Dog driving me mad, advice and a slap please :)

The crate can be very beneficial in may different situations, as I said I used it for my young female pup to the age of 4 months, and as has been stated it can be a secure place for a dog who is older and has poor eyesight, also it is great for dogs who may get car sick as the dog often feels much more secure in a crate whilst travelling. I have given my opinion and suggested ways to try and improve your dogs current problems, ppl post their problems on a forum, to get other ppls personal experices of what has worked for them in such situations. You have to be prepared to face the fact not everyone is going to agree with you and as an animal welfare officer of 3 years I do not feel my suggestions make me look ignorant or anything along those lines, I have in fact helped out in situations where families have been so at the end of their tether with their dogs that they have considered putting them to a rehoming centre.
I do hope you find a solution to your dogs problems but i would suggest you be a little more open to suggestion that the crate isnt always the answer.

It is a shame toys have been thrown out the pram as I would have been interested to hear how your dog improves ppl have given you a lot of good advise and taken the time to read through the problems you are experiencing but I guess you have your idea of how it should be done and I do sort of wonder why you started the thread in the first place.
 
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I don't think anyone has 'slated' anyone on this topic...?
Everyone has different ideas BUT everyone has different situations at home.
We all want what is best for our animals but it has to fit in with our day to day life too.
If we have to work then the pets have to take a back seat, we can make it up to them when we get home from work with extra play time etc

As long as we all do the best we can for our animals and take advice as help rather than critisism then we will all be ok, some ideas can be dismissed and some can be taken on board.
Nothing is written in stone !:)
 
My dog has been brought up with a cage since a puppy, she's never been told off andtold to go to it, I work many hours through the week, she goes in her cage from 7-1 in the day then I am at home to let her out in my dinner hour, she is then left in it again from 2 til 5 when daughter comes home, I couldn't dare leave her out as I'd have a dead dog on my hands being my terrier, one in cage is a staffy. She has never known anything different and is fine with this routine
 
God its the great crate debate all over again where is Caylas mum when we need her.:D

My pet hate people jumping in without reading the original thread and getting hold of the wrong end of the stick Ive seen it time after time.
 
Not to drag this out any longer but I'm always confused with the crate/don't crate discussion. Unless a dog is in a working situation, they sleep all day don't they? Why is it wrong that they are crated while they do this if they are let out for toilet breaks at good intervals and well-exercised at other times? What do they get being out of a crate during this time other than the ability to move from one bed to another one or maybe play with a toy for a short time which they could also do in the crate? After all, every night I lock myself in one room and sleep for 6-7 hours (I wish it was 9 but I just can't sleep that long) and sometimes I barely move. What's the difference?
 
I am of the opinion that if you don't have any shameful or poorly thought out pet care to hide, you shouldn't have anything to fear by posting on the internet. If you know in your heart of hearts that you could be doing better by your pet, it will tend to be picked up on and if you don't have a reasonable explanation it will be pounced on.
So if you have thought through all options and are doing the best you can by your animal, I for one would be very slow to crticise.
 
Im lost with this, LML wrote a nice reply giving a little update of how she upped B's exercise and left in a different manner today "in the thought" it's her actual leaving the houe thats setting her off, if this is the case she will stll get stressed when LML leaves the house crate or no crate. LML has obviously taken advice from the posters and put what she feels right into pactice (what the forum is about) there is eall no need for peope to get stroppy because she has not taken "their advice", I can totally see where these posts get out of hand. I agree with spuds on this one.
LML will maybe one day no doubt phase the crate out, but as she has mentioned over and over on the forum and I'm sure in this post (she is in a RENTED) house, "soon to be in her own home", for this reasn se cannot afford to allow B to destroy, chew, wee, pooh, and i'm sure more so for the fact she could be forced to "rehome" her more than replacing things she has destroyed.

My dogs do not ned to be crated but they will fight to get into an empty one, I posted a pic of my pointer squashed into a westi sized crate the other week (it was a cate belonging to a boarding dog)
Not all dogs are ready to come out of their confined space and such a transition to a large open space can see them become anxious and destructive.
Im dealing with a staffi that has been tearing the house to pieces whe left, they introduced a crate and he takes himself in their and "no destruction" now for 3 weeks, the crate is where his bed used to be (he clearly finds comfort and security with his new confined space) as many dogs do.

