogs - both theirs and other people's on the yard - a number of times before. I have witnessed it on a few occaisions.

Today the kick was extremely hard & the poor dog actually left the ground and was flung against a wall. It's only a terrier.
I challenged their behaviour & whether kicking was really necessary. I was told in no uncertain terms that this was supported by a dog trainer as an acceptable way to discipline a dog. As well as to mind my own business! This 'disciplining' / kicking has been for a number of reasons....dogs chasing the quad bike, dogs playing too close to the horses & today for chasing the chicken (that does NOT belong to the YO but to the groom, just incase anyone assumed it's the YO's chicken).

Again thanks for the replies but I'm starting to get the gist that kicking isn't acceptable under any circumstances. Feel free to correct me thou....
 
Yesterday, I recalled my young lab whilst out on a walk, I give her a treat as a reward and she really snatched it and nipped my fingers. Now, although it was not deliberate and it was more high jinx as we were out walking and she was excited it bloody hurt AND from day 1 I have reinforced taking treats gently, so she should have known better. Anyway my instinctive reaction to the pain was to kick out with my foot, however I didn't boot her and I had ugg boots on but I felt really guilty after. I wont be doing it again.
 
As MM, I bopped my big dog on the nose through reflex when he really hurt me (headbutt, with teeth) :o but this sounds like it was advised?!
Have also nudged a dog with my foot before.

The dog could just learn to chase chickens and avoid feet/do it out of sight of humans....
 
That was certainly not a form of training it was an angry reaction! the owner sounds like she maybe needs the next kick for not keeping and eye on the dog. (was she literally cleaning th stable and taking zilch notice of the dog):confused:
I doubt kicking would ever stop a dog wanting to kill:rolleyes:
 
I 'kick' mine although not hard enough to fling them against a wall! If one of mine was chasing chickens (we all know the story of the pubs ill fated chicken! :eek: :o) then yea they would meet the end of my boot I'm afraid, especially if I've got my hands full with other dogs at the time! Not sure I would have kicked the dog in this instance as you describe, probably scruffed it and slapped its arse and it certainly sounds like there was far to much force used...especially when it isnt your dog!
 
No kicking is not acceptable as part of discipline with regards to training and one day he will do that to the wrong dog.

If a child was being attacked I think you would use any means possible to stop this happening and if you had to kick a dog in the process so be it.
 
Kneejerk reaction-not surprised. When dogs are killing chicknes often your reaction is to remove them asap and the automatic reaction is to do it with your legs.
Dog should not have been off lead if not trustworthy with chickens.
As a training method it is not acceptable, one off, understandable but not ideal. More ideal would be to scruff the dog, but that risks being bitten on the hand of course.
 
To add-I have seen a few dogs after a crack when chasing the chicken, in the actual act, then steer very wide of the chickens afterwards, still not a good method and v. risky to such a small dog if any force was used.
 
Maybe the YO should put some rules into place for dogs on the yard, such as having them on a lead at all times, rather than booting them about the place. Otherwise one of these days, they're going to boot a dog that takes a chunk out of them in return. Or an owner that will do it for them.
 
Again thanks for the replies & comments.

I'm trying desperately to remain impartial & purely present the facts... However, no one believes the dog was trying to 'get' the chicken. It really was merely trotting after the chicken, showing an interest. The dog has never bitten anyone / anything BUT I completely accept that this won't necessarily remain true and it could have ended up chasing the chicken with much more 'intent'.
The chicken is very used to dogs...they always initially show an interest but she does retaliate if they get too close / nosey & pecks them on the nose!
This was the 1st time this dog had met the chicken & been up to the yard recently. She normally leaves him at home, but as she wasn't riding she brought him up.
I accept she didn't keep a good enough eye on him.
But, did he really deserve to be kicked so hard?
As I say, the YO stands by kicking dogs & backs this up by saying their dog trainer supports this.
Perhaps the middle ground is that a dog should be disciplined (by whatever means convenient at the time incl kicking) but in a much more restrained manner??
 
Jeez, I'd move yard. I'm serious! I wouldn't want to leave an animal of mine unsupervised around someone that overreacts so violently to minor things - if the dog wasn't actually chasing the chicken, there's even less excuse! And if the chicken stands its ground, that would have been a far more valuable lesson in leaving the chooks in peace.

I am training to be a dog trainer, and I work with a fully qualified trainer to do so. She offers general obediance, agility, and specialist gundog training. If someone booted their dog in one of our classes like that person did, they would be asked to leave and not come back, immediately. I would not condone such behaviour, and nor would my trainer.

