Dog owner being sued for £5m after rider was thrown from horse

[Wishfilly]

Given they had cantered and then the rider had come to a halt, I assume the ride leader did assess that the situation had changed and stopped the ride. But unfortunately, that's when the accident happened.

The next step might be dismounting the ride, but there's lots of reasons why that's a difficult choice for a ride leader to make and it may not be the safest course of action.

Being a ride leader is hugely difficult and responsible job- often not well paid, either. Of course, it can be a great job, too! But I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that ride leaders can prevent all accidents from happening, if only they make the right decisions.

 

[McFluff]

I really feel for the rider here. Yes, we all take a risk when we get on a horse, but it is hard to accept when your situation was caused by the selfish/ignorant act of someone else.

I‘m lucky enough to ride on the beach weekly - and have done so for many years. The horses are all very used to dogs, and in 99% of situations the dogs are called back, the horses stay calm, and we all are fine. We have a strict protocol, you ask people to put loose dogs on a lead, and if it’s busy, you leave the beach. Even with this, over the years we’ve had some nasty incidents. All caused by the minority of dog owners who have no clue and/or don’t care. I do have to say that lots of dogs and owners are lovely, but it feels like the minority of bad is growing since lockdown.

Over the years we’ve had very similar situations, and I’ve seen horses that have never reacted before dislodge their rider if a dog is particularly aggressive. The most recent one is a total dude of a horse, who kept it together until the dog actually bit him.
The worrying trend at the moment is people who’ve ‘rescued‘ dogs from abroad and have no thought of how they will behave in a public place. I’ve seen more issues recently of walkers being hassled by these dogs. I can’t help feeling that it is only a matter of time before there is an injury to a walker or a child round here…. I really hope not, as that will impact on all the responsible people too.

 

[Wishfilly]

I didn't say the horses should be bombproof.

I said the ride leader should have identified the loose dog as a hazard. There should have been two guides within the ride especially on a beach which may be busy or have loose dogs. One of ride leaders should have asked the dog owner to put his dog lead before they cantered or waited until they were really really far away. One should never be complacent around loose dogs. I can understand why the client who may be in a desperate situation may have been advised by solicitors to go for both the riding stable and the dog owners. I can also understand the pressure on ride leaders to give clients the experience they want which is lots of cantering on a beach and they might not want to say to clients sorry we are going to have to walk as there are loose dogs that might chase us.

The dog owner should have known if they are an experienced dog owner that dogs can be unpredictable and got his dog on the lead. I think sadly a lot of dog owners do not realise what could happen if their dog approaches a horse because they have no knowledge of horses. I don't know how this would be rectified.

So, what if the dog owner says no? What if the dog is initially far away and makes a sudden run for you?

The accident happened, according to reports, when the rider's horse was stationary. Obviously we don't know why that was, but for example, it could be they stopped cantering after the dog started to chase, and the ride leader was about to call to the owner when the accident happened. Things can change very quickly.

It's all very well saying ride leaders should be strong enough to remain in walk, but on a shared beach there are always going to be hazards, and sometimes you have to make a reasonable judgement.

 

[Goldenstar]

I grew up on the beach .
We where taught always face the dog and would keep turning the horse to face .
As kids we would leg it at top speed if it was low tide Ford the river and disappear into the distance , it was different then .

 

[ponynutz]

If dog didn't need to be on lead by law it certainly will be an interesting case and rider is likely to lose however the law might therefore be changed to include some common sense.

Most dog walkers I know upon seeing a horse will lead their dog and stand with it out of the way and I'd do the same.

Similarly most horse riders I know upon seeing a dog would take it easy and if the dog wasn't on a lead would request it to be if they knew horse was likely to spook (if it was a riding school horse that I didn't know I'd just assume it would spook to save any potential danger).

Given the dog ran after horses owner should definitely have put a lead on a dog that could clearly cause an issue. Horses won't be interrupting the whole walk...

 

[Bob notacob]

Horse owners are subjected to a legal principle ,no fault liability. If a horse is let out of your field by an unknown person ,you are liable for any losses it causes because it is acting in accord with its nature. I would argue strongly ,that dog owners are to be held liable for exactly the same reason. The case that set this precedent was Mirvahedy V Henley.