I very much doubt it is the crate causing the issues when she is taking herself in their on her own and sleeps through the night perfectly well, she is possibly as discussed aware LML is leaving and gettin a little worked up about this, and maybe thats why today she never, cos LML took a diffeent approach.
Crates do keep a dog/puppy safe first and foremost and they also help with a training routine.
F80 your horse is kept in the back garden is this not for safety, and again an un-natural/small space?
Their is obviosuly a reason you keep him this way just as their is a reason LML prefers her pup in her crate when she cannot be there to supervise her.
Apologies if Im thinking of another horse, I don't venture into the horsey forum, but do like fresians so was reading a post a few nights a ago (granted there are alot a fresian owners):D

Anyway the most important thing is, betsy is well loved and her mammy is trying her best to solve the problems she has and so far (early days);) it's helping thanks to the advice she has taken from the post from varied posters.
 
Gosh there is so much I want to answer in this post but its very late and I am in fact pooped and my bed is calling me :rolleyes:
Let me just start off by saying I dont have a problem with crates, I did in fact read the thread from the beginning took everyones suggestions in and added some more advice which I gave in the hope it might help LML.
The only thing that concerned me with LML's dog was the fact it was being crated for up to 9 hours a day, and I stand by my view that I think this is too long, yes I know this isnt the case every day and I know she is let out for a 30 min break inbetween. I suggested that taking her dog to work on these days might be a good solution to help social skills and get her out the house instead of in the crate through the day which in fact might help the fact she is being destructive in the crate, LML did in fact say this was possible.
I dont claim to be an expert but I was accused of being "A hell of a lot more than ignorant".
To me this is a personal attack on my opinion, which I gave to try help the OP out.....not exactly a very grown up reply IMO. If LML wants to ignore my advice she has every right to but are personal attacks really needed?
I may be very against over use of crates but im afraid I have every right to be, ive seen some very upsetting situations where animals have in fact been neglected and cruely confined due to the over use of crates through work.....just to confirm I am in no way stating this is how I feel about LML's use of the crate just stating why my thoughts on overuse are so strong.
As I stated in my second post on this thread I made it very clear I didnt think LML was a cruel pet owner in fact I told her it was clear she loved her dog very much, why else would she take the time to ask for help on a forum.
Cayla im afraid youve got me mixed up with someone else regarding keeping my horse in a garden my animals are very much free range, if you look again at the friesian thread you will see no horse in my garden ;)
 
Indeed apologies, I just glanced back:o
You are indeed correct and crates can be abused, as can stables, rooms in peoples homes (where many dogs are left to starve to death) kennels, and the list goes on.
Hopefully LML will do what needs to be done to settle B down again and im sure part of it will be the suggestion of taking her to work. She has pondered this b4 but was woried re the environment "noisy/hyper dogs" bouncing up and down in the kennels all around her. But im sure she may give her a try.
 
F80 - I generally get a bit annoyed and upset when people say I haven't bothered to house or toilet train my dog. And although you say your horses have turn out, you thought nothing of a large stallion being kept in a garden, you actually deffended it?

I will be taking B to work when there is a space available for her. I have taken in what everyone has said, I want the best for my dog so will obviously try everything to settle her.
 
littlemisslauren said:
F80 - I generally get a bit annoyed and upset when people say I haven't bothered to house or toilet train my dog. And although you say your horses have turn out, you thought nothing of a large stallion being kept in a garden, you actually deffended it?

I will be taking B to work when there is a space available for her. I have taken in what everyone has said, I want the best for my dog so will obviously try everything to settle her.
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At no point did I say YOU had not bothered to toilet train your dog what I said is the crate is often used for as a lazy alternative to house training, I do believe at that time I was pointing out the negative ways a crate 'can' be used.

As for the statement where "I have no problem in ppl keeping a large stallion in a garden" this goes to give an example to when ppl jump to conclusions from one photo alone. I did in fact speak in length to the stallions owner via PM and know the stallion has a large area of turnout at the back of the house which reaches legal requirements, her stable is in the front and unfortunately she made the mistake of posting a picture of him in that area - what a terrible owner eh? I would in fact disagree shame on the ppl who have judged her whole managment of the horse from a single picture. Anyway her horse really has nothing to do with this thread.

