Dogs, dealers and organised crime

[Morwenna]

Panorama on now on BBC1 looking at the links between the extreme breeding and dealing of dogs and organised crime. Not at all surprising that there is a link but will be interesting to see if anything changes as a result of this.

 

[Jenko109]

Its absolutely disgusting. I am horrified. I had read about it but never actually seen the absolute state of these animals. Heartbreaking.

 

[Sandstone1]

I have just watched it. Absolutely awful. The state of some of those poor dogs. Crippled at six months, legs almost the wrong way round hardly able to walk. The poor mother of child killed by Beast. Its all so horrific.

 

[splashgirl45]

I’ve just watched and felt awful for the poor women who lost her son. also sorry for the poor dogs , how brutal was the chap punching the dog in the face, no wonder so many of these dogs turn on people…surely there must be some way that these dealers could be prosecuted, they are earning a fortune by cruelty to animals and contributing to the type of dogs who are responsible for fatalities.

 

[Jenko109]

They want banning. Nobody needs a dog this powerful. They have no place in society.

 

[BBP]

The write ups on the breeding tab of the website mentioned is insane. It looks like they bred one dog to his 'best sister' to create a 'freak' bitch. And now they are breeding that bitch back to her sire. I won't mention the name as don't want to give them any extra publicity.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

Just watched on catch up, the poor dogs at the rescue, it’s crazy the money they were being sold for

 

[SadKen]

My guess: they will go through the same process of every ‘devil dog’ breed.

Dog becomes fashionable due to society cachet and impression of ‘toughness’. Utter imbeciles buy said dogs, prices rocket. Unscrupulous breeders breed indiscriminately without thought for temperament or health, looking to emphasise the features idiots wanting social cachet are looking for. Dogs are born with poor temperament, genetic issues and physical deformity and sold because buyers are idiots, then rebred for more money again.

Now, dogs are in pain or have broken brains from their inbreeding compounded by being owned by the type of idiot wanting social cachet, who likely don’t walk them, train them, may knock them about because the type who want a tough dog want to be tough themselves and will take that out on a creature. Dogs start attacking other dogs and humans due to those triggers, and now the breed has a reputation as a devil dog.

If it follows the previous pattern, now some people will start to see the damage to their dogs. They start wanting health tests and pedigrees because their puppies are dropping dead or randomly attacking, they are unpredictable with everyone including their owners, and the breeders don’t care. Now having a bully has less cachet because they are in the news with health problems and the ‘tough’ aspect is slightly diminished. They have a place with drug dealers and the like, but even those become worried about their families and the market cools. Now what’s left are damaged dogs with generally caring owners, who try to rehabilitate with health tests, training and general good behaviour. The breed joins GSD, Rottie, Akita, ridgeback etc usually owned by enthusiasts. The cycle starts again.

A bar to this is that most of the other devil dogs had utility and purpose beyond guardianship and were bred for that purpose. XL bully are bred to kill, not to protect. How do you take out that instinct even if you fix temperament problems?

I looked it up today. According to wiki, 9 of 16 deaths in the uk in last 3 years are American or XL bully related. People are evil.

 

[stangs]

XL bully are bred to kill, not to protect. How do you take out that instinct even if you fix temperament problems?

No good bully breeder breeds the dogs to kill. Hell, a protective streak isn't even on breed standard. A bully should be a friendly, sociable animal that is as good with strangers as it is with its owners. They have a purpose, even if it isn't being well adhered to: being family dogs for urban-living folk.

 

[splashgirl45]

The good breeders are not the problem and unfortunately for a certain type of dog some breeders don’t care, as long as it makes them loads of money the dogs don’t matter and nor do the families who bought them in ignorance

 

[SadKen]

No good bully breeder breeds the dogs to kill. Hell, a protective streak isn't even on breed standard. A bully should be a friendly, sociable animal that is as good with strangers as it is with its owners. They have a purpose, even if it isn't being well adhered to: being family dogs for urban-living folk.

I’m sure that’s what we would like, but that’s not what they are being bred for now. It simply isn’t a priority for those paying big bucks for these dogs. I’m not a bully expert, they aren’t my breed. But my understanding was that bullies of any kind were bred for strong jaws to grab prey, lock on and bring it down - that was their original purpose and why they have such power and strong jaws?

 

[marmalade76]

I’m sure that’s what we would like, but that’s not what they are being bred for now. It simply isn’t a priority for those paying big bucks for these dogs. I’m not a bully expert, they aren’t my breed. But my understanding was that bullies of any kind were bred for strong jaws to grab prey, lock on and bring it down - that was their original purpose and why they have such power and strong jaws?

Indeed, and why would anyone want such a dog as a family pet?

 

[Sandstone1]

It was very disturbing to see the Mother of a child killed by one of these dogs. Also the state of some of the puppies, poor things. They did not ask to be born. The awful pain they must go through with having ears cropped. The fact that someone in jail can run a breeding business. Something needs to be done and now before someone else dies.

