Dominant horse - getting professional help

[rescuearacehorse]

I have a 4yr old gelding who is big and increasingly dominant. He’s not ridden due to a health issue so he’s fresh and frustrated.

It’s getting to the point where he’s getting dangerous to be around, he reared at me today when I asked him to get out of my space.

He’s difficult to lead, bolshy, terrible with his feet. Won’t stand still etc.

I clearly need some professional help, but when people say ‘get some professional help’ who do they actually mean? There are plenty of local instructors (all women) but I can’t imagine any would want to get involved in helping. What if they got hurt??

I don’t know what to do so looking for some pointers.

I’ve watched a million YouTube videos on ground work and I just feel I’m going to get hurt. He’d flatten me in a flash. Every time I do something with him I get hurt in some way (black eye, bang on head, grazed arm, bruises everywhere…)

 

[AmyMay]

I thought you were putting him down?

 

[AmyMay]

Your post from 12th July

Update
Horse had a full workup today and unfortunately has been diagnosed as a wobbler. He is showing "very obvious clinical signs" of it. I'd not even considered it but every test that was carried out, with the vet's explanations was so obvious.
I asked if the dealer would have known this when he was sold to me 6 months ago and vet said it would be impossible to prove, but a good vetting (not an Irish one!) should have found it. It's likely that as he's grown so much over the past 5 months the issue that was already there, was exacerbated to a point of being very obvious. Apparently it's something they grow into.
Vet offered additional diagnostics of CT scan and xrays but felt it would just confirm the obvious, but cost at least another £3.5k.
It's retirement (age 4) or euthanasia, sadly it will have to be the latter as he's huge and although gorgeous, not safe for the farrier or others that need to handle him. Completely heart breaking.

 

[rescuearacehorse]

Hi AmyMay, yes I was, however as you can imagine it’s extremely hard to do. He’s also changed considerably in past month and showing very little spoof ataxia, so I was hoping that he would continue to improve. I have my own farm and land so it’s not an issue to give him a bit of time.
I hope your post and concern is sent with kindness? We all know how much we want to do the right thing by our horses.

 

[SEL]

I remember your post. I'm never usually one who says PTS when they can have a good retirement but one of the nastiest horses I've ever known turned out to have compressed vertebrae in his neck. I can't imagine how much pain he must have been in.

Please don't get hurt here or expect someone else to get hurt if this is a horse in pain.

 

[TPO]

I thought you were putting him down?

That does sound like the safest option for you both and kindest for him.

Sorry that you're in the position. Animal ownership and making these calls is tough, we do have to be practical and put the horse first.

 

[rescuearacehorse]

Your post from 12th July

Yes, and?
Excuse me for not jumping straight to the bullet?

 

[AmyMay]

Absolutely meant with concern and kindness.

At this stage, concern primarily for you and your safety.

 

[rescuearacehorse]

It’s very hard to accept that the only answer is to PTS when he’s showing very little, if any symptoms of wobbler. That’s all.
In fact it was a second vet who said that he wasn’t presenting any symptoms that he would worry about and this has made me think I should give him a bit of time. The first vet suggested one option would be to have another work up in 4 months and see if he’s any different (he’s already very different to how he was in June/July)

 

[AmyMay]

It’s very hard to accept that the only answer is to PTS when he’s showing very little, if any symptoms of wobbler. That’s all.
In fact it was a second vet who said that he wasn’t presenting any symptoms that he would worry about and this has made me think I should give him a bit of time. The first vet suggested one option would be to have another work up in 4 months and see if he’s any different (he’s already very different to how he was in June/July)

Well that’s great news. I’d find a competent jockey then to crack on with him and a good trainer to help with manners.

 

[sassandbells]

Sorry to hear you’re going through this. When I was having issues with my previous mare anyone I approached for help wanted full vet work ups to rule out pain before they would help.

It’s a bit concerning that one vet said wobblers and another has said it’s not because at the moment it’s still a guessing game really, and you don’t know what the cause of the behaviour is.

I’d probably be looking at getting the horse thoroughly investigated before approaching a professional. I spent thousands getting investigations & treatment, getting a professional to help and then we’d hit a block in our progress, have more investigations and find something else going on. It was a very expensive journey and in the end I had no other option than to PTS.

Please try and keep yourself safe in the meantime. There is normally a reason for this kind of behaviour, but trying to figure out what that reason is can be so difficult.

