"Don't worry about where the head is" pondering...

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Maia

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So I thought the over bending thread was a really interesting read with lots of food for thought...

However it got me thinking about the so commonly used statement, which I read on here all the time "don't worry about where the head is..." And the fact this is almost only exclusively used for horses IFV but where a horse is BTV then "where the head is" becomes a point for scrutiny and critism...

Am I the only one that has noticed this and would anyone care to discuss it?

IMO, the rational for the "don't worry about where the head is, the horse will come 'onto the bit' when it is working correctly from behind into the hand" applies to both IFV and BTV so why is it only used for the former?
 
I thought that that was said to try and discourage the rider from cranking the head in to create a false outline. When the horse is behind the vertical then this potentially highlights a different set of problems altogether (with the proviso it isn't necessarily a problem and can be a useful and important part of training) which are either related to the head already being cranked in or the horse being on the forehand. So with BTV where the head is can be more symptomatic of a training flaw than IFV.

I think.
 
When it comes to young/green/low level horses, I don't worry where there head is. AT ALL. If they naturally carry BTV (which out of all the ones I've broken and ridden two of them did) I ignore that too. You can train for the problems behind being BTV if done in avoidance, but I don't worry about the head itself - that sorts out when you sort out the root problem, in either case.

Quality of contact and where the head is are two different things though.
 
(Slightly playing devils advocate so not saying I disagree with you) but would the rationale that when the horse is in front of the leg and working forward into the hand, the correction (of being 'on the bit') will happen irrespective of where the head is (and I'm not referring to when the rider had 'put' the horse into a different frame for schooling purposes; but when the horse has dropped off the contact)...
 
khalswitz said:
Quality of contact and where the head is are two different things though.
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Agree totally with this, however, the danger is that in "not worrying about where the head is" you stop worrying about the contact and end up with a horse that goes around falling out the front with its nose poking because there is no contact.

I think it's really important that when telling people to forget about the head, having and maintaining a contact is still essential as it is a very common misconception to make and long term can be a difficult schooling issue to correct (and that is speaking from bitter experience)
 
Maia said:
Agree totally with this, however, the danger is that in "not worrying about where the head is" you stop worrying about the contact and end up with a horse that goes around falling out the front with its nose poking because there is no contact.

I think it's really important that when telling people to forget about the head, having and maintaining a contact is still essential as it is a very common misconception to make and long term can be a difficult schooling issue to correct (and that is speaking from bitter experience)
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Definitely. Ride for a quality contact, ride forward and think about engaging the hindquarters - the actual head position comes from that. So by ignoring *where* the head is, you're not ignoring the head itself...
 
milo'n'molly said:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T4En5qU5lps

On the subject, what are your thoughts on this video? The horse has been taught the tricks and works on the vertical with a bridle but without a bit his choice is to be above the vertical.
Opinions?
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Hmm, tricky. Part of me wants to say that part of 'outline' is acceptance of the bit - without a contact, therefore, shouldn't the outline look different? However that is just my feeling.

My lad will work LDR on the lunge without any gadgets at all once warmed up - would love to know why he chooses to do that too!
 
I would argue that that is a "trick horse" rather than a dressage horse and so it is difficult to be objective... I would also say that I am not an expert (or even a particularly good rider) so am not the best person to comment.

My post was more about the fact that people are very quick to say "don't worry about the head..." For horses IFV but not when they are BTV when instead the rider is criticised for it... Is it not slightly judgemental? One is deemed "bad" and something that is frowned upon; while the other is deemed something "not to worry about"....
 
Maia said:
I would argue that that is a "trick horse" rather than a dressage horse and so it is difficult to be objective... I would also say that I am not an expert (or even a particularly good rider) so am not the best person to comment.

My post was more about the fact that people are very quick to say "don't worry about the head..." For horses IFV but not when they are BTV when instead the rider is criticised for it... Is it not slightly judgemental? One is deemed "bad" and something that is frowned upon; while the other is deemed something "not to worry about"....
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I totally agree! Loads of people ride ifv with no real concern about what theyre doing or how theyre affecting their horses muscles but btv is completely frowned upon!
 
Farma said:
I totally agree! Loads of people ride ifv with no real concern about what theyre doing or how theyre affecting their horses muscles but btv is completely frowned upon!
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This could be because a horse just lolloping along with its' nose stuck out is completely a lack of education issue, whereas a horse going BTV has "gone wrong" somewhere along the way and is MUCH more difficult to fix.
 