LML I do hope you find a solution to the issue in hand, I think taking her to work is worth a try so good luck with that, but please try to not hand out personal insults in the future to ppl who are merely trying to help.
 
I don't have anything to add to this thread in terms of training advice for LML as it seems she is doing her best for Betsy and the changes she has made seem to be working so far :)

I do just want to make a couple of points *puts on hard hat* :D

I don't crate my dogs now at all but i used to and they do have their place. In fact it was the best thing I ever did for my big lurcher Oscar who had bad seperation anxiety when I got him and was a danger to himself when I left him despite the company of other steadier, older dogs. He used to sprint round whatever room we left him in (we tried different places over a period of time to try and get him to settle) and get himself so wound up that, among other things, he knocked the tv off its stand, ripped up the flooring, chewed shoes etc and on one terrifying occasion chewed up a cotton reel that had a needle stuck in it (which was put on a high shelf we thought was out of his reach). At this point we got a crate and it seemed that the physical restrictions it placed upon him gave him a real sense of security plus the fact that he couldn't run around meant he couldn't wind himself up furtherand do any damage which meant we were more relaxed leaving him and returning to him. Happy days all round :) and we kept using his crate for at lest 5 years plus reintroducing it when we moved house or stayed with friends etc. At no time did he ever seem scared or reluctant to enter it, on the contrary he usually went straight to sleep in it!

One factor that seems to have been ignored in this thread at least is that when the people (i.e. entertainment lol) are out of the house most dogs just go to sleep until their return (unless they have seperation anxiety in which case they freak out and damage stuff). This has been proven in several cases - and at least one that I know of on this forum - by people who have filmed their dogs while they are out to see what they get up to and had to sit through 8 hours of footage of the dog snoring :rolleyes: plus many people say their dogs don't touch chews or toys either until their owners return so therefore putting a dog in a crate during this time doesn't restrict their activities much at all it seems! In fact my own dogs, who i am lucky enough to be able to have with me all day, will often sleep all day after their morning walk (the two skinnydogs virtually hibernate in winter :rolleyes:) and I don't think they would notice if their bed was in a crate or not.

There is a huge difference between a dog spending a long time in a crate while the owners are at work while it still gets enough exercise, food and attention during the rest of the day; and abuse of a crate when a dog is shut away all the time because it is in the way / too exuberant / annoying but doesn't have all its other needs met.

It is not my intention to point a finger or insult anyone at all but I think it is vitally important to look at the situation as a whole in each case and not get stuck in a rut of X is right and Y is wrong every time - actually it would be worth everyone looking at Cave Canem's "Interesting Linky" :)

Reading that back it looks like I am trying to start Crategate II which I'm not, (actually I don't have particularly strong feelings on crates at all, I just hate narrow-minded single-solution training and realise we all have that tendency at some point in our lives when we find a solution that works) but I'm going to post this anyway because I think it needs to be said. Sorry for the long-winded post but it feels good to get that off my chest!!
 
Brownmare said:
I don't have anything to add to this thread in terms of training advice for LML as it seems she is doing her best for Betsy and the changes she has made seem to be working so far :)

I do just want to make a couple of points *puts on hard hat* :D

I don't crate my dogs now at all but i used to and they do have their place. In fact it was the best thing I ever did for my big lurcher Oscar who had bad seperation anxiety when I got him and was a danger to himself when I left him despite the company of other steadier, older dogs. He used to sprint round whatever room we left him in (we tried different places over a period of time to try and get him to settle) and get himself so wound up that, among other things, he knocked the tv off its stand, ripped up the flooring, chewed shoes etc and on one terrifying occasion chewed up a cotton reel that had a needle stuck in it (which was put on a high shelf we thought was out of his reach). At this point we got a crate and it seemed that the physical restrictions it placed upon him gave him a real sense of security plus the fact that he couldn't run around meant he couldn't wind himself up furtherand do any damage which meant we were more relaxed leaving him and returning to him. Happy days all round :) and we kept using his crate for at lest 5 years plus reintroducing it when we moved house or stayed with friends etc. At no time did he ever seem scared or reluctant to enter it, on the contrary he usually went straight to sleep in it!