 

[DSB]

Before you ask someone to ride him,tell them he may be a wobbler and make sure your insurance will cover all contingenies.

 

[SEL]

It sounds like you are least need X rays if you're getting two different views from vets. They aren't ridiculously expensive.

It isn't fair to the horse nor anyone coming in to work with him not to have a clear diagnosis one way or another.

I know it's hard when they're so young but behaviour like this is very often pain.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

Deleted: turnout question answered by other thread.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

I clearly need some professional help, but when people say ‘get some professional help’ who do they actually mean? There are plenty of local instructors (all women) but I can’t imagine any would want to get involved in helping. What if they got hurt??

I don't understand this, just get the best person for you and the horse. Their gender has no impact.

Any professional will be experienced in keeping themselves safe.

 

[ycbm]

Taking into account the information in your last thread about him, he is telling you that he is in serious pain somewhere. I would have him PTS before he really hurts, or kills, someone.

If you really can't bear to do that he needs more veterinary investigations immediately.

I suspect that the last thing that you and he need at the moment is a behaviourist.

.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Has this horse got plenty of turnout and another horse as a companion?

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

Has this horse got plenty of turnout and another horse as a companion?

According to the other thread, 24/7 turnout with two others. No hard feed.

 

[Bellaboo18]

According to the other thread, 24/7 turnout with two others. No hard feed.

Ah yes sorry, I'd missed that post. I'd seen an old post that potentially sounded like OP keeps one horse at a time at home.

 

[maya2008]

Aggression = pain in a prey animal, unless you literally have it backed in a corner and it is unable to escape and terrified.

I have a lead mare (so dominant) 4yo who is not yet backed due to still being feral and not responding to the handling techniques used at her previous home. She’s not aggressive in the slightest. We have also taken on unbacked 4yo and 5yo ponies - geldings - and they were never aggressive towards humans.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

I misread behaviour in my unbacked 3yo as aggression but it was 'play' behaviour because he needed a turnout buddy. Having company over a fence wasn't enough.

This sounds more like pain.

 

[Birker2020]

It’s very hard to accept that the only answer is to PTS when he’s showing very little, if any symptoms of wobbler. That’s all.
In fact it was a second vet who said that he wasn’t presenting any symptoms that he would worry about and this has made me think I should give him a bit of time. The first vet suggested one option would be to have another work up in 4 months and see if he’s any different (he’s already very different to how he was in June/July)

read my reply to another post 45

Rearing youngster

I would x ray his neck too, a friend's horse had clear back x rays but an issue in the neck at C5. She was paid out lou for explosive bucking in a 6 year old IDx.

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

My horse was intermittently a wobblers to start with (as you can see we weren't aware to start with due to a plethora of misdiagnosis by vet and chiropractor.) But as time went on he got progressively worse.

I made the decision because I knew there was a certainty that one day he'd be recumbent and unable to rise. Imagine how you'd feel to find your horse in a big muddy puddle in the field sweated and panicky because he couldn't get up. I wouldn't have wished that on my worst enemy so had him pts.

I know it's an incredibly hard decision but you owe it to him. It's a condition that he won't recover from and a progressive one at that and as times goes on, as I found, my horse had less time betwwen ataxic episodes. And despite what some posters like to pretend otherwise, I have always done my very best for all my horses within my means. The only reason he wasn't pts before was because the useless vet believed he had EHV and only when that was ruled out did we get a definite diagnosis.

I'm so sorry. P.M me if you want a chat off screen, 100% in confidence. Anne x

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Yes it is difficult to look something in the eye when you've got it on your place, and make "the decision".......... so am hearing where you are coming from OP.

However, at the end of the day you have to consider not only your own safety but if you are wanting someone to come and work with this horse alongside you, you will need to be totally up-front and honest with them about any issues. It seems that there IS possibly a veterinary reason for the behaviour.

What I would advise is you get this horse thoroughly assessed by not just your own vet but also get a 2nd opinion. I think you firstly owe it to the horse; AND to yourself - because if there is a clinical reason for his behaviour - and this is unlikely to improve, then sadly you may need to make a tough decision.

Am trying to be realistic here as well as compassionate. At the end of the day we all have to consider our own safety and that of others around us.

So sorry you are in this position.