 

[ester]

It would seem tricky to me to argue that your dog was under control if it was also underneath a horse, regardless of any local lead laws. . .

 

[Bob notacob]

It would seem tricky to me to argue that your dog was under control if it was also underneath a horse, regardless of any local lead laws. . .

indeed!

 

[Bob notacob]

Sometimes \I wish I had studied law. The master of the rolls told me I should .Trouble was ,I knew I would take every case to heart.

 

[Wishfilly]

Although, if your argument is that you sent your dog under a horse deliberately, surely that must make you somehow culpable in any accident caused?

 

[SilverLinings]

I am alarmed by the large number of dog owners who seem to have absolutely no idea that they are liable if their dog causes an accident of any sort (with very few exceptions), and without insurance they could potentially loose their house to pay the costs. Local bylaws about whether or not a dog should be on a lead in a certain place are irrelevant, the law states that dogs should be under control whether on public or private land, and if you can't control your dog off-lead (excellent recall, keep it to heel if required, get it's attention instantly when needed) then it should be on a lead when there is a chance that other people or animals could be around. I think far too many owners seem to believe that they would only be in trouble legally if their dog bit/attacked someone.

To illustrate this: about 10 years ago a lady I knew through work was walking in a park with a friend when an overexcited labrador ran past and knocked her over. She sustained a complex leg fracture requiring several lots of surgery and nearly a year off work (couldn't drive or weight bear). She successfully sued the dog owner for loss of earnings as she couldn't have survived financially otherwise. She sued for thousands rather than hundreds of thousands or millions, but this would have been different if she had broken her neck when she fell and been paralysed. The dog was said to be harmless and friendly, but was young and known to ignore the owner when he tried to recall it. That dog was 'out of control' according to the law, despite the fact that it was 'just playing' according to the owner.

 

[SO1]

You are at least then doing all you can to reduce the risks as much as possible.

We don't know what happened in this situation maybe they did ask the owner to put the dog on lead and he refused and they didn't canter until the dog was very far away and it suddenly saw the horses and started chasing.

In that case the rider would have little case for sueing the stables. I do think most riding stables do make people sign disclaimers now saying that clients are riding at their own risk and that riding is a dangerous activity. We even have a notice up at the livery yard saying this.

The risk is less if a dog follows you in walk as the owner is more likely to be able to grab the dog before it gets under the horses legs.

If you are cantering and the dog is chasing it is more scary for horse and the owner if they can't recall won't be able to run fast enough to grab their dog. Horses may have been desensitised to dogs barking or coming close by dogs being on a yard but it is hard to create a situation where it is chased by a dog at speed. The dog doesn't know you are going to pull the horse up and may not stop in time and therefore end up between the horses legs the stomach is vulnerable area for a horse and having a predator under its stomach that has been chasing them at speed could be frightening even for a horse that is good with dogs.

I know it is boring but I think you cannot be too careful about being around loose dogs. There seems to be so many incidents not just with horses but with children and also with dogs attacking other dogs.

Yes there will be other hazards on beaches but they are unlikely to persue or attack a horse. If you see someone flying a kite you can at least move away from it and it won't persue you. My pony excellent with dogs and traffic absolutely terrified of any sort of fly tipping, plastic bags or rubbish but as least none of these persue or attack him even though he thinks they will do.

I do think if you own a dog you have a responsibility to learn enough about dogs to understand that they can be unpredictable when off the lead and if you are sharing public space with others be very careful and grab your dog or put it on the lead if others are passing until there is a decent gap between you.

My sister never lets her dog off the lead if she can see other people or dogs as she has a staffie and she knows people are often scared of staffies.

So, what if the dog owner says no? What if the dog is initially far away and makes a sudden run for you?

The accident happened, according to reports, when the rider's horse was stationary. Obviously we don't know why that was, but for example, it could be they stopped cantering after the dog started to chase, and the ride leader was about to call to the owner when the accident happened. Things can change very quickly.