One factor that seems to have been ignored in this thread at least is that when the people (i.e. entertainment lol) are out of the house most dogs just go to sleep until their return (unless they have seperation anxiety in which case they freak out and damage stuff). This has been proven in several cases - and at least one that I know of on this forum - by people who have filmed their dogs while they are out to see what they get up to and had to sit through 8 hours of footage of the dog snoring :rolleyes: plus many people say their dogs don't touch chews or toys either until their owners return so therefore putting a dog in a crate during this time doesn't restrict their activities much at all it seems! In fact my own dogs, who i am lucky enough to be able to have with me all day, will often sleep all day after their morning walk (the two skinnydogs virtually hibernate in winter :rolleyes:) and I don't think they would notice if their bed was in a crate or not.

There is a huge difference between a dog spending a long time in a crate while the owners are at work while it still gets enough exercise, food and attention during the rest of the day; and abuse of a crate when a dog is shut away all the time because it is in the way / too exuberant / annoying but doesn't have all its other needs met.

It is not my intention to point a finger or insult anyone at all but I think it is vitally important to look at the situation as a whole in each case and not get stuck in a rut of X is right and Y is wrong every time - actually it would be worth everyone looking at Cave Canem's "Interesting Linky" :)

Reading that back it looks like I am trying to start Crategate II which I'm not, (actually I don't have particularly strong feelings on crates at all, I just hate narrow-minded single-solution training and realise we all have that tendency at some point in our lives when we find a solution that works) but I'm going to post this anyway because I think it needs to be said. Sorry for the long-winded post but it feels good to get that off my chest!!
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It seem like in your case with the Lurcher the crate has actually helped the dog control its tendancy of winding itself up when left, the crate has worked as a solution to a problem as it does in many situations.
I fear many ppl are too quick to class their dog as having seperation anxiety, and I would suggest (think this was actually suggested earlier in the thread) setting up a camera whilst you are abcent from the house.
Some think because the house has been turned upside down whilst they are away the dog 'must' have seperation anxiety when in fact it can be down to simple boredom (BM just wan to clarify im not suggesting this is the case for your Lurcher, in case I get pounced on for suggesting this is where im aiming my comment ;) )
All along in this thread (if you read every single one of my replies on here) you will see I am in fact in favour of a crate if used in the correct manner.
I do like to see a young dog being trained in a crate but feel it must be introduced into the house envorinment between the age of 4 to 12 months (depending on the individual dog). By then the animal is old enough to know that messing in the house is not acceptable and chewing the furnature shouldnt be done. It also gives the animal a bit more space to move about, I know my dogs play when left in the house as the toy box is usually emptied and toys are usually spread al over the floor.
If your dog feels safe within the crate then leaving the door open and letting the dog come and go as it wants may help it feel more secure.
I do have a problem with a dog being left in the crate through the day for longer than 2 hours in total (even if its let out for a pee inbetween) this is my own views, I dont expect everyone feels the same which I accept but personally I do feel it is unfair on the animal and in the long run will create future problems in the animals behaviour. I am intitled to my own opinion and would offer this adivce if someone asked for it in the future, I would also try and explain why I feel this way and why I feel leaving a dog crated for longer is unfair on the animal.
People I guess need to respect that we all have our own opinions and views (if we all thought the same, forums would be very boring and unecessary places!) and people need to understand if they start a thread asking for help then each person who chooses to give advice will say what 'they' believe to be the correct way to improve the problem.
I dont think anyone posts advice and expects the OP to read and 'do as they say' but I for one find it very beneficial to read everyones point of view and Ill perhaps take a bit of advice from each suggestion if I feel it may help my situation.
I would never stoop so low as to throw personal insults back at someone who has bothered to read my thread and has tried to put the best advice they can across to the OP (unless that person was obviously just being cruel or intentionally trying to start a virtual punch up which yes I have experienced in the past- not nice :( )
 
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Brownmare said:
I don't have anything to add to this thread in terms of training advice for LML as it seems she is doing her best for Betsy and the changes she has made seem to be working so far :)

