Dog Related- Minor Emergency

I started reading this with some sympathy, but actually it seems you are setting your dog up to fail. Firstly,she is 2 years old, that is still young as far as dogs go, especially labs. I have a 2 year old lab and she is very much the baby in the family - and acts it - alongside the two older rotties.

How did you try to desensitise her to the guinea pigs? Could it be in a way that she felt they were hers? Also is she spayed? If not, is she in season? My lab is unspayed and gives no problems when she is in season - other than being a bit yacky. My rottie however, was completely different when in season and had to be spayed early..she is the loveliest of dogs but nested with a vengeance and possessed every small furry object in the house, including socks. She would also growl if we approached her self made "baby house"...since being spayed (7 years ago) we have had no further issues..it was all hormone driven.

I do despair at you not knowing it is wrong for your toddler to be sitting on her. Why should the dog put up with that? One day she may sit on her and hurt her and then it will be the dogs fault when she reacts. Why risk it? Apart from anything it is not showing any respect at all for the dogs feelings in letting a child clamber all over her.

Rather than put her to sleep, or put her on last chance saloon due to biting twice (minor and miscommunication being the reason I feel)....rehome her to the labrador rescue and allow them to find a home where she won't be exposed to these issues. (Btw I have a rabbit and no way would I "desensitise" my retriever to her).
 
MosMum.....look at this from the dogs point of view. She is bred to hunt; she is a gundog breed that you are keeping as a pet. I don't know if she's working or pet or show bred.....that's irrelevant. She has had a history of food guarding. I am assuming here, and sorry if I'm wrong, but you have never exposed her/introduced her/trained her around game??? Right? Now, you suddenly bring in this wonderful 3 star Egon Ronay meal and have it right in her house under her nose and expect her to ignore it??? Of course, she's going to go into hunt mode and want it. Then, just as she's about to secure this fantastic resource, the adrenaline is up, and wham! Out comes this hand to remove her from the reward! It's a repeat of the food guarding you experienced earlier as a 4 month old......nothing more, nothing less. The only difference is, the guinea pigs are a much higher value resource. You may have worked through a solution for boring dog food in a bowl (BTW I would be very interested to know how you did solve this problem!) but you certainly ain't proofed the behaviour against higher criteria.....ie if a hot roast chicken were involved, let alone a warm, living, breathing, running G Pig. Soooo.....how on earth do you expect her to behave when she has this wonderful meal on the hoof under her nose and is just about to go for the kill?

I'm sorry, but IMO the problem is with the training, not the dog. And as for a child sitting on her back......please, the dog is an animal, not a toy!

Do not PTS this dog; keep furrie criturs out of her way, but be prepared for the smell of them to sometimes get her worked up. Establish new ground rules as far as the children go. If you need help, get an APBC behaviourist (NOT APDT.....they are trainers, not behaviourists and there is a big difference.)

God, I feel for this dog. If you need help rehoming, and I can probably put you in touch with people who would help. If you want to go this route, please PM me details of her breeding.
 
I am glad I am not the only one who sees it as wrong and an accident waiting to happen letting a toddler sit on a dog! Yes sure, as I said, we've all probably been guilty as kids of doing similar but it is down to the parents to educate the child about correct behaviour towards animals. As said above, what happensnif said child does hurt the dog and the dog's then natural instinct may be to turn and snap? Our rescue GSD x is the softest dog ever but since we got her as a 9 mth old she has been very wary and scared of youngish toddlers - that makes me wonder if she was treated in a similar way as a pup - all fluffy and sweet etc and mauled by kids. Maybe one day she did snap or react in a defensive way and then paid for it with a beating of some description. Makes sense that she now makes sure she's well out the way of kids of a certain age!
 
it is also a good idea to spend time with new puppies feeding them - sitting with them, including young children in the house and hand feeding them. Putting food in their bowls as they eat so they see you as a good presence near their bowls. Never feed puppies and leave them to it alone or they feel anyone who approaches later is an intruder. Much better for them to think an approaching crawling child is bringing more food, than trying to steal what they have.
 