It's all very well saying ride leaders should be strong enough to remain in walk, but on a shared beach there are always going to be hazards, and sometimes you have to make a reasonable judgement.

 

[Lois Lame]

'Most people are not knowledgeable about what could potentially frighten a horse. I had someone kick a football towards my pony and it narrowly missed his head. I do not expect members of the public to have this knowledge.'

I totally agree with this statement from SO1. The average non-horse person has no idea at all about horses and their riders. A lot is assumed: that a rider has absolute control and is 100% skillful at riding unless falling off every five minutes.

 

[Fred66]

We don’t know the circumstances of this incident, the man has suffered a life changing event and presumably needs money to enable his life to be easier, his lawyer is obviously going to paint the picture of the dog being out of control and causing the incident.
For all we know the Westie was on the beach with its owner minding its own business and the riders came towards them. The Westie may have just stood its ground and barked a warning, and not actually have been out of control at all.
The horse might have reacted not to the dog but to being halted whilst the other riders walked away.
Whilst I agree that dog owners should have control of their dogs the same is true of horse riders in respect of their horse. How many people continue to hack out despite the horse not being good in traffic? How many people can hand on heart say that they always have 100% control of their horse at all times?

 

[SEL]

We don’t know the circumstances of this incident, the man has suffered a life changing event and presumably needs money to enable his life to be easier, his lawyer is obviously going to paint the picture of the dog being out of control and causing the incident.
For all we know the Westie was on the beach with its owner minding its own business and the riders came towards them. The Westie may have just stood its ground and barked a warning, and not actually have been out of control at all.
The horse might have reacted not to the dog but to being halted whilst the other riders walked away.
Whilst I agree that dog owners should have control of their dogs the same is true of horse riders in respect of their horse. How many people continue to hack out despite the horse not being good in traffic? How many people can hand on heart say that they always have 100% control of their horse at all times?

But we do know because they've made representation to the courts. The dog ran towards the horses, ended up under the injured man's horse and he was thrown - none of that seems to be in doubt.

"Perhaps because the horses had passed at speed, perhaps out of curiosity or perhaps out of a sense of fun, Max turned and ran towards the group of horses who had just passed him,' says Mr Arentsen." (Dog owner's barrister)

 

[ycbm]

without insurance they could potentially loose their house to pay the costs

I'm sorry to nitpick but I don't think you can be thrown out of your home, though the debt would probably hang over your head until you died and all your spare money would have to go to it.
.

 

[ycbm]

Whilst I agree that dog owners should have control of their dogs the same is true of horse riders in respect of their horse. How many people continue to hack out despite the horse not being good in traffic? How many people can hand on heart say that they always have 100% control of their horse at all times?

What the devil has that got to do with a man being in a wheelchair for the rest of his life after a dog ran between the legs of a horse he was on?
.

 

[blitznbobs]

I dont understamd how they were starting their second canter and stationery at the same time… did the rest of the ride
Leave bonfire behind?

 

[blitznbobs]

I'm sorry to nitpick but I don't think you can be thrown out of your home, though the debt would probably hang over your head until you died and all your spare money would have to go to it.
.

You can definitely lose your home if you own it

 

[Red-1]

I find it all sad. I feel for the man, who has a changed life and needs to fund adaptations.

Selfishly, I also feel for me. My last horse never made it to the beach as I felt confident I would control her there, but was too worried about what she would do if a dog attacked. I felt it *could* have ended badly, so didn't go.

I hope to take the current horse, but will plan it a lot more carefully than the carefree days of boxing up and turning up.

I think many people will have 3rd party liability insurance with their house contents insurance. That would cover the dog, as well as anything freaky you may do, like run for a bus and go headlong into a "insert valuable thing of choice" and break it.

 

[ycbm]

You can definitely lose your home if you own it

I think only if you subsequently fail to make payments that you have agreed to make against the debt?

If you have a claim of, say £5 million, against you and have a single home worth, say £500k, I don't think you can be forced, at the outset, to sell your home and make yourself homeless. My understanding is that you would agree a payment plan of the maximum you can afford to pay, just like a bankruptcy (and in fact many people in that situation would just bankrupt themselves).