I do just want to make a couple of points *puts on hard hat* :D

I don't crate my dogs now at all but i used to and they do have their place. In fact it was the best thing I ever did for my big lurcher Oscar who had bad seperation anxiety when I got him and was a danger to himself when I left him despite the company of other steadier, older dogs. He used to sprint round whatever room we left him in (we tried different places over a period of time to try and get him to settle) and get himself so wound up that, among other things, he knocked the tv off its stand, ripped up the flooring, chewed shoes etc and on one terrifying occasion chewed up a cotton reel that had a needle stuck in it (which was put on a high shelf we thought was out of his reach). At this point we got a crate and it seemed that the physical restrictions it placed upon him gave him a real sense of security plus the fact that he couldn't run around meant he couldn't wind himself up furtherand do any damage which meant we were more relaxed leaving him and returning to him. Happy days all round :) and we kept using his crate for at lest 5 years plus reintroducing it when we moved house or stayed with friends etc. At no time did he ever seem scared or reluctant to enter it, on the contrary he usually went straight to sleep in it!

One factor that seems to have been ignored in this thread at least is that when the people (i.e. entertainment lol) are out of the house most dogs just go to sleep until their return (unless they have seperation anxiety in which case they freak out and damage stuff). This has been proven in several cases - and at least one that I know of on this forum - by people who have filmed their dogs while they are out to see what they get up to and had to sit through 8 hours of footage of the dog snoring :rolleyes: plus many people say their dogs don't touch chews or toys either until their owners return so therefore putting a dog in a crate during this time doesn't restrict their activities much at all it seems! In fact my own dogs, who i am lucky enough to be able to have with me all day, will often sleep all day after their morning walk (the two skinnydogs virtually hibernate in winter :rolleyes:) and I don't think they would notice if their bed was in a crate or not.

There is a huge difference between a dog spending a long time in a crate while the owners are at work while it still gets enough exercise, food and attention during the rest of the day; and abuse of a crate when a dog is shut away all the time because it is in the way / too exuberant / annoying but doesn't have all its other needs met.

It is not my intention to point a finger or insult anyone at all but I think it is vitally important to look at the situation as a whole in each case and not get stuck in a rut of X is right and Y is wrong every time - actually it would be worth everyone looking at Cave Canem's "Interesting Linky" :)

Reading that back it looks like I am trying to start Crategate II which I'm not, (actually I don't have particularly strong feelings on crates at all, I just hate narrow-minded single-solution training and realise we all have that tendency at some point in our lives when we find a solution that works) but I'm going to post this anyway because I think it needs to be said. Sorry for the long-winded post but it feels good to get that off my chest!!
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Well said:)
I do think as much as people take offence at some replies (I don't think LML did), as the reply I read fom her was a "I have changed a few things today, thanks for help and a "the crate stays", but I also find some on here/and other forums do spit their dummies or get rather shirty when their advice is not taken.
Everyone is entitled to an opionon/to give advice and to take what advice they want. Happy days:)
I also will add, just as SA cannot be the blame for everything, neither can boredom, a simple disturbance or change in routine can see any dogs behaviour change, and this behaviour would be displayed in or out of the crate, to discard of a crate/secure area hence a change of behaviour occurs and further change a rotuine IMO is not a good thing to do.
But then again thats only IMO, so I think you are right in keeping the crate LML and upping exercise and changing how you come and go (be more aware, of her being aware:p an very sensible when u are still in a rented house:p
 
CAYLA said:
Well said:)
I do think as much as people take offence at some replies (I don't think LML did)
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littlemisslauren said:
I thought you were just ignorant, turns out you are a hell of a lot more than that:rolleyes:

I'm off to tell my dog that she should get out of her crate because it is a horrible scary prison, thought she is sleeping in there with the door open.

Jog on pet.
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Hmm I might have to disagree there Cayla ;)

Ill be 'jogging off then' from this thread, I wish you luck in the future LML with Betsy, hope the bringing her to work idea helps :)
 
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Hello,

My advice is to leave a radio on during the day, it makes it seem as if people are still in. We have dogs in kennels and they permently have a radio on. If shes distructive of bedding etc when in a cage, remove it to prevent her from getting the chance to. Her behaiour may just be a phase as she is still a youngster.

hope it helps
 
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