Cortez said:
This could be because a horse just lolloping along with its' nose stuck out is completely a lack of education issue, whereas a horse going BTV has "gone wrong" somewhere along the way and is MUCH more difficult to fix.
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^^^ this. IFV is always 'less bad' in my book than BTV, plus a horse BTV is usually being ridden that way. IMO, you see very few horses who naturally carry themselves BTV with no rein contact at all, thus BTV is usually a man made issue.

Maybe if someone is saying 'Dont worry about where the head is' they are actually trying to find a polite way of saying 'Stop trying to pull your horses head in' esp as most horses of whom I've head that comment used were so far behind the leg the rider could have been walking in front of them, and had riders who were using too much hand to haul the horses head into an 'outline'....
 
Yes you have a point but the education is wrong in both instances and to me not necessarily better or worse in either case.
 
Cortez said:
This could be because a horse just lolloping along with its' nose stuck out is completely a lack of education issue, whereas a horse going BTV has "gone wrong" somewhere along the way and is MUCH more difficult to fix.
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This. Although I have known two youngsters that I broke myself who, on taking a contact, would bring themselves BTV. They did grow out of this though, I just was careful to have them in very gentle bits and not get strong in the hand at all. And in fact one of them now goes round with her nose permanently stuck out for her owner, three years later...
 
I think not worrying about where the head is, actually means just concentrate on the rest of the body and ensuring the horse is working into a contact and the head will generally sort itself out.
A horse which is behind the vertical is evading the contact and so I think this is much worse that a horse which is on a contact but isn't sufficiently soft in the poll or jaw (in front of the vertical) poking the nose is also an evasion but far less of an issue imo as you are able to have a contact and ride the horse to it. It is far harder to have a contact with a horse which has learned to shorten it's neck.
 
First thing to teach a young horse is to move FORWARDS from the aids in a RHYTHM with a RELAXED swinging back. A correct CONTACT cannot be achieved until the first three things are established, just as you can't ask for collection until you have established straightness and impulsion. Basic scales of training people...
 
siennamum said:
It is far harder to have a contact with a horse which has learned to shorten it's neck.
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It just requires self discipline from the rider. You want to shorten the neck? Fine I will shorten the reins to maintain the contact until the horse learns that there is no evading the contact. Add a little inside flexion and pretty soon the horse will ask to stretch because it is pretty uncomfortable holding your nose into your chest! You just need to be determined enough to have that conversation with the horse and quick enough to allow it to stretch forward and down as soon as you feel them ask!
 
zizz said:
It just requires self discipline from the rider. You want to shorten the neck? Fine I will shorten the reins to maintain the contact until the horse learns that there is no evading the contact. Add a little inside flexion and pretty soon the horse will ask to stretch because it is pretty uncomfortable holding your nose into your chest! You just need to be determined enough to have that conversation with the horse and quick enough to allow it to stretch forward and down as soon as you feel them ask!
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Nice theory; in practise there ARE horses which are perfectly content to go about with their noses on their chests, and just shortening the reins to "punish" the horse into going out with the nose isn't the way to achieve a correct contact, nor is tricking about with flexions. The way to teach a horse to trust and seek the hand, rather than shrinking from it, is to send it forwards from the leg (forwards, not rushing) and keep offering the contact. Every single horse I've had to correct from BTV has been behind the leg, as well as frightened of the rider's hand. Horses which poke the nose are usually simply not being asked to give to the hand, usually through rider ignorance. You can ride the horse forward/engage your core/whatever, all you like; if you don't use the hand properly and ask the horse to give it'll never happen.
 
A horse that is in front of the vertical can be taught to work with a relaxed back and will learn to carry itself if ridden correctly. However this takes a long time and it is easy to pull the head in with a hollow back and ride BTV.
 
But BTV or IFV to horse should be worked forward to the hand and horses IFV can be much more stiff, hollow and using themselves much worse (and potentially with much worse long term consequences - notice I used the word "can") AND can be less forward and less accepting of the hand, than a horse that is BTV... Yet often this goes ignored because the horse is IFV.

