Dog ears: genetics, breed standards and ethics

Pearlsacarolsinger

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That is how you lose a breed's type - it's like saying we should allow over height connemaras be bred from and then suddenly they aren't ponies anymore šŸ¤·ā€ā™€ļø
You lose a breed type by breeding from dogs that don't match the standard and if you fiddle with their ears to meet the standard artificially, it is very difficult to know whether they will pass on the desired genes.
 

druid

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You lose a breed type by breeding from dogs that don't match the standard and if you fiddle with their ears to meet the standard artificially, it is very difficult to know whether they will pass on the desired genes.

Nope, no animal is perfect and if every other point of the dog matches the breed standard, the health testing is excellent and the tempraments are good then ears which have been helped out during teething having been perfect before hand are a non issue. We will have to disagree on this one as you maybe haven't dealt with the nuances of breeding a rare and vulnerable breed and trying to keep it alive while not breeding a bottleneck genetically.
 

Pearlsacarolsinger

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Nope, no animal is perfect and if every other point of the dog matches the breed standard, the health testing is excellent and the tempraments are good then ears which have been helped out during teething having been perfect before hand are a non issue. We will have to disagree on this one as you maybe haven't dealt with the nuances of breeding a rare and vulnerable breed and trying to keep it alive while not breeding a bottleneck genetically.
But you haven't kept the breed standard alive, if you have to artificially modify the ears of pups to replicate the 'perfect' dog, have you?
Judges could just as easily weigh up 'imperfect' ears against other 'faults' as the decision- making that they do now.
You mentioned Connemaras, how do you feel about Tennessee Walking Horses?
 

CanteringCarrot

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Now I'm going to be looking at my dogs ears. I feel like they both have rather symmetrical ears, but do they? šŸ¤£

I won't mess with a dogs ears because I don't give a fig about a seemingly meaningless esthetic. I also just don't have a lot of respect for certain types of dog showing either. Especially when cropping and docking is promoted and so widespread. I am focusing on that because I have a Cane Corso, and cropped ears drive me batty. There's no purpose.

Ear cropping and tail docking was historically done so no human or animal could grab onto the dogs tail or ears. They were weak spots, so they were chopped off, essentially. This sort of made some "sense" when used for protection, in war, or hunting large game.

No pet or show dog needs to be cropped, and people will site BS like, "tradition" "no or less ear infections" "lop ears always have issues/bacteria/infections." I've seem some breeders defend ear cropping, promote it, and put forth BS "facts" on why it should be done.

The fact that dogs with alterations are promoted and allowed to be in the show ring does not impress me at all.
 

Aperchristmas

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I am firmly of the opinion that if you need to make a physical intervention to keep something to a breed standard, then it's utter b******* for aesthetics only, and a complete waste of time. (this obviously doesn't include veterinary intervention for a genuine physical issue)

There is a doberman and a cane corso who live near me (different owners) - both had their ears either taped and/or glued as young dogs and it was awful to see. Their ears now just look odd, it's so clear that they weren't naturally this shape, and these poor dogs had their ears closed up for months on end just so they'd look a certain way. I have to admit that I pretty much glare at their owners when I see them - I just have zero respect for anyone who would make their animal uncomfortable for purely aesthetic reasons.

Apologies to anyone I may offend - I usually pride myself on being open and even-minded, but this is just one of those things I can't get my head around.
 

malwhit

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Isn't taping ears into shape a form of cheating for show/breeding dogs?
You lose a breed type by breeding from dogs that don't match the standard and if you fiddle with their ears to meet the standard artificially, it is very difficult to know whether they will pass on the desired genes.
I totally agree with this, if two dogs are bred together which have had their ears "helped" for the show ring you will just end up with puppies with faulty ears.
 

Clodagh

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I won't mess with a dogs ears because I don't give a fig about a seemingly meaningless esthetic. I also just don't have a lot of respect for certain types of dog showing either. Especially when cropping and docking is promoted and so widespread. I am focusing on that because I have a Cane Corso, and cropped ears drive me batty. There's no purpose.
Apparently, having accidentally fallen down an Fb reel wormhole last night, they prevent cauliflower ear. Who knew!
No idea how many dogs have passed through my life and only 2 have had haematoma.
 

MurphysMinder

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Interestingly, when a vet carries out surgery that alters a dogs conformation (and also c sections) they are "encouraged" to report to the KC but not legally required to. When my heeler had surgery to correct a bent front leg the vet did ask if I planned to show or breed from him, but as I wasn't then nothing further was done. I suspect as he is a leading ortho surgeon with quite strong opinions on breeding from correct stock he may have notified the KC if my intentions were different.
Obviously ears that aren't to standard are not in any way detrimental to a dogs health or welfare, but it is kind of the same with regard to whether the dog presented to the judge is as it was born.
 

skinnydipper

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They either meet the breed standard or they don't and not being a dog snob it wouldn't bother me either way.

Ears, tails (and dew claws) shouldn't be removed or meddled with unless there is a very good reason to do so. IMHO a dog's conformation not meeting breed standard is not a good reason.

Nothing to do with showing I know but dew claws, why would anybody remove those 'just in case'? Dogs need them for traction and stability.

Nature is pretty good at providing what a dog needs, just leave well alone.
 