 

[ycbm]

It’s very hard to accept that the only answer is to PTS when he’s showing very little, if any symptoms of wobbler. That’s all.
In fact it was a second vet who said that he wasn’t presenting any symptoms that he would worry about and this has made me think I should give him a bit of time. The first vet suggested one option would be to have another work up in 4 months and see if he’s any different (he’s already very different to how he was in June/July)

I hear what you're saying but as I understand it there has been a change and the change is increasing aggression. To me that indicates pain, possibly quite severe.

My own wobbler was doing a couple of three time tempi changes when his neck cracked and he was unable to walk out of the arena on a straight line.

It's a very difficult situation to be in, with which I sympathise, but I think you need to either throw money at vets or have the horse PTS, sadly.

 

[irishdraft]

To answer your original question there are plenty of males working with difficult horses who can help you with groundwork and give you some pointers. Jason Webb, Micheal Pearce, Warwick Schiller to name a few. I've only know 3 aggressive horse in over 40 years of working on yards & having my own, 2 of those were pain related, one wasn't he needed a different owner & environment which he got. Hope you can find the right answer for your horse .

 

[Upthecreek]

What a horrible situation to be in with such a young horse. I can understand how you must feel having received conflicting information from the two vets, but unless you are prepared to spend the money on further investigations to get a confirmed diagnosis (or rule things out), the kindest and safest thing would be to PTS. I can also understand you wanting to give him time, but this is only really an option if he is definitely not in pain and his behaviour indicates that he is. Aggressive and dangerous behaviour towards humans is nearly always due to pain.

I think you will struggle to get a professional who is happy to work with him unless you have further veterinary investigations.

 

[Melody Grey]

That’s a long time to retire an unridden 4 yr old. I have come into contact with literally hundreds of horses and only ever a handful of genuinely aggressive ones and they all turned out to be riddled with problems.

I’m sorry, but I’m not sure I would continue with this one for safety and also the potential prognosis being poor and degenerative if it is wobblers.

 

[Cortez]

Aggression in horses is often associated with pain, but not always. The only truly aggressive horses I've come across were suffering with brain tumours (2 cases), a foal-proud mustang mare, and an orphan foal spoiled literally out of it's mind. The first thing is to establish if the horse has wobblers or not. If it does then attempting to ride it would be unethical, and possibly dangerous to whoever is doing the riding. Wobblers is progressive and as far as I'm aware untreatable, in which case it would be kinder to put it down.

 

[paddy555]

It’s very hard to accept that the only answer is to PTS when he’s showing very little, if any symptoms of wobbler. That’s all.
In fact it was a second vet who said that he wasn’t presenting any symptoms that he would worry about and this has made me think I should give him a bit of time. The first vet suggested one option would be to have another work up in 4 months and see if he’s any different (he’s already very different to how he was in June/July)

did those vets explain why he was aggressive?

It seems you have 2 choices as to why he is behaving so badly in hand. He is in pain or alternatively he is a young horse who has taken over with his poor manners and needs some education.

Aggression in horses is often associated with pain, but not always. The only truly aggressive horses I've come across were suffering with brain tumours (2 cases), a foal-proud mustang mare, and an orphan foal spoiled literally out of it's mind. The first thing is to establish if the horse has wobblers or not. If it does then attempting to ride it would be unethical, and possibly dangerous to whoever is doing the riding. Wobblers is progressive and as far as I'm aware untreatable, in which case it would be kinder to put it down.

If you intend to ride in the future that is the first thing. If however you simply want to keep him as a pet and you have your own land and the money to do so you need to establish if he is in pain or just being bad mannered and walking all over you. I would employ someone to work on his for a couple of sessions, nothing wrong with girls in fact they may be better than someone using a more dominant approach. See if he can be trained. A professional should be able to tell you if he is responding as one would expect a normal badly behaved horse to. If he simply won't be trained to do something simple such as stand still, lead, stop and the basics then I think you have to consider he could well be misbehaving due to pain. If so then it really wouldn't be fair to keep a horse who has to live in constant pain.

 

[Winters100]

To me there are a few things here.

1. I would not worry about the safety of an experienced professional provided I had given them complete information - if they have the full story then they are able to make a more informed decision than I am about the risks.

2. No amount of training can help if it is pain related, which sounds highly likely here, so if you want to carry on then it is the first thing to be investigated.

3. No horse suffers after being PTS. While I agree that it should not be a decision to be made lightly, it is also a decision which does need to be made in a timely manner.

Your horse is lucky to have an owner who cares, good luck with making these difficult decsions.