Dog Related- Minor Emergency

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MosMum

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I have a nearly 2 yr old black lab, we've had her since she was 8 wks old.

We got our son some guinea pigs for Christmas, and Pippin has been really interested in them (normal), so we've been working on desensitizing her to them. When we aren't watching, she is kept downstairs and the gp's live in C's bedroom.

Today, she snuck upstairs and opened the cage, and was inside the cage with them trying to get them. Hubby caught her and yelled at her (of course!) and told her to get out, but she ignored him, so he went to grab her collar and she bit his hand, drawing blood.

Does this mean she is unsafe to have around the children? Can you offer us some advice of what to do, as she's never so much as snapped at anyone before! I'm not sure if we are meant to PTS or just do more training, or what.

Thanks.
 
You grabbed a dog that was targeting a prey animal and got snapped...
Did she let go?

Big difference between this situation and a dog targeting a person.

Sounds like more training is needed - the dog too.
 
personally I would seek the advice of a good 1:1 behaviourist in your area who can come and assess the relationship between you and the dog. It sounds as if she needs putting in her place and perhaps until now you hadnt realised she thought she had higher status than you did. HAs she never growled at you before at all? The other option is that when you husband grabbed her collar she was startled and afraid and bit in fear. Either way I would say not to leave her alone with the kids until you get someone to help you with this. This isnt something that can be properly advised through a forum. If you arent sure where to access help, speak to your local vet and ask for recommendations for a behaviourist, NOT just your local dog training group. As for the piggies - get a couple of dog lead clips on the cage lid;)
 
She's not unsafe with children per se. But I would separate the guinea pigs totally and I wouldn't bother desensitising her to them, who REALLY needs their carnivore to like their small furries anyway?

Put a lock on the door where the guineas are kept and I wouldn't go sticking my hand near a dog when its trying to kill something really, and I DEFINITELY wouldn't be having the kids in the room in the mix.... unless I was happy to take my chances that is.

She certainly doesn't need putting to sleep.
To quote YOU - "You don't throw a whole life away just 'cause its banged up a little."
 
I wouldn't normally advice grabbed a dog who was in high alert, but the alternative was two dead piggies, so I'm not sure what else he could have done in this situation...

We have a dog trainer, she's had training classes from when she had her shots to about 6 months ago, but I'm happy to ask a behaviouralist. She's very obediant in everything, even obeys the kids when they tell her to 'drop it', 'leave it', 'bring it' or the basics of sit stay, down, out, bed etc. I've never really thought she was dominant at all tbh! That's why this has taken us by surprise I guess.

I don't care if she LIKES the guinea pigs but I'd like her to IGNORE them, and not sure how to achieve this!

I feel pretty uncertain about owning a dog who has proven, either in fear/surprise or attack mode, will bite a human. There's a huge difference between 'afraid but I won't bite' and 'afraid, and I will bite'.
 
i think my gut feeling on it, which I perhaps didnt explain in my initial reply is this; yes the dog was in prey mode, but IMO that doesnt excuse biting. I can guarantee you could pull any of mine off something and they wouldnt dare even raise their voices to me and Im talking about 5 border collies who are more known to be angsty, as well my black lab. While, given, the dog was in a high-drive situation - and yes , it doesnt follow that the dog will then go on to bite the kids... what it DOES tell me is that the potential is there when riled to react. Same with any dog you might say, and Id agree, you cant trust any dog 100% but this dog has shown willing to bite. I'd therefore worry about kids accidentally getting in the way of toys/chews, or inadvertantly stepping on paws/tails.. or failing to read the warning signals and carrying on that rough and tumble game 1 step too far - resulting in a similar response from the dog. Hope that explains my thinking better, Im not saying she needs to be PTS, but I am saying you need to get proper help to train her.

ETA cross posted with you.Training classes are not the same thing as having someone come to your house and observe... im sorry for you, you must be really worried, but there are things a good behaviourist may be able to do to help you. As for the piggies, just keep them away from the dog id say.
 
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Thanks, NeversayNever, I guess thats my concern too, what I DON'T understand is how its taken until now to see this kind of behaviour surface in her, our 5 yr old is autistic and regularly sits on, pulls tails steps on, takes toys away if we're not there in time, he doesn't do it on purpose but is just very poorly organized. Our daughter sits on the dog when watching tv and pippin just wags and licks her.

We had about 3 weeks of growling during feeding when she was about 4 months old, and the dog trainer saw us through it, and she's never done it since. Other than that we've never had any kind of dominance behaviour with her at all.