Ok will try to answer all posts with one :)

Lynne, we tried to desensitize her by having her in a 'sit' and DH holding a piggy, every time she looked at piggy got a firm 'No' and everytime she looked elsewhere/relaxed, got a treat. She knows what 'settle' means (you don't have to hold a firm 'down' but you DO have to stay in that general area and relax quietly) so we used this, as well. I don't expect her to ignore them as yet, that is something we'd like to achieve over time, but the issue isn't really that she got into the cage (though not ideal, these things happen if the dog isn't watched closely enough, and she did sneak up there!), it was her reaction, but I think we've covered that.

As to Natty sitting on her, with some posts I can see why its a bad idea, and I wouldn't let her do it to someone else's dog that I didn't know but I'm realizing we don't know Pippin that well, after all, anyway. I'm sorry this seemed ignorant, I just wanted to know the reasons. I was raised around animals all my life but some things need to be re-taught when you are raised to believe a certain way... if that makes sense. If Natty had been hurting the dog of COURSE I would never have let her do it, and I would never hurt a dog as punishment in any case. If Pippin wanted to, she is more than capable of standing up and walking away to her cage (which is open and she can go to whenever she wants) and no one would stop her. But I appreciate (Really do) the things pointed out today and won't let her do this in future.

I can't remember who said something about it being a bit silly to get the gp's in the first place or put them in that position, it was on a previous page, but you may be right, I am prone to think with my heart not my head at times, and perhaps I shouldn't have gotten them. They are here now, and I don't really want to get rid of them. I'm not sure if I didn't make this clear but the pigs live upstairs with the door shut and the baby gate shut on the stairs, so they ARE kept well out of the way, the dog just happened to sneak through today which perhaps was bound to happen sooner or later anyway, I will have to re-think this aspect, and thankyou for your thoughts.

gunnergundog, Thankyou, I did find your explanation enlightening, and I can see how Pippin would react as she did. What does APBC stand for, please?

In answer to other questions,

No, the dog has never been hit or physically punished for anything.

We sorted out her food aggression by
1) teaching her to sit and wait until she was given a 'go ahead' command to eat
2) occasionally petting her back/head while she ate, and if she growled, removing the food from her reach. Only the trainer, myself and DH did this and the kids were never int he room while she was eating (they still aren't, simply because she eats in the kitchen)
3) She quickly learnt not to growl and to accept being approached and her food/bowl being touched while she ate.

Yes, she is spayed, we don't want any puppies! :) She was spayed when she was old enough :)

I hope that answers all questions, please ask again if I missed any, and thanks again for all the advice and thoughts!
 
MosMum......the APBC is the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors. http://www.apbc.org.uk/ They are trained to a much higher level than APDT members.

I would have to say that I would question the experience of the dog trainer who talked you through the initial food resource guarding from what you have described as your method to solve the problem.

Similarly, to what LynneB described my approach would be to sit on the floor with a bowl between my feet and a few bits of food in it. Dog comes and eats those bits, I would then add more food from my hand from a bag that I would have about my person. Each time the dog ate up, I would hand deliver more food to the empty bowl. That way the dog begins to associate the proximity of the human and a hand going to the bowl/food source as a positive experience and not a negative one that is going to REMOVE the reward.

HTH

PS Should also add that growling is not the bad thing that it is so often perceived to be. It is the dogs way of delivering a warning prior to a bite. If you stop the dog growling, you can then end up with a dog that goes straight for the bite.
 
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MosMum said:
I'm not sure if I didn't make this clear but the pigs live upstairs with the door shut and the baby gate shut on the stairs, so they ARE kept well out of the way, the dog just happened to sneak through today which perhaps was bound to happen sooner or later anyway, I will have to re-think this aspect, and thankyou for your thoughts.
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You do realise that GPs aren't like hamsters or gerbils?! They will need to be out grazing in the garden once things warm up...
 
