Dog owner being sued for £5m after rider was thrown from horse

blitznbobs said:
But they do in law - you should be in control of your animal in public - if you are not you are in the wrong
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I don't think you're right about this. It's a legal requirement to be in control of a dog, but I don't think anyone breaks any criminal law if they fall off their horse and it runs home, do they? I've looked and I can't find any laws.

ETA I don't see how it would be possible to even frame a law making it a legal requirement to be in control of a flight animal. Any of us could lose control of a panicked horse any time we ride. Similarly, there's no rule that you have to keep a cat under control, because once they are outside, you can't.
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We also live near 3 or 4 beaches (really it's all one big beach but split into towns, you get the idea) and dogs are almost always under control. Many are kept on their leads and every time we ride you see owners putting their dogs on leads. The only ones that remain off are the ones that don't leave their owner's sides. If people want to continue throwing a ball they'll take their dogs to another part of the beach.

We did have one incident (not with the horses but with our own dogs) where a dog was out of control and came to say hi to our, unfriendly and resource-guarding dog. The ending wasn't a great one... people should be keeping their dogs in control.

Dogs are hunters, horses are prey: fact. If a horse runs a dog is either going to think it's a game and run to play or they're going to think it's a chase and run after.
 
I’m pretty sure he would have to have signed a disclaimer at the riding school before he went out on the hack. As for the dog, I agree it should have been on a lead as it acted in an ‘out of control’ manner.
 
ycbm said:
I don't think you're right about this. It's a legal requirement to be in control of a dog, but I don't think anyone breaks any criminal law if they fall off their horse and it runs home, do they? I've looked and I can't find any laws.

ETA I don't see how it would be possible to even frame a law making it a legal requirement to be in control of a flight animal. Any of us could lose control of a panicked horse any time we ride. Similarly, there's no rule that you have to keep a cat under control, because once they are outside, you can't.
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It is your fault if they cause any damage.

There is an extra act about dogs worrying livestock on farms etc but i dont think that applies on a public beach because livestock shouldn’t be on a public beach - that would be an interesting case - i doubt there is a lot of case law around it. But if you fell off your horse it ran off and caused a crash or damage to someones garden or kicked someone on the way through - yes that is your fault because you are not in control of your animal.

I think there is a misunderstanding of the word illegal - mostly its unlawful not to have control of animals rather than illegal… but i cant remember if the control of dogs act (livestock ) is in the criminal realm or still civil — i doubt many have gone to prison though.
 
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You are legally liable if your horse causes an accident after you've fallen off it, yes. But there is a world of difference between allowing your dog to get under the feet of a horse you don't know and falling off your horse and it running off.

Here's a good article about laws relating to dogs. I don't think there are any such criminal laws relating to control of horses.

https://www.bluecross.org.uk/advice/dog/dog-laws-uk
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ycbm said:
I don't think you're right about this. It's a legal requirement to be in control of a dog, but I don't think anyone breaks any criminal law if they fall off their horse and it runs home, do they? I've looked and I can't find any laws.

ETA I don't see how it would be possible to even frame a law making it a legal requirement to be in control of a flight animal. Any of us could lose control of a panicked horse any time we ride. Similarly, there's no rule that you have to keep a cat under control, because once they are outside, you can't.
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If your horse when lose causes damage to a third parties property or person you are liable no negligence needs to proved .
 
Just a musing- if a dog slips it’s lead/pulls it’s owner over or gets away and causes an accident, could the owner still be responsible coz it was out of control in a public place? Even if the dog got away, rather than being let off.
But if a rider falls off a horse and it bolts and causes an accident, provided they have insurance, I assume they are in no way responsible?
 
Hmm this is a very interesting case. I will be very interested to see where this goes.

My personal opinion I think the judge will award damages to the claimant, but will likely reduce them as they will find partially liability on his/and or riding schools part.

In my opinion this is a case of a six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Firstly the dog should have been under controll and should have been recalled. If the dog had a poor recall it should be on a lead. This is the legally requirement for dog owners regardless of whether there is no legal requirement on that particular beach for dogs to be on a lead.