How often do you see pictures of horses running along OTFH with their noses poking and see comments like "if you ride much more forwards so that you feel the horse pulling/pushing into the hand (not running!) the quality of the work will improve... Etc Etc"... Rarely unless during instruction with a good instructor. Instead there is an attitude of the horse is not BTV so it's ok. Well actually this isn't *always* true. And, as discussed extensively on the other thread, BTV is not *always* a bad thing.

Either way, the horse should be forwards and, as said above, working in rhythm, into the contact and accepting of this... That should be the message should it not?
 
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Many horses will come BTV all on their own its a myth that it's always the rider hauling the horse there and yes often I just ignore it .
 
Maia said:
But BTV or IFV to horse should be worked forward to the hand and horses IFV can be much more stiff, hollow and using themselves much worse (and potentially with much worse long term consequences - notice I used the word "can") AND can be less forward and less accepting of the hand, than a horse that is BTV... Yet often this goes ignored because the horse is IFV.

How often do you see pictures of horses running along OTFH with their noses poking and see comments like "if you ride much more forwards so that you feel the horse pulling/pushing into the hand (not running!) the quality of the work will improve... Etc Etc"... Rarely unless during instruction with a good instructor. Instead there is an attitude of the horse is not BTV so it's ok. Well actually this isn't *always* true. And, as discussed extensively on the other thread, BTV is not *always* a bad thing.

Either way, the horse should be forwards and, as said above, working in rhythm, into the contact and accepting of this... That should be the message should it not?
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Completely agree with you! To me they are both as bad as each other.
 
The pony I ride would occasionally go BTV but I've always corrected him gently and he now rarely does it, it was never a big issue he was just learning to balance as he is young and I would much rather that than ride some of the horses I have in the past that continually have been allowed to go IFV, which are stiff, on the forehand, huge muscles under the neck from hollowing and really quite unpleasant to ride.
 
Cortez said:
Nice theory; in practise there ARE horses which are perfectly content to go about with their noses on their chests, and just shortening the reins to "punish" the horse into going out with the nose isn't the way to achieve a correct contact, nor is tricking about with flexions. The way to teach a horse to trust and seek the hand, rather than shrinking from it, is to send it forwards from the leg (forwards, not rushing) and keep offering the contact. Every single horse I've had to correct from BTV has been behind the leg, as well as frightened of the rider's hand. Horses which poke the nose are usually simply not being asked to give to the hand, usually through rider ignorance. You can ride the horse forward/engage your core/whatever, all you like; if you don't use the hand properly and ask the horse to give it'll never happen.
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This. And I would even add to the bit about some horses being fine with the super short neck, that some are really, really not fine with it and by following that approach religiously you can turn a small problem into a big one. I ride a horse like that and a few people have been hurt using that method on him. As with all things, courses for horses.
 
There is a difference between a horse being basically fine in the hand and occasionally tipping lower or nose in because of balance issues or momentary pressure, and one coming behind the hand consistently. I'm sorry, but the second may "come naturally" to some horses but it's not "okay" and, in my experience, something that people think is fine because it looks pretty initially and then it causes huge problems later, especially for horses that jump.

And yes, of course, a stiff, locked up horse actively shoving the rider's hand away is a problem, but a young horse going along with the nose out a bit, on a soft relaxed contact, easily steerable is not, in my opinion "worse off". After all, that is the posture horses assume naturally. It may not be ideal for riding but it's natural and understandable. I have not seen a horse that CONSISTENTLY spends its days with its nose behind the vertical - how would it see where it was going?? An excited horse with a round neck and light throat conformation will tuck its nose and yes, this might come "naturally" to it and therefor be more likely a path of resistance/evasion for that particular horse, but I wouldn't call that "natural".
 
As I said earlier "behind the vertical" and "behind the hand" are not the same thing and should not be assumed to be interchangeable.
 
I have one of each of the horse described. A green older gelding who will really stretch his neck out and isn't especially round, and a younger horse whose default is nose tucked in.

Not being able to ride to the hand is the huge problem with the overbent horse and the worst thing we could do is have a stronger contact. In fact we have a neutral contact, providing space for him to fill & encouraging him to stretch to the rein.

I think it is important to remember that the head should really do nothing but hang there. The horse shouldn't actively pull it's head in. If it sticks it's nose out it isn't a problem with head position imo but one of horse not elevating it's neck & shoulder.
 
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