I'd keep a very close eye on your horses.
 
My dog trainer recommends a light tap with your foot if the dog ignores you and treats/toys don't work but in no way condones kicking dogs.
 
Jake10 said:
My dog trainer recommends a light tap with your foot if the dog ignores you and treats/toys don't work but in no way condones kicking dogs.
Click to expand...

That I find more likely coming from a trainer ^^^^ and fine by me.
A boot of the force the OP describes to a small dog is most likely going to cause some damage and I doubt he would have thouht about it, he would have literally aimed for anywhere.
 
I'll use a foot/leg in the same way I will a hand- basically a slight shove if the dog is getting into something it shouldn't (bin, litter tray, suspect bits of rubbish whilst out walking etc.) as tbh sometimes a nudge or shove with your leg is faster/hands are full etc. :o I wouldn't actually put the boot in though.

At the end of the day you risk hurting or harming the dog (I imagine broken ribs would be possible if you kicked hard enough in anger). Also, if the dog isn't the YO's then she has no idea how the dog will react to the kick. For example, had she done it to mine she would have ended up with 40kg of self righteous, infuriated pup hanging onto the leg of her jeans. For that reason alone any trainer advising such a correction in general terms needs their head checking.

Lashing out in pain/fear is a pretty normal human reaction. But as far as training methods go it's a bit overly simplistic- rather like rubbing a pup's nose in his own pee.

Would agree however with other posters that have mentioned it's not the greatest idea for the owner not to be watching the pup more closely when down at the yard.
 
I have to say if someone down the yard booted my dog I would go absolutely mental. In that circumstance a loud "NO" and maybe a slap on the backside would suffice, then words with the owner re closer control of the dog. He went completely overboard IMO.
 
We would say a light tap with the hand for the same reason - not a slap, but an 'oy, come on, pay attention sunshine' nudge. Personally I wouldn't say to use the leg or foot in class as I think it can be harder to guage the level of force you're using. Lashing out at a dog with a boot or hand would be unacceptable.

Henry would either run back to me or lash out if treated in such a way. I'm not sure which and I'd rather not find out, frankly!
 
TBF-if being challenged about it, YO may be being embaressed and hence saying dog trainer supports it to try and save face..
 
SusieT - I suspect you may be right.

YO has (retrospectly) admitted the kick was harder than intended but they stand by their actions & would kick any dog on the yard (regardless of owner) if seeing any 'unruly' behaviour again.

They are adament this is supported by their dog trainer....

None of the dogs kicked (that I've witnessed) have ever retalliated. They've all just looked shocked / surprised & 'hurt'. Certainly none of them has growled / barked or bitten 'in revenge'. Hence, the YO isn't likely to get bitten!

When I confronted the YO earlier (at the time of the incident), they stand by kicking dogs but said they'd never kick a horse....! Personally, I can't understand this logic....anyone else??

I do appreciate the replies but those stating they'd 'beat anyone that did that to their dog' really isn't helping. I'm after constructive advise....not encouraging violence.

It is an awkward situation as it's the YO & isn't a regular occurance. Perhaps I've witnessed or been told about roughly one incident a month. Not usually this hard kick - hence my posting on this occasion.
 
Well here's my constructive advice.

I'd remove any of my animals from her yard. Who is her dog trainer? Jean Claude Van Damme?!! For christs sake the woman/man sounds like nothing but a useless bully.
 
The YO is lucky then. They are asking for trouble IMO. And I would get any animal of mine off the yard. Lost tempers and petulant overreactions have no place around horses or dogs.

Anyone can set themselves up as a trainer, so the mere fact that their 'trainer' says it's ok is absolutely meaningless. Their trainer might be some bloke they know in the pub that dispenses a bit of advice about picking dogs up by their ears when they don't come back quick enough.
 
The YO does have a legitimate dog trainer. Obviously I'm not willing to put names on this public forum. So you will have to trust me - there is a professional dog trainer who's allegedly been consulted. However, I do suspect the YO hasn't neccesarily given a 'correct' account of how hard the kick was etc.

Again, there is clearly (even in the YO's words) no issue to the horses. I can confirm they would never be compromised. They have purely been dog incidents - kicking or throwing objects at them. No dog has been injured - however, I am intregued re the dog today. I will speak to the owner tomorrow to check.

I am merely trying to ascertain whether others deem it acceptable to kick dogs as per a disciplining proceedure.
 
OK. Nudging or even prodding with a foot, if needed, fine.
Goal kicking a dog, not fine.

As mentioned, and I know several such dogs, you do that to the wrong dog, it will defend itself and the kickee will know all about it....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top