BUT

That said, I also think as riders we take some responsibility when we choose to get on a horse and there is a certain level of control of a situation I would expect an "experienced" rider to have of their horse even in these sorts of situations. For example an experienced rider should know techniques to try and keep the horse calm and under control e.g. turning horse to face the dog, or if feeling the horse is likely to rear/buck/tank off, circling the horse around and bringing it's head into the shoulder etc.

Also while I completely agree that there is no such thing as a bombproof horse, this seems an extreme reaction from the average steady riding school horse, and imo raises a lot of questions. Were the riding school aware that this horse disliked dogs? Has this horse ever done anything like this before? Has this horse had recently checks to make sure there are no ongoing pain related issues? Are there other factors to consider like the horse had become isolated from the group and panicked?

I think there is more to this case than simply saying it's all down to the dog owner. I will be really interested to hear the outcome.
 
Gallop_Away said:
Also while I completely agree that there is no such thing as a bombproof horse, this seems an extreme reaction from the average steady riding school horse, and imo raises a lot of questions. Were the riding school aware that this horse disliked dogs? Has this horse ever done anything like this before? Has this horse had recently checks to make sure there are no ongoing pain related issues? Are there other factors to consider like the horse had become isolated from the group and panicked?

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This was from the riders lawyer

"Bonfire was comfortable around dogs. The company, which serves 6,000 customers a year, keeps dogs loose at the stables so horses can acclimatise to them and any which are not comfortable around dogs would be sold."

I also think that on balance if the dog was underneath the horse and that the horse bucked at that point, it's more likely to be a reaction to the dog than an underlying pain issue.
 
But then that to me raises even more questions. If this horse was "comfortable around dogs" this reaction to a dog running underneath it seems even more bizarre. Why THIS dog? If the dog had bitten or jumped up at the horse I could understand but presumably this horse has had dogs running around it's legs before without issue?
 
Gallop_Away said:
But then that to me raises even more questions. If this horse was "comfortable around dogs" this reaction to a dog running underneath it seems even more bizarre. Why THIS dog? If the dog had bitten or jumped up at the horse I could understand but presumably this horse has had dogs running around it's legs before without issue?
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It still doesn’t matter. Dog was out of control. Horse reacted. Man fell off and is paralysed.
 
Amymay said:
It still doesn’t matter. Dog was out of control. Horse reacted. Man fell off and is paralysed.
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But I'm afraid it will matter in court. I'm sorry but I don't think this case is as black and white as that, and I don't think a judge will see it that way either.
 
criso said:
"Bonfire was comfortable around dogs. The company, which serves 6,000 customers a year, keeps dogs loose at the stables so horses can acclimatise to them and any which are not comfortable around dogs would be sold."
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I think that this detail will turn out to be very relevant in the case.

There are dogs that road around at liberty in all four yards where I have ridden in the town where I live, and I expect that this is very common.

Where I have my regular Sunday morning lesson there are three dogs. The oldest (dark coated with a kind of Labrador shape) doesn't move around much, between the shade and the sunshine depending on if he feels to cold or to hot.

The other two (a Collie cross and a Malinois cross) are young and much more boisterous but are very respectful around the horses sand never get to close. When we are riding in the arena, they stay out; when the arena is empty they will run right across it and charge around like hooligans.

These are dogs who know how to behave around horses, and horses who have been around dogs like this would, I'm sure, be very frightened by a dog that behaved very differently, i.e. a dog that, instead of staying a respectful distance away, ran between the horse's legs and under its belly.
 
Gallop_Away said:
But then that to me raises even more questions. If this horse was "comfortable around dogs" this reaction to a dog running underneath it seems even more bizarre. Why THIS dog? If the dog had bitten or jumped up at the horse I could understand but presumably this horse has had dogs running around it's legs before without issue?
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We don't know that the dog didn't bite, the rider wouldn't have been able to see, the owner may not have noticed and even if they did may not divulge.