I may well be wrong, but I have always understood that you don't lose your home to pay the initial damages, only if you fail to keep up the regular payments towards paying off the debt.

Whatever, this case underlines the need for everyone to have 3rd party/public liability insurance.
.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'm sorry to nitpick but I don't think you can be thrown out of your home, though the debt would probably hang over your head until you died and all your spare money would have to go to it.
.

You can if you own it and are required to pay damages to the injured party. There would be no point if you rent your accommodation.

 

[criso]

"Perhaps because the horses had passed at speed, perhaps out of curiosity or perhaps out of a sense of fun, Max turned and ran towards the group of horses who had just passed him,' says Mr Arentsen." (Dog owner's barrister)

I think that phrase "sense of fun" says a lot. I have had someone whose dog was chasing horses in a field say "he likes to play with the horses'

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I think only if you subsequently fail to make payments that you have agreed to make against the debt?

If you have a claim of, say £5 million, against you and have a single home worth, say £500k, I don't think you can be forced, at the outset, to sell your home and make yourself homeless. My understanding is that you would agree a payment plan of the maximum you can afford to pay, just like a bankruptcy (and in fact many people in that situation would just bankrupt themselves).

I may well be wrong, but I have always understood that you don't lose your home to pay the initial damages, only if you fail to keep up the regular payments towards paying off the debt.

Whatever, this case underlines the need for everyone to have 3rd party/public liability insurance.
.

Generally, if it means someone unable to meet the fine/charge etc and would be made homeless, then a legal simple charge would/could be registered at the HMLR against the property. This would then be cleared only when the property was sold or the amount paid off to 3rd party named and then application can be made to have it lifted.
It's quite convoluted tho and am on phone so not typing all out now tho.

 

[cauda equina]

I think that phrase "sense of fun" says a lot. I have had someone whose dog was chasing horses in a field say "he likes to play with the horses'

Similar to when a dog lunges towards your horse, because 'He just wants to say hello'

 

[Fred66]

What the devil has that got to do with a man being in a wheelchair for the rest of his life after a dog ran between the legs of a horse he was on?
.

We don’t know that is what happened. We are speculating based on what has been presented so far. The defence barrister said towards not underneath.

People on here have said they only let their dogs off leads if they have 100% recall. No one can be 100% sure that they have 100% recall. How do you train them and test this if you never let them off their lead?

Horses not under control have led to accidents where 3rd parties have been injured or killed, so it has everything to do with it.

 

[ycbm]

We don’t know that is what happened. We are speculating based on what has been presented so far.

We do know that, it's been presented as the basic facts of the case. I believe that it's undisputed that the dog was under the horse.

People on here have said they only let their dogs off leads if they have 100% recall. No one can be 100% sure that they have 100% recall. How do you train them and test this if you never let them off their lead?

You do it on a long lead where there is additional risk, for example if there are horses around.

Horses not under control have led to accidents where 3rd parties have been injured or killed, so it has everything to do with it.

Sod all to do with this case.





If you have a dog, do you let your dog run free in sight of ridden horses you don't know Fred?
.

 

[Goldenstar]

I happily have my dogs off lead where I can see horses I don’t know they walk beside me, they obliviously because of their lifestyle 100 % horse savvy .

 

[Fred66]

You do it on a long lead where there is additional risk, for example if there are horses around.

Whilst this is obviously the starting point it is not the same at all, at some point the dog would have to be off its lead for you to know it will recall and even if it does no one can be 100% sure

Sod all to do with this case.

The general principle of control of animals in relation to how this impacts on third parties safety is certainly linked to this thread.

If you have a dog, do you let your dog run free in sight of ridden horses you don't know Fred?
.

Have 3 and all are good around horses but don’t let them off the lead near them. My daughter occasionally takes the Labrador out hacking with her, but the other two are not as reliable.

 

[milliepops]

i'd have thought the ideal place for practicing recall which is not yet established, would be something like a dog field, not a beach where there are all kinds of randomers using the same space who might not appreciate your non-recalling dog approaching them.