 

[stangs]

I’m sure that’s what we would like, but that’s not what they are being bred for now. It simply isn’t a priority for those paying big bucks for these dogs. I’m not a bully expert, they aren’t my breed. But my understanding was that bullies of any kind were bred for strong jaws to grab prey, lock on and bring it down - that was their original purpose and why they have such power and strong jaws?

Indeed, and why would anyone want such a dog as a family pet?

Not all bull type breeds were bred for the purpose you describe; it's just that they were bred from dogs who did have that purpose. Look at the French bulldog - no one's ever bred them to grab prey.

The bully has its jaws for solely aesthetic purposes: 1) to be able to contrast the look and the temperament, and 2) because it's a look that's popular among certain communities, having been popularised by hip-hop/rap, in the same way that movies have previously popularised the Dalmatian, Husky, etc. That's why you'd want them as a family pet: if you can pick out of n breeds that are all good with people, why wouldn't you choose the one that appeals to you appearance-wise?

Also, when you say "that's not what they are being bred for now", it's worth considering that:
a) Not all breeders are breeding them for that purpose; it's just that the bad breeders have the spotlight in the news, and it's the bad breeders' dogs that people outside of the breed's community hear about.
b) The only type in the news is XL bullies. Pocket and classic bullies haven't killed anyone, so you'd be hard pressed to say that anyone's breeding them to be "devil dogs".

 

[SadKen]

Stangs I don’t doubt that good breeders are out there, but they will be fewer in number as with all breeds, especially as the XL/American is relatively new. the demand for these big dogs is far outstripping what the good breeders can produce ethically, hence the shortfall is made up by really, really bad ones. I take the point re frenchies, pocket etc and absolutely agree they are no issue, but they are actually being bred to be companionable dogs and cute, and that’s what the market wants. There is no demand for an aggressive frenchie.

I certainly don’t understand the desire to have a dog as a family pet that’s massive with giant jaws which is consistently getting bad press (again XL/American bully, not frenchie). Those characteristics may be chosen for aesthetics now, but fundamentally those characteristics are just as effective at bringing down and killing as they were when selected for that purpose. Combined with unreliable temperament from the unscrupulous breeding practices, and there is a problem - perhaps more so if these dogs are being marketed as family friendly and suitable for the suburbs, when so many fatalities says otherwise.

 

[Dexter]

That's why you'd want them as a family pet: if you can pick out of n breeds that are all good with people, why wouldn't you choose the one that appeals to you appearance-wise?

Because the size and drive of these dogs makes them unsuitable maybe? These dogs are huge, incredibly powerful and with jaws designed to grip on.

I like the look of afghans. I think they are gorgeous. I don't have one as they arent suitable for my lifestyle. I'm struggling to think of anyone whose lifestyle is ideal for an XL/American bully.

 

[Cortez]

I'm struggling to think of anyone whose lifestyle is ideal for an XL/American bully.

Drug dealers and gang members, apparently.

 

[stormox]

Not all bull type breeds were bred for the purpose you describe; it's just that they were bred from dogs who did have that purpose. Look at the French bulldog - no one's ever bred them to grab prey.



Also, when you say "that's not what they are being bred for now", it's worth considering that:
a) Not all breeders are breeding them for that purpose; it's just that the bad breeders have the spotlight in the news, and it's the bad breeders' dogs that people outside of the breed's community hear about.
b) The only type in the news is XL bullies. Pocket and classic bullies haven't killed anyone, so you'd be hard pressed to say that anyone's breeding them to be "devil dogs".

These dogs should NOT be bred. No "deformed" dogs should be bred.
Breeding should be done for health soundness and temperament, not as a freak to satisfy human's vanity.
And these are not just freaks, they are dangerous freaks.

 

[splashgirl45]

Also in the program they are breeding hairless frenchies , that can’t be right

 

[bonny]

Also in the program they are breeding hairless frenchies , that can’t be right

Amazingly lucrative though, it never ceases to depress me what people will pay for some of these dogs. It’s the demand for them that’s fuelling the breeding.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Those poor bulldogs bred with massive amounts of loose skin. Feel so sorry for them. Why on earth do people find it attractive.
As regards ear cropping I think anyone who gets convicted of cropping ears should have their own ears cropped, preferably without pain relief.

 

[marmalade76]

Not all bull type breeds were bred for the purpose you describe; it's just that they were bred from dogs who did have that purpose. Look at the French bulldog - no one's ever bred them to grab prey.

The bully has its jaws for solely aesthetic purposes: 1) to be able to contrast the look and the temperament, and 2) because it's a look that's popular among certain communities, having been popularised by hip-hop/rap, in the same way that movies have previously popularised the Dalmatian, Husky, etc. That's why you'd want them as a family pet: if you can pick out of n breeds that are all good with people, why wouldn't you choose the one that appeals to you appearance-wise?