I'm another who would never allow a toddler or any child sit on and 'play' with a dog - no matter whether the dog seems to enjoy it or not (although I'm not sure I've met a dog yet that enjoys having its tail pulled and being stood on!)
It really is unfair to the dog, the children also need to learn that there are boundaries when dealing with animals as they risk learning the hard way, which is unfair to all concerned.

Personally I don't think your dog has done anything wrong other than act on instinct, which all dogs will do and I certainly wouldn't be making it his last chance for simply being a dog.

I have a dog that can also become aggressive when challenged, it is fear based, but he is the most loving animal in normal circumstances and I wouldn't consider pts for him; he simply needs considerate handling and training and not being put in situations where he is set up to fail, which it appears your young dog is.

I think you perhaps need to rethink your everyday arrangements with regards to how you and your children interact with him, he sounds to me like he will be type of dog that works best with plenty of reward and praise for doing the right thing, but shouldn't be put into situations where he is left to make the wrong move. It can be beneficial for your children to learn responsibility and consideration in regard to looking after a dog too.

I'd also keep the guinea pigs away from him!

ETA You've posted since I wrote this, but I'm pleased to see that you are reconsidering how you interact with you dog (who I referred to as he -sorry!) I'm sure with correct handling and training that things will work out.
 
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Lynne and Gunnygundog, perhaps the trainer went about it this way because we DIDN'T do as you are suggesting when she was younger/when we first got her? When we brought her home, we immediately started teaching sit/stay/no mouthing people (which some people think is cute but I don't) but we just fed her in a bowl, not necessarily on her own but not by hand, either. Perhaps the trainer came too late in that respect, as we only called her out to the house when the dog started growling at us during feeding, until then we just attended classes. I'm not sure if that makes it any better in dog-training worlds or not, but its what I thought of....

Thankyou touchstone, I am always interested in learning and hope not to be a person who makes the same mistake twice. I'm sorry my ignorance on the subject irritated people though.

Puppy- yes I know guinea pigs need to graze in the summer etc, we have a garden split into 3 sections and the dog is allowed only in one section (well its in 4 sections including the patio) and can't get in due to high fences even if she wanted to... one section is for pippin, one is for the children and their trampoline etc, and the other is currently just left, but we intended to mow it and put a run out there in the summer... I hope that helps
 
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Shilasdair said:
IMO, a dog that bites can never be trusted alone with children again.
S :D
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This is open to interpretation though. Having seen how quickly it can all go pear shaped when you are in the same room as the dog and child, i think 'never be trusted alone' means 'always being given direct supervision' (i.e you can defend child quickly if problem arose). Many would interpret this as not being left in the same room together alone. I would never have done that anyway.

We sorted out her food aggression by
1) teaching her to sit and wait until she was given a 'go ahead' command to eat
2) occasionally petting her back/head while she ate, and if she growled, removing the food from her reach. Only the trainer, myself and DH did this and the kids were never int he room while she was eating (they still aren't, simply because she eats in the kitchen)
3) She quickly learnt not to growl and to accept being approached and her food/bowl being touched while she ate.
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Hmmm, as far as I was aware this only leads to reinforcing to the dog that you are a threat to her food, and will take it away? It's quite an 'old school' way of dealing with it. It's much better for the dog to see you as the provider of food, not the one who will take it away. I might be wrong though, will be interested in what others say.

Also, another point to consider about kids sitting on dogs - labs are prone to arthritus (sp?) and hip problems. One day, the sitting on her may actually really hurt, and the dog couldn't be blamed for a pain reaction when it was easily avoidable.

The guinea pig desensitisation - a still/quiet gp on a lap is a whole different kettle of fish to some in a cage (a dog won't make that connection, thats way too advanced)

MosMum, credit to you, you haven't gone up like a rocket given that a few posts have been a bit, errr, brutally honest. I'm glad you seem to want to learn. That's the best thing you can do in this situation.