As I said upthread, my really good with dogs tb did use his legs on a border collie that nipped at his heels. It was more a push than a kick but had the owner not turned up and got their dog, it may have escalated. That owner thought their dog was only playing too.
 
Keith_Beef said:
I think that this detail will turn out to be very relevant in the case.

There are dogs that road around at liberty in all four yards where I have ridden in the town where I live, and I expect that this is very common.

Where I have my regular Sunday morning lesson there are three dogs. The oldest (dark coated with a kind of Labrador shape) doesn't move around much, between the shade and the sunshine depending on if he feels to cold or to hot.

The other two (a Collie cross and a Malinois cross) are young and much more boisterous but are very respectful around the horses sand never get to close. When we are riding in the arena, they stay out; when the arena is empty they will run right across it and charge around like hooligans.

These are dogs who know how to behave around horses, and horses who have been around dogs like this would, I'm sure, be very frightened by a dog that behaved very differently, i.e. a dog that, instead of staying a respectful distance away, ran between the horse's legs and under its belly.
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The horse I mentioned with the collie was happy with dogs under his legs and on one yard a chicken though he ignored the chicken so much he trod on its leg and it had a limp after that.

However he was also able to make his feelings felt when a dog was aggressive.
 
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Just musing generally, if the dog was regularly walked off lead on that beach and had been for a several years, had seen the horses having their canters and never reacted, the dog owner might argue that if had no knowledge/awareness that the dog might on this occasion react differently. Is the "but it's never happened before" a defence?
 
criso said:
We don't know that the dog didn't bite, the rider wouldn't have been able to see, the owner may not have noticed and even if they did may not divulge.

As I said upthread, my really good with dogs tb did use his legs on a border collie that nipped at his heels. It was more a push than a kick but had the owner not turned up and got their dog, it may have escalated. That owner thought their dog was only playing too.
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True but then there were also the other riders and guide presumably close by. If the dog had bitten it's likely one of the other riders would have seen.

Equally my horses are used for hunting and regularly have hounds running around them. So if one of mine reacted in such an extreme manner to a dog running underneath them I would be very concerned and think there was a lot more to it.

As I say all this is only speculation as none of us were there. I will definitely be following this case with interest and will be very interested to hear the judgement.
 
I think it will come down to how much the loose dog was a contributing factor which led to the accident, if the rider had stopped because the dog was loose, what (if anything) the rider and ride leader could have done, and what the dog owner could have done.

We all have had dog related incidents whether hacking, on comp sites or even in an arena.

As always though, 'lessons will be learned' - but not necessarily be applied in the future - as every incident is different.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Most horses which are used to dogs can tell the difference between a non threatening dog wandering around near or under it and a dog which means them harm.

So yes, the most dog proof of horses might well react violently if it thinks it is in danger.
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Do we know the dog meant harm? All we know is that the dog ran under the horse. There seems
to be a great deal of speculation going on here.

Ultimately the facts that we know are, that a dog ran under an apparently "dog proof" horse and an, by his own description, experienced rider was not able to keep the horse from reacting and fell off.

Based on those while it may seem that the dog is the initial cause there are also further factors at play that may limit the liability of the dog's owner.

I think ultimately the man will be awarded some damages but I don't think the judge will find entirely against the defendent dog owner.

An experienced rider should have taken some action themselves to mitigate the circumstances, and imo an apparent "dog proof" horse should not have had such an extreme reaction to a dog running underneath it, and so therefore is not dog proof and so probably unsuitable for a riding school to be using as a mount for client's in an area they are very likely to come across dogs.
 
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Gallop_Away said:
Do we know the dog meant harm? All we know is that the dog ran under the horse. There seems to be a great deal of speculation going on here.
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No, we don't, and if you read my post I did not speculate whether *this dog*, the elderly Westie, meant harm or not.

Yes, we get it that you have hunted and your horses are used to hounds *blah, blah*. I have hunted too, and there is a world of difference between hounds milling around your horse but basically ignoring it, and a dog coming in to attack your horse ?‍♀️.