Also, when you say "that's not what they are being bred for now", it's worth considering that:
a) Not all breeders are breeding them for that purpose; it's just that the bad breeders have the spotlight in the news, and it's the bad breeders' dogs that people outside of the breed's community hear about.
b) The only type in the news is XL bullies. Pocket and classic bullies haven't killed anyone, so you'd be hard pressed to say that anyone's breeding them to be "devil dogs".

By "classic bullies" do you mean regular American Bull dogs? According to Wiki, two people were killed by them in this country over the last 12 months. There was also a man killed by three British Bulldogs.

Of the 17 fatal dog attacks in this country in the last 12 months, American bullies, be them XL, regular or crosses, were responsible for 9 of those deaths. Two of those 9 were crosses, two others were listed as American Bulldogs, not XL.

ETA - sorry, that's since 2020, not the last 12 months.

 

[stangs]

By "classic bullies" do you mean regular American Bull dogs? According to Wiki, two people were killed by them in this country over the last 12 months. There was also a man killed by three British Bulldogs.

Classic bullies are a type of American bully (lighter build than the XL) - they're therefore distinct from American bulldogs and absolutely nothing to do with British bulldogs.

 

[CorvusCorax]

There are plenty of breeds/types bred to kill/bring down prey/with strong jaws, minding their own business in pet/family homes.

 

[stormox]

There are plenty of breeds/types bred to kill/bring down prey/with strong jaws, minding their own business in pet/family homes.

Agree- but most have been bred for trainable temperament also.

 

[only_me]

As regards ear cropping I think anyone who gets convicted of cropping ears should have their own ears cropped, preferably without pain relief.

It appears ear cropping has indeed made it into gang torture/revenge, instead of the knee capping which then became calf capping it has moved onto ”ear cropping”. I’m told the extent of the ear cap depends on the severity of their situation. D

 

[some show]

One of Hope Rescue's pocket bullies that was featured on the show (Keanu) is up for rehoming on their site (page 5) now - the deformity of his front legs is unbelievable. https://www.hoperescue.org.uk/dogs-for-adoption

Hope Rescue (and others with a conscience) are constantly picking up the pieces, having to spend thousands of pounds on fixing the health issues of, primarily, fashionable bull breeds and shar-peis, and having to make the sad decisions when they're unfixable. The money and kennel space used on these dogs - the breeders of which are making a fortune and don't give a **** about where they end up - could be going to actual strays, racing greyhounds etc who are now ending up being pts in pounds because there are no free rescue places for them. I feel so sorry for people involved in rescue right now, it must be a heartbreaking slog at times.

 

[Jenko109]

They have a double merle on there too.

Something seriously needs to be done to stop just anyone breeding.

 

[SilverLinings]

I haven't watched the programme yet, and after seeing the comments on here and reading the BBC News article about it I'm not sure I entirely want to. It is interesting that the illegality of ear cropping is mentioned in the programme as about a year ago I was babysitting a young teenage girl who wanted to watch a fashion programme made by- and shown on- the BBC (I think it was about young designers trying to get start-up funding), and it featured bullies with cropped ears in the 'photoshoot' segment. The ears were severely cropped, but the dogs were seen as a good 'prop' in the programme and no mention was made of their looks. It did make me wonder how much of the general public is aware that ear cropping is illegal (or even that the ears don't naturally look like that)?

There was a letter in the Times at the weekend written in response to the dog walker attack, written by someone who is a dog owner. They said that the answer to the tough/macho/intentionally aggressive dogs and the untrained/uncared for dogs that are causing so many injuries and fatalities is to make all dogs wear a muzzle outside the home. IMO this isn't a good solution, partly as a lot of attacks happen within the dog's home. But they did then point out that if all dogs had to be muzzled then it might reduce the impact walking a 'tough' looking dog has, and therefore reduce their appeal to irresponsible humans, and I can see that that may be true.

I don't think a blanket muzzling law is the right solution, but finding a way to stop the wrong sorts of dogs being appealing to the wrong sorts of people would certainly help. Maybe some sort of nationwide ad campaign showing little girls in pink tutus taking bullies for a walk (with ping bows on their ears and sparkly nail varnish on their claws), saying 'every little girl dreams of having a bully to dress up and love' would help?! The child might need to be photoshopped into the picture for safety though...

 

[stangs]

There was a letter in the Times at the weekend written in response to the dog walker attack, written by someone who is a dog owner. They said that the answer to the tough/macho/intentionally aggressive dogs and the untrained/uncared for dogs that are causing so many injuries and fatalities is to make all dogs wear a muzzle outside the home. IMO this isn't a good solution, partly as a lot of attacks happen within the dog's home. But they did then point out that if all dogs had to be muzzled then it might reduce the impact walking a 'tough' looking dog has, and therefore reduce their appeal to irresponsible humans, and I can see that that may be true.

It's an interesting thought, but I would have thought wearing a muzzle would add to the intimidating look?