Trina x
 
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I would put the ginuea pigs outside - so they are not in her house. never heard of keeping ginuea pigs in a bedroom before - wont it smell?
 
We change their cage litter every other day and so far they don't smell.... the thing is we bought these pigs about 3 wks ago, and after a week I was thinking one was getting a bit fat... now I'm certain one is pregnant. I don't want to take them from an indoor petstore situation, to an indoor house situation, to an outdoor in the middle of winter situation while one is pregnant. In the states we often keep gp's indoors, I'm only now learning its not often done here...

Here are the pigs in question, just to make a few of us smile :)

163469_10150113041187565_752992564_7654712_4062305_n.jpg


The fluffy one is pregnant
 
trina1982 said:
Hmmm, as far as I was aware this only leads to reinforcing to the dog that you are a threat to her food, and will take it away? It's quite an 'old school' way of dealing with it. It's much better for the dog to see you as the provider of food, not the one who will take it away. I might be wrong though, will be interested in what others say.

Also, another point to consider about kids sitting on dogs - labs are prone to arthritus (sp?) and hip problems. One day, the sitting on her may actually really hurt, and the dog couldn't be blamed for a pain reaction when it was easily avoidable.

The guinea pig desensitisation - a still/quiet gp on a lap is a whole different kettle of fish to some in a cage (a dog won't make that connection, thats way too advanced)
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Agree with this ^^^

You should be seen as the provider of food, I would have thought that by using this method of food desensitization, that you are seen as the one who will take the food away. Although can't say I have much experience of this....my collie never has much of an appetite so I have a battle trying to get him to eat before my fat cat can get is paws on the dog food!

Please don't let your child sit on the dog, as said...they can be prone to hip problems. One day the child may actually hurt the dog, and you won't know that your dog is in pain until it is too late and the dog may have lashed out at your child purely as a reaction from pain....and not the dog's fault. It can be easily avoided.

I am surprised that you considered pts or re-homing because of this incident. At the end of the day....a dog is a dog, and 2 years old is still quite young. The problem lies with the training. I don't think you can expect the dog to learn to ignore guinea pigs running about in a cage, they are bred as gun dogs and a guinea pig is a prey animal! (also imo labs aren't all that smart :)) Keep the lab away from the guinea pigs (also are they not meant to be kept outside? Especially when it gets warmer as they graze the grass?).

Sorry but this seems like a small incident to be considering pts or rehoming for, especially as it can be easily avoided... but I am the owner of a slightly aggressive collie (no amount of training has worked, we have just had to learn how to handle him around other dogs) :)
 
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I really would get them outside or in a garage - our lived for years outdoors and they were fine - one gave birth to a large litter in the middle of winter and they survived - they are hardy creatures.

I have never heard of anyone keeping them in the bedroom - they are quite noisy too and that will just be teasing the dog if she can here them - I really dont think you are being fair on the dog
 
MosMum said:
Lynne and Gunnygundog, perhaps the trainer went about it this way because we DIDN'T do as you are suggesting when she was younger/when we first got her? When we brought her home, we immediately started teaching sit/stay/no mouthing people (which some people think is cute but I don't) but we just fed her in a bowl, not necessarily on her own but not by hand, either. Perhaps the trainer came too late in that respect, as we only called her out to the house when the dog started growling at us during feeding, until then we just attended classes. I'm not sure if that makes it any better in dog-training worlds or not, but its what I thought of....
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I got my dog at 13 weeks old, having lived in a stable and fighting off other pups for his food. The first night of having him, he sat and growled at us while we ate our dinner :eek: He then literally snarled if we even went in the kitchen when we gave him his food :eek:
We first of all started of by feeding a few bits of kibble and walking to the doorway (so he ate without growling). When he finished, we'd call him, walk to his bowl and put a few more in, then retreat again. Rinse, repeat...lots.
After a few days, he was getting more used to us hovering in the doorway, so we started to retreat away but actually stay in the kitchen. Same thing with the kibble.
Then i worked it to me sitting on the floor in the kitchen.
Then on the floor, bowl between my knees, dropping food in.
If he started to growl, i knew i was pushing him too quickly so went back a step.
Eventually, after many weeks, he would allow us to call his name, he would look up as we walked up to the bowl and we'd drop something in. Still do it occasionally. He doesn't growl at all now. I can call him off his food, ask him to sit and remove his bowl if i have to (i don't very often though because i hate being disturbed in the middle of my dinner, so try not to disturb his!)
I will say though that he is terrible with other animals, but we know that, and so do the animals!