If you expect your horse to stand quietly and not to react if it genuinely feels threatened, then you do not seem to understand horses very well.

I nearly got sent home once on the hunting field when a hound crashed out of a hedge behind me into my horse's hind legs, and despite normally being dog proof he kicked out in surprise. I got a right royal dressing down by the master. A senior member of the field took me under his wing and said that he'd seen that it was just an accident, and to tuck in behind him for the rest of the day, so I did. The horse never kicked at any other canine again.
 
Tiddlypom there really is no need for rudeness. I'm just as entitled to offer my opinion as you on the subject.

I understand horses perfectly well but thank you for such a patronising and rude comment all the same.

Also having worked in the legal profession for over 10 years I also know a fair bit about the legal process and how these sorts of cases work.

As I say we do not know that this dog did anything to make this horse feel threatened or "attacked" the horse in any manner. You are speculating I'm afraid. All we know is that it ran under its legs. For whatever reason the horse reacted and reacted in am extreme manner.

ETA I have not once said the dog owner is blameless. Only that I think there are other factors a court will likely consider, and may find also contributed to the accident

I also never said I expected a horse to "stand quietly" whilst feeling threatened or if a dog meant to attack. I actually said in my post above that had the dog bitten or attacked the horse I would have said what it did was an understandable reaction. However we don't know that this dog did any of these things, only that it ran under the horse. Hence why I think there is a lot more to this case.
 
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My horse is used to my dogs running around and comfortable with loose dogs however I'm not sure how she'd react to a dog running under her.
I suspect she wouldn't react however if we'd been cantering her adrenaline would be up and there's a chance she react more than she would than if we'd been for a walking hack.
 
I have no legal knowledge whatsoever but from my POV it doesn't really matter whether a horse can reasonably be expected to tolerate a strange dog under its legs, if that strange dog shouldn't have been running lose around the horse in the first place.

i would expect all of mine to react FWIW. they have all had lots of contact with dogs but generally they like to face them. and again i perhaps have less tolerant views because i don't own dogs and loose dogs approaching me with no recall does my head in.
 
Gallop_Away said:
As I say we do not know that this dog did anything to make this horse feel threatened or "attacked" the horse in any manner. You are speculating I'm afraid. All we know is that it ran under its legs. For whatever reason the horse reacted and reacted in am extreme manner.
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Its doesn't matter though. The dog was deemed to be out of control and it law that makes the dogs owner responsible. If the dog had been on a lead or at heel then your arguments would be true. But this dog was off lead and away from its owner
 
Gallop_Away said:
But then that to me raises even more questions. If this horse was "comfortable around dogs" this reaction to a dog running underneath it seems even more bizarre. Why THIS dog? If the dog had bitten or jumped up at the horse I could understand but presumably this horse has had dogs running around it's legs before without issue?
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Context is everything to a flight animals. There are chickens on the farm and Lottie is fine with them in her stable, milling about her legs, getting under her. One flapped out of her haybox where it had buried itself this morning and she did not react at all. But I am confident that a strange bird flapping around her head or legs would cause her to react.

There is a world of difference to prey animals between 'this furry thing at home who I have learned is harmless' and 'this unknown creature away from home who may mean me harm'.

The only time I have seen Dolly properly freak out was when a boot came off her front leg in water and then floated away, touching her back leg. She was not scared of boots but an unexpected boot in the wrong place was very scary to her.
 
context and expectation too... One of mine unexpectedly/unusually touched his waterbucket with a hindleg when turning around after entering the stable the other day and nearly jumped over the wall with shock!

My geldings are stabled on a yard with lurchers running free. On the whole they are fine with them twirling around i am not sure they'd understand that a terrier was the same thing though...? so a horse may be alright with dogs that are a recognisable type from body shape/movement patterns etc, but a different type of dog may appear to be totally different to them. of course we know that a dachshund is a dog in the same way that a whippet is a dog, but a horse probably has no way to link the 2 to understand that they are probably both safe.
 
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