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CanteringCarrot

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Apparently, having accidentally fallen down an Fb reel wormhole last night, they prevent cauliflower ear. Who knew!
No idea how many dogs have passed through my life and only 2 have had haematoma.

I saw a comment somewhere that said something like, "You've obviously never dealt with cauliflower ear" and I thought, what the h?

Who would've guessed that cropping is such a positive thing for animal welfare. No cauliflower ear, infections, injuries, or other things that those poor lop eared dogs deal with all the time! šŸ™„
 

CanteringCarrot

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They either meet the breed standard or they don't and not being a dog snob it wouldn't bother me either way.

Ears, tails (and dew claws) shouldn't be removed or meddled with unless there is a very good reason to do so. IMHO a dog's conformation not meeting breed standard is not a good reason.

Nothing to with showing I know but dew claws, why would anybody remove those 'just in case'? Dogs need them for traction and stability.

Nature is pretty good at providing what a dog needs, just leave well alone.

Are you talking about front and hind dew claws?

Hind dew claws are interesting to me since not all dogs are born with them, but I guess they have a purpose.
 

druid

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How is the glue removed?

It just falls off naturally, it's a sort of soft flexible latex so falls off after a few days to week. It's only on skin, not hair (the inner ear fold.) I've never seen any irritation etc from it or I simply wouldn't use it.
 

druid

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But you haven't kept the breed standard alive, if you have to artificially modify the ears of pups to replicate the 'perfect' dog, have you?
Judges could just as easily weigh up 'imperfect' ears against other 'faults' as the decision- making that they do now.
You mentioned Connemaras, how do you feel about Tennessee Walking Horses?
Again, we will have to disagree on breed standards - you cannot just breed from perfection, perfection doesn't exist. You have to use the stock you have keeping type, health and temprament in mind and do what you can. Again, this dog is from 2 parents with perfect ears. I feel we are going round in cicrcles now to be honest though.

As to Walkers, I've never worked with them, I know nothing of the breed history or standards to comment on if they've changed type.
 

druid

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Isn't taping ears into shape a form of cheating for show/breeding dogs?

I totally agree with this, if two dogs are bred together which have had their ears "helped" for the show ring you will just end up with puppies with faulty ears.

No, it's not considered cheating any more than clipping or grooming a coat.

No one in our breed would use 2 dogs with poor ears, but there is so many other points to consider though that ok x fantastic ears wouldn't be uncommon. I'd rather use ok ears and avoid poor movement or hind limb angles. Ears aren't going to affect the dog's health or soundness long term. Just my opinion!
 

CorvusCorax

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50 odd years ago GSD pups were often born with hind dew claws but I haven't seen one with a hind dew claw in 30 years.

It's a right balls when dew claws rip and it's a horrible injury to rehab, but they're vital for balance and stability. The dogs I've known that have damaged theirs were not exercised or kept fit the way I would do with mine, is all I'll say....
 

Moobli

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That is how you lose a breed's type - it's like saying we should allow over height connemaras be bred from and then suddenly they aren't ponies anymore šŸ¤·ā€ā™€ļø

A percentage of the breed have natural perfect button ears, and in fact Finn did as a pup. Ears tend to fly during teething due to the calcium demands on the pup's system. Supporting the correct structure during that period doesn't bother me. You cannot make a bad ear good; the set, fold and leather shape/size must all be naturally good before teething or you are at nothing trying to work with them.

Breed type has never been a problem in the border collie, maybe because function was always the end goal. There all different kinds of ear set, shape etc but all easily recognised as border collies.
 

druid

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Breed type has never been a problem in the border collie, maybe because function was always the end goal. There all different kinds of ear set, shape etc but all easily recognised as border collies.

In show collies is there a prefered ear set? They look very different to working collies. So many breeds are split form and function now!
 

Moobli

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In show collies is there a prefered ear set? They look very different to working collies. So many breeds are split form and function now!
Yes I believe they like the ā€œtippedā€ look so I guess itā€™s likely some are ā€œhelpedā€ into position.

Edited to add : checked KC website as I know very little about KC BCs.

ā€œEars​

Medium size and texture, set well apart. Carried erect or semi-erect and sensitive in useā€
 

Titchy Reindeer

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Our lovely departed smooth collie girl had perfect ears for her breed - upright but tipped over. They were completely natural and didnā€™t need any interference but they werenā€™t obviously ā€˜perfectā€™ when she was tiny and the breeder told us to tape and glue them - we didnā€™t. However virtually every smooth collie breeder in America seems to tape and glue as a matter of course which means that nobody knows which lines have ā€˜perfectā€™ ears and which donā€™t šŸ¤·ā€ā™€ļø
Yes, I was wondering if any dogs have "to standards" ears anymore... I'm sure there are some, but it would seem it could be hard to tell unless the breeder/owner of the dog told you so.
 

Titchy Reindeer

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Breed type has never been a problem in the border collie, maybe because function was always the end goal. There all different kinds of ear set, shape etc but all easily recognised as border collies.
I recently found out that over here in France, you can't get a border collie confirmed of a breed standard. The can only be confirmed from herding. So basically, nobody cares about their ears! It also explains why so many border collies are not registered over here.
Actually, I went on a course last weekend where there was a large number of "sheep dogs". I kept having to ask if they where australian shepherds, american miniature shepherds (which are sometimes bigger than the aussies - I do wonder if there is some sort of con going on there...) or border collies.
 
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