But I'm really glad its been advised not to immediately pts, as I'd hate to do that really, and of course we're happy to call in a behaviouralist. :)
 
As a child my first venture into business was breeding ginger guinea pigs,however my dog quite often would break into their nifty ark runs and swallow the odd pig whole. We regarded it as a nuisance ,a loss of five shillings for me..but perfectly natural . So it objected from being stopped..so what? Dogs is dogs you know,don`t waste your money on some trainer,just keep your pigs safer.As to "is it safe with children"..do THEY look like guinea pigs then?:D:D:D:D
 
MosMum said:
I wouldn't normally advice grabbed a dog who was in high alert, but the alternative was two dead piggies, so I'm not sure what else he could have done in this situation...
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sorry but i completely know how you are feeling!!! we have 2 fluffy little guinea pigs and a dwarf rabbit, sadly our first guinea passed away last year so we bought two little new ones. But our dachsund had always been interested in them, after 2 weeks he managed to get in their run outside and killed both of them, tried to turn on our little rabbit but we got there in time :( - do you know what it was DISGUSTING it really upset all of us! :( Just really horrible, i understand that his breed is bred for going down rabbit holes, getting them etc but it was just horrible, he was in disgrace for at least a week! we did buy two more little pigs and they are cute little things had them for months now and they really are darlings, he still goes near them but dad has really dog proofed their cage and we have chicken wire round it when they are out (every day). But we have been looking after our friends jack russel for a few days over the past month and a few more this month - we are now worried she will somehow get to them as is VERY interested so really we are taking precautions!
Its really hard with dogs but iw ould say just shut the door to the pigs and check hes not near them, but i agree with the way you told him off - they should learn that the pigs are your pets and he is a pet aswell so should behave around them :rolleyes:

Hope this helps, but keep trying :D

xx
 
MosMum said:
Thanks, NeversayNever, I guess thats my concern too, what I DON'T understand is how its taken until now to see this kind of behaviour surface in her, our 5 yr old is autistic and regularly sits on, pulls tails steps on, takes toys away if we're not there in time, he doesn't do it on purpose but is just very poorly organized. Our daughter sits on the dog when watching tv and pippin just wags and licks her.

We had about 3 weeks of growling during feeding when she was about 4 months old, and the dog trainer saw us through it, and she's never done it since. Other than that we've never had any kind of dominance behaviour with her at all.

But I'm really glad its been advised not to immediately pts, as I'd hate to do that really, and of course we're happy to call in a behaviouralist. :)
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what you have just explained about your kids adds more weight to your concerns. Did you say she is 2? the thing is... training a dog isnt just something you do once then leave. The fact you had to get help when she was 4 months old shows she has that in her nature and you will need to re-visit all the work you did to overcome that regularly throughout her life. Really, it all makes a lot more sense now. She has just reached maturity and so is bound to try her hand at moving up the pack status again. It is in a dog's nature to do this, you have to keep on top of it all the time. IMO this isnt so out of the blue given what you have explained.
 
No, your dog is not dangerous to have around the children. He or She is, however, dangerous to have around the Guinea Pigs and I'd suggest moving them to an area where she has NO contact with them whatsoever. They must be in place where the dog cannot access the cage under any circumstances. Do you have a garage or garden shed? They'd be perfectly happy in there. Guinea Pigs are very sensitive to stress and could simply drop dead if they feel harrassed by the dog. Your dog is a gundog, bred to retrieve game,and she can't be expected to make pals with hairy rodents that invade her territory! It is not being nasty, merely reflecting what it has been bred to do for generations. The bite was through pure excitement. That sort of behaviour isn't desirable, of course, but it is wholly understandable and I don't think you need a dog behaviourist to sort out her 'problem'. She hasn't got a problem, the Guinea Pigs have!!

I think the dog might benefit from attending basic obedience classes, just to ensure she knows her place in your pack and doesn't start to exert her dominance. But I do think this bite was down to the pure excitement of the chase and that is nothing like as serious as a bite in other circumstances.
 
Again, thanks NSN, I'm glad someone out there knows a lot more about it than me, and is kind enough to take the time to give advice etc :) I love your avatar with the collies, they're so cute and innocent (looking) LOL

Thanks others, too.