Trina x
 
I have been very lucky, all my dogs, (even the ganet lab x springer who wasn't agressive she just wanted the food) if I wanted to take ANYTHING from them, their food, a toy, a treat, a bone - I've always just blooming well taken it! Even to the point of wrestling things out of my old dogs mouths!

That said I have never teased or taken away for the fun of it, any food that gets taken is replaced etc so perhaps that helps.
 
Trina, I like your method very much and wish I had known about it at the time, though it does kind of sound like common sense now that you've mentioned it and I feel pretty dull for NOT thinking of it! I guess I panic at the thought of aggressive dogs (not that growling means aggression, necessarily).

The PTS/Rehome impulse I have to say is strictly due to how I was raise. 7 children from a die-hard country type father, if the animal did not serve a purpose, dispose of it. I never felt comfortable with that but some form of it has stayed with me, and I am sorry to say I STILL maintain I would not feed/house a dangerous animal (that was more dangerous than any other of the same make and model- ie, with major behavioural issues) as long as I have young children at home. In the states, a dog turned over to the pound who has bitten is pts. A dog that bites a human has to be reported to police (unless it bit the owner) and risk being pts at their discretion.
I wouldn't rehome a dog that bit because I couldn't live with myself if it bit an unsuspecting stranger or child etc, IF the biting was due to aggression (which I assumed Pippin's was until you guys explained her point of view). I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself very well, I suppose in part its a cultural thing and in part a fear for my children thing, and I AM completely overprotective of my son because of his autism and epilepsy.
 
I would definitely always sit and give the dog food rather than do the remove the bowl version because if you have to remove the bowl the dog has already done something wrong. My view is it is best to keep good behaviour going by giving the food and having the dog being in a positive frame of mind. The reason I do it when they are puppies is that after a while their kibble bowls are down and full all the time. I prefer my dogs to eat this way then they graze through the day and it avoids bloat (something I am a bit paranoid about with big dogs).

I dont see a problem with piggies in the house, or bedroom...the big plastic cages they have now can be easily kept clean and aren't stinky like wooden cages would get. After all, quite a few people have house rabbits with no problems
 
Lynne and Gunnygundog, perhaps the trainer went about it this way because we DIDN'T do as you are suggesting when she was younger/when we first got her?

MosMum......the approach outlined works whether you are dealing with an 8 week old blank canvas of a puppy (obviously easier) or behavioural remodification in an older dog. The basic tenet is that YOU are the PROVIDER of all that is good with this method and NOT that you are the BARRIER to or REMOVER of all that is good. (Caps just for emphasis.)
 
I don't understand that MosMum. Mainly because you have the signature

"You dont throw a whole life away just 'cause its banged up a little" That suggests that you don't just PTS an animal because it has some problems.

Those problems may be earth shattering for you but they may not be for someone else. I personally couldn't care less if you rehome the bitch, what I do take exception to is putting a dog down that could likely serve a good purpose in the right home.

So in answer to the theory "if an animal doesn't serve a purpose dispose of it" - it may not serve a purpose to YOU in your house with your GPs and vunerable child but it could well do very well for someone else, so it does have a purpose and doesn't deserve to die simply because it cannot live with vunerable children and GPs...
 
Thanks gunnergundog I will mention this to the behaviouralist we contact and see if they think its something we can do with her now, even though she has no food aggression issues now, just to keep the good run of luck going! She does take treats from our hands and from the little one's hands (Natty can tell her to 'sit' and give her a treat when she does).