I did think of rehoming but I'm not sure I would rehome a dog who had bitten a person, or at least I'd have to think very hard and long about it. Besides, we love her and are happy to put in any amount of work it would take, as long as she wasn't a threat to the children, which I wouldn't tollerate at all. I know no dog is 100% safe but if I thought she was a real and present threat to them she would be gone in an instant, hence why I asked you fine folks what you thought :)
 
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MosMum said:
Again, thanks NSN, I'm glad someone out there knows a lot more about it than me, and is kind enough to take the time to give advice etc :) I love your avatar with the collies, they're so cute and innocent (looking) LOL

Thanks others, too.

I did think of rehoming but I'm not sure I would rehome a dog who had bitten a person, or at least I'd have to think very hard and long about it. Besides, we love her and are happy to put in any amount of work it would take, as long as she wasn't a threat to the children, which I wouldn't tollerate at all. I know no dog is 100% safe but if I thought she was a real and present threat to them she would be gone in an instant, hence why I asked you fine folks what you thought :)
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you are very welcome.Meant to say, i also have a rabbit and GP's, hens & ducks, Id never leave the dogs unsupervised with them. Although my lab now shares the front porch with the small furries who are in for the winter - and he ignores them, but he is almost 15 :D
 
Well if that's all she's done I am sure you'd have teams of willing homes looking to take on the dog, I'd exhaust those before I took her to be euthanised. Please don't put your personal reservations on a dogs behaviour above a potential new home where they could likely deal with her issue perfectly well.
 
If you want to rehome then please, please go back to her breeder in the first instance. If the breeder doesn't want to know - and any self respecting breeder would take the dog back in the blink of an eye - then go to Labrador rescue. If you pm me I'll pass on their details.
 
Sound advice from NSN.
To those that have said the dog doesnt have an issue the guinea pigs do, you couldnt be further from the truth, the guinea pigs were the catalyst in this case but there is no excuse for a dog biting its owner whatever the reason may be.
You need to re establish thorough training with her OP. She's obviously under some illusion that she is more on an equal with the family than below you in the pecking order. Given the previous issue you had with food aggression this wouldnt be entirely unexpected.
 
we have always had dogs and guinea pigs in our household. My first dog (lab x collie) doted on the guinea pigs, treating them almost as her puppies I think, she would never snap at them or anything. However, every dogs since I would not trust with being near guinea pigs. It takes a lot of control from a dog NOT to chase/attack something it naturally should do so, unless the dog is well trained then I would not have them anywhere near the guinea pigs. Guinea pigs do not need to be kept inside, ours have always lived in runs/cages outside. Oyr current dog (GSD x) is frankly obsessed with themand will lie outside in the summer buy their ourtside run and just watch them and occasionally chase round - the guinea pigs couldn't care less (although they run awau if i - the one who feeds them - approaches the cage! lol). That cage is totally dog proof with wire on the bottom and very strong wire around the sides so i know she cannot actually get to them. I think she sees them as squeaky toys frankly but considering how quickly she can kill a rabbit and that she is encouraged to get the rats at the stables I would never let her near them without the cage between them and she IS well trained but, it'd only take one snap and that'd be that.

The fact she snapped at your husband i would take as her more being in the 'moment' as opposed to actually aggression - she is only young after all BUT that does not mean it is acceptable behaviour. I think the suggestion of a behaviourist is a good one, they can give you ways to teach her the boundaries.

I would also try and educate your children that the dog is not a play thing - you say you child sits on the dog? Yes sure, we probably have all done similar when we were younger but you should really dissuade the children from doing this. Also, maybe do not alllow the dog upstairs at all - i personally don't believe dogs should be allowed in all areas of the house and generally enusre a dog learns that upstairs is out of bounds. Do not allow the dog on sofas that you sit on etc etc. i definitely do not think the dog is dangerous or needs putting to sleep - she made a mis-judgement. The dog does need to learn boundaries though as do your children when it comes to how to treat the dog.
 
NeverSayNever said:
personally I would seek the advice of a good 1:1 behaviourist in your area who can come and assess the relationship between you and the dog. It sounds as if she needs putting in her place and perhaps until now you hadnt realised she thought she had higher status than you did. HAs she never growled at you before at all? The other option is that when you husband grabbed her collar she was startled and afraid and bit in fear. Either way I would say not to leave her alone with the kids until you get someone to help you with this. This isnt something that can be properly advised through a forum. If you arent sure where to access help, speak to your local vet and ask for recommendations for a behaviourist, NOT just your local dog training group. As for the piggies - get a couple of dog lead clips on the cage lid;)
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I haven't read all your replies, but totally agree with neversaynever, if you didn't take steps to overcome this and one of your children got bitten one day you'd never forgive yourself, at least if you get the behaviourist out and take all steps towards overcoming it, you are minimising any risk (if there is a risk)
 
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jendie said:
If you want to rehome then please, please go back to her breeder in the first instance. If the breeder doesn't want to know - and any self respecting breeder would take the dog back in the blink of an eye - then go to Labrador rescue. If you pm me I'll pass on their details.
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Sorry to say though that one of the first questions asked by any responsible rescue is, has the dog ever bitten, alot of rescues will not rehome a dog that has.
 
Thanks for your thoughts...

Why is it a bad idea for the toddler to sit on the dog? Its a big dog and I know its not hurting her (she's not trying to get away or seeming unhappy with it at all, she is just wagging, like its a game). Natty (the toddler) is being taught to respect all living things, as I would teach any capable child, and I have no problem with her taking things away from OUR dog because she's higher in the pecking order and SHOULD be able to take things away from the dog (we don't do this with food, but with toys). Now that this has happened we'll have to ask the behaviouralist what to do about that, though. I'm a bit torn on that front I guess, and will need some professional advice.

I disagree frankly that the dog doesn't have a problem. The dog's problem is that her future is seriously at risk if she bites a human. She's done it once, and I'm not inclined to have her PTS or rehomed based only on that, but a dog who bites a human twice doesn't have much chance in my book. I know that will upset some people and I'm sorry but I don't judge ANY animal as more important than any human. And the truth is there AREN'T thousands of homes who would gladly take a dog who has bitten a human not once but twice, and those who would, are potentially the least safe as they are potentially not taking the situation seriously enough.

Sorry I'm rambling now, I really do apologise if I'm offended or upset anyone, and I'm really grateful for the advice and thoughts offered :) I won't be rehoming/pts the dog at this point, but will look into a behaviouralist local to us as of tomorrow.
 
Firstly, to the OP - i really feel for you. It is such an awful feeling, the realisation that perhaps you don't know your dog aswell as you thought you did.

what you have just explained about your kids adds more weight to your concerns. Did you say she is 2? the thing is... training a dog isnt just something you do once then leave. The fact you had to get help when she was 4 months old shows she has that in her nature and you will need to re-visit all the work you did to overcome that regularly throughout her life. Really, it all makes a lot more sense now. She has just reached maturity and so is bound to try her hand at moving up the pack status again. It is in a dog's nature to do this, you have to keep on top of it all the time. IMO this isnt so out of the blue given what you have explained.
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I had avoided posting so far because i felt everyone was giving you plenty of advice. However, the quote above struck a chord with me. I have a 6 year old collie. Last year he bit my 1 year old daughter in the face. He had food aggression as a puppy (that we worked through). He is also of a slightly bossy nature. With him, you do have to keep on top of it.

I looked at rehoming him, but like you i was unsure about rehoming a dog that had bitten. He is such a goofy, happy go lucky guy that i felt sure in the future someone would (like us) assume he was ok with a child. I did not want that on my conscience. Most rescue places said that if he had bitten, they would pts. The rescue places that would take him had huge waiting lists.

I saw my vet, who gave him a health check, and referred me to a behaviourist. She confirmed he was lovely, not 'aggressive' as such, but needed constantly reminding that we were in charge, or he would 'step up' to that role.

We kept him, but the rule in our house is dogs and kids don't mix unless directly supervised (ie kids on laps or dogs on leads). It was a very specific situation that led to our daughter getting bitten that is unlikely to reoccur, but i can't take that risk. The warning signs were there but i can only see them now in hindsight. I felt like, and still feel like a total idiot and will always regret allowing the situation to occur. If he had become aggressive toward my daughter, then he would have been gone. As I said, it was a situation that occured that led to him biting.

So, i suppose i'm trying to say that if you want to keep her, then do, but be aware that she is perhaps more 'reactive' in some situations.

I really feel for you. I was devastated. My daughter has a small scar on her cheek from a puncture wound, and her eyelid was slightly torn but again, has healed with a scar. I am reminded everyday of my utter foolishness when i look at her beautiful face that was thankfully not ruined - we were lucky he sort of side swiped her and nipped, not mauled. It could have been so much worse and i shudder to think about it. I now have a huge, hefty respect for dogs being just that - dogs. Not furry people that can rationalise before they react.