Can I just say to all, thankyou for the advise about her sitting on pippin, I honestly did not consider it a problem or even take notice of it, but I will explain to her best I can later today and we will have a new house rule about not sitting on the dog... we DO have rules for Caleb about pulling tails etc but unfortunately he tends to do it absent-mindedly so that will be a long work-in-progress...

Kitsmas, I don't agree with my father's theory, either, but I do think if you rehome a dangerous animal you are still ultimately responsible if it hurts someone, because you KNEW it was dangerous and rehomed it anyway. Therefore, I wouldn't rehome an animal that was dangerous.
 
We had labx who was a rescue and had been badly treated. he had fear agression which mproved greatly as he grew to trust us. However i never put him n situations which i thought he would be fearful in , eg. he was put in the garage when the girls' friends came round, he was never tied up, we didn't let strangers stroke him. he was fine with people who visited but we leet hm go to them rather them go to him. He needed careful management. One thing about him, he was never domnant - could take food and toys from him easily. What i am trying to say is that you will probably always have to manage him carefully, his aggression seems to be more domnant based. We had a rescue cross for a short while - she sadly got run over, and she was dominant towards the children, growling if the girls went near her toys, she was fine with us as she knew her place wth us, but tred it on with the gilrls. I never trust any dog with children and never leave them alone with a dog, even our soft red setter (sadly gone) or jrtx who s very good natured. You never know what your child might do to them!
Good Luck. btw we have had loads of gunea pigs, always kept outside or in garage when really cold, they thrved and luckily none of our dogs were bothered by them.
 
Xmas Calllycular said:
I still think by leaving the gineua pigs in the house you are just teasing the dog
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These are probably very young guinea pigs that will have been born inside at this time of year and never have been outside. This time of year you never see rabbits / GP in pet shops in outside runs. If they have any they are inside and are sold with instructions not to put them outside until the weather turns nice. They are just not used to it.

I imagine that is why the OP has them inside.
 
Xmas Calllycular said:
I still think by leaving the gineua pigs in the house you are just teasing the dog
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Me too :o

If you truly have a piece of garden 100% separate and completely safe from the dog, then put the hutch and run out there. If you're worried about the cold weather, then put lots of hay in for them, and cover the hutch at night with blankets/a duvet.

I can see why you think one of the GPs may well be pregnant. Do you know the sex of the other one? If it's a boy they may need separating, and GPs don't do well living alone.
 
MosMum.....just a quickie......if you are going down the behaviourist route as you mention above, please please do make sure they are APBC. Anyone can call themselves a behaviourist - it is not a protected name. I know people who have done correspondence courses with no practical and call themselves behaviourists; people who have done weekend only courses for 6 months and call themselves behaviourists and then people who have done full-time university degrees in canine psychology. There is a WORLD of difference! So, please pick your behaviourist and ask them about their qualifications and experience before proceeding....also, ask for references from clients with dogs who had similar problems to yours. Shop around and don't go to the first one you meet just because they are at the end of your street! This is something you need to get right.....and the sooner the better. You don't need any false starts with a 'charlatan' compounding the problem. :):)

A behaviourist should insist on you having a referral from your vet - if they don't get suspicious! Also, if you have dog insurance you may find that you will be able to claim against this.
 
MosMum said:
Kitsmas, I don't agree with my father's theory, either, but I do think if you rehome a dangerous animal you are still ultimately responsible if it hurts someone, because you KNEW it was dangerous and rehomed it anyway. Therefore, I wouldn't rehome an animal that was dangerous.
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But your perception of dangerous is wholly different to someone elses. Plus if you rehome to a stable, coherant adult in possession of all their faculties I'd imagine once you told them and they accepted the dog - it would be their responsibility not yours. However its your perogative of course. Put the dog down. Not the worst thing that could happen to it by a mile.
 
if you cant put them outside then what about bringing then downstairs where you can watch her with them and get her more used to hearing them etc
 
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