I hope this doesn't scare you - thats not my intention. Just wanted to let you know that you can keep your dog, but just have in place measures that will prevent it happening again (i.e move the guinea pigs) and keep on top of the training.

Good luck, i hope it all pans out well for you and the dog

Trina x
 
Thank you so much Trina for your insight, and your kindness too.

We will keep Pippin through this on a last chance basis I think. I know it will upset some people but if she bit another human again. Sometimes you just have to do what you can live with. x
 
I can't believe that I am reading that someone is thinking of having their lab PTS over something which is relatively minor. It's a bit like intervening when two dogs are scrapping....intervener sometimes get bitten because they are "in the way", not because the dog has turned on them. The dog was acting on instinct and at the end of the day, a lab is a gundog and probably thought it was doing what it's brain was telling it to do. I have a collie x GSD rescue dog. I used to have guinea pigs. When they were in the run outside, I could leave the lid off the run if I wanted and all he would do is guard them and lie right next to the run and they would cuddle up against him on the other side of the mesh. The GSD in him took over and he was protective towards them - instinct again. He would never have bitten me under any circumstances, as he knows that I am the Alpha, and when I say "leave" or "come", he does it. But also bear in mind that guinea pigs squeak very loudly - perhaps your dog thought they were toys - the noise they make isn't disimilar to some squeaky toys.....
 
In my eyes its utter tripe that someone who has a dog that has bitten twice isn't a responsible owner. Some people can ensure their dog does not come into contact with people who aren't made fully aware of the dogs tendancies quite proficiently - therefore negating any possible risk to anyone but those WILLING to take the risk.

I had a fear aggressive mongrel, I'd like to see anyone tell me my dog was better off being PTS. His failings as a dog were my failings as an owner (well i was 8 when he was born but I still bear responsibility as should my mum in his under-socialisation) and I owed it to him to make him as safe as possible by making other people safe around him. He was put outside when visitors came unless they were happy to meet him after being appraised of the dangers and kept on a lead in open spaces.

We went on to have 13 glorious years together and for his faults, I wouldn't change him. I also have a friend who has a fear/stranger aggressive collie - should he be PTS too? Or should he get the chance at living a life with a sensible person who has the capacity to manage them effectively.

Only once that resource is exhausted or deemed unavailable should the dog be PTS.

I know many rescues that have dogs with previous.
 
MosMum said:
Why is it a bad idea for the toddler to sit on the dog?
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Seriously?! :eek: It's not fair on the dog, or the toddler :( :( Can you really not see the potential for that to go wrong? :(

I disagree frankly that the dog doesn't have a problem. The dog's problem is that her future is seriously at risk if she bites a human. She's done it once, and I'm not inclined to have her PTS or rehomed based only on that, but a dog who bites a human twice doesn't have much chance in my book. I know that will upset some people and I'm sorry but I don't judge ANY animal as more important than any human. And the truth is there AREN'T thousands of homes who would gladly take a dog who has bitten a human not once but twice, and those who would, are potentially the least safe as they are potentially not taking the situation seriously enough.
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Good lord! It's a working breed of dog, and you brought 'vermin' into the home. No, she shouldn't have broken into your son's bedroom (Incidentally, Guinea-pigs, in a child's bedroom?!?! :confused:) but from Christmas to now is no time at all for her to have learned to ignore them, and it's not fair on any of the animals that you allow a situation where the dog attacked them. :(

I always had GPs growing up, we bred some and had some that running loose would follow us round the garden & house - even up and down the stairs or sleeping in a bed next to my computer :D BUT I now have two dogs, of working breeding, and it would be absolutely exhausting and stressful if I were to have piggies now, to constantly ensure their safety and that they weren't stressed by the dogs. How are you planning on coping when the weather warms up and the GPs need to go out in a run in the garden - will you shut the dog in and ensure that your children don't accidentally let it out? For several hours a day, for many many months of the year?! :confused:

Perhaps instead of blaming the dog you should consider just how wise it was of yourself to allow such a foreseeable problem :o
 
I cover my boys ears at the 'PTS because he bites' comments :-(

Abused as a puppy and fears strangers so bites them if he is not managed correctly (Which he is but i am only human and do make mistakes)

5 years old, happy and in a loving home where he enjoy belly tickles and kisses.

LouisRoxy-1.jpg
 
I dont think this bite is a problem, keep the pigs WELL away and behind a locked door frm the dog. However I would never ever ever leave the children alone with the dog, ever. Even a perfect dog I never would.
 
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