Double standards when it comes to Cruelty...

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lloyd

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In light of the recent video which we can all agree shows a jockey deliberately being cruel to a horse I am alarmed at the double standards shown by many horse owners.

I have been following the threads on this forum and a page set up on facebook and seen some comments that have disgusted me - comparing what was filmed as being comparable to abuse against people and such.

My issue is that whilst the rider should not have been hitting the horse when it was doing nothing wrong - we see the exact same happening every week. Infact you dont have to search you tube to find examples , you can walk into a ladbrooks or turn on channel 4 at the weekend and watch it your self.

I am of course talking about Racing , which shows horses repeatedly getting struck with whips for doing nothing wrong infact even when they are leading races. When a horse is at the point of exhaustion and yet the rider is frightening it into giving more - how can this be fair and all the while we accept that this is acceptable ?. Mean while as a result of a video going viral people are posting that " maybe we should do the same to her kids and see how she likes it".

Disgraceful.

And i am sure a good number of people on here would support fox hunting which sees an animal come to an end.
 
Really? Have you ever actually handled a racing whip, they're nothing more than hard foam....I hit myself really hard with one and it didn't hurt........at all! Plus they have regulations regarding the number of strikes, etc.

And fox hunting? Don't get me started! Would you rather we used more snares? Have you actually been hunting and know ALL the facts before you start? HAve you ever seen what foxes do to livestock? For example killing 24 chickens and NOT taking even one to eat. Plus hunting only weeds out the weak, any healthy fox will easily outrun hounds.
 
MillionDollar said:
Really? Have you ever actually handled a racing whip, they're nothing more than hard foam....I hit myself really hard with one and it didn't hurt........at all! Plus they have regulations regarding the number of strikes, etc.

And fox hunting? Don't get me started! Would you rather we used more snares? Have you actually been hunting and know ALL the facts before you start? HAve you ever seen what foxes do to livestock? For example killing 24 chickens and NOT taking even one to eat. Plus hunting only weeds out the weak, any healthy fox will easily outrun hounds.
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Not commenting about the racing but sorry hunting is indiscriminate, the fox is persued until he/she is exhausted, then if he does go to ground some kindly soul digs him out with a terrier. Hunting people like to think that it weeds out the weak to justify their "sport", & what do you all think "autumn hunting" is? Don't think the young cubs who are just fending for themselves are particularly weak, & if any do break away, the ring of riders waiting around the edge of the covert herd them back in to be killed by the young hounds who are being trained.
 
MillionDollar said:
Really? Have you ever actually handled a racing whip, they're nothing more than hard foam....I hit myself really hard with one and it didn't hurt........at all! Plus they have regulations regarding the number of strikes, etc.

And fox hunting? Don't get me started! Would you rather we used more snares? Have you actually been hunting and know ALL the facts before you start? HAve you ever seen what foxes do to livestock? For example killing 24 chickens and NOT taking even one to eat. Plus hunting only weeds out the weak, any healthy fox will easily outrun hounds.
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So its the fear of getting hitten that makes the horses run faster ? If so then could we just agree that its intimidation then , and thats ok ? And yeah its ok to do so because its regulated , would you imagine the kennel club to sign off on hitting / intimidating the dogs into performing better.

As I said its double standards , that video was shocking but it is hardly a revelation when we have a sport that sanctions thats it ok to whip horses x amount of times regardless how well the horse is performing.

Also on the fox hunting front are you saying that foxes deserve to be hunted down with and killed because their value of life is less than anothers ?

Im afraid the whole arguement if flawed if we say its ok to be cruel to these animals but its not ok to be cruel to others , I am just making the point that it seems like double standards.
 
I'm not getting into an argument because quite frankly I have better things to do, but I totally disagree with you. IMO there is nothing wrong with racing or hunting. Foxes kill our livestock for fun, so we will kill them for fun and controlling them!

BTW I'm guessing you're a vegetarian? And never wear or use leather? Because if you're not/don't then you're cruel!
 
Foxhunting has been banned!

As for racing there are very strict rules in place about the number of times the horse can be smacked and any horse that shows marks means the jockey is suspended thus losing out on income.
 
I do agree with the op, i have seen some shocking sights at dressage and showjumping competitions which are accepted by fellow competitors as 'the norm', it isnt just one aspect of equestrianism i think you can find examples of this everywhere.
 
LEC said:
Foxhunting has been banned!

As for racing there are very strict rules in place about the number of times the horse can be smacked and any horse that shows marks means the jockey is suspended thus losing out on income.
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Fox hunting may be banned but the hunts are in general just carrying on with business as usual.
 
MillionDollar said:
I'm not getting into an argument because quite frankly I have better things to do, but I totally disagree with you. IMO there is nothing wrong with racing or hunting. Foxes kill our livestock for fun, so we will kill them for fun and controlling them!

BTW I'm guessing you're a vegetarian? And never wear or use leather? Because if you're not/don't then you're cruel!
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Please dont make this thread a personal issue , I believe I am making a point which is valid regardless how many burgers I eat and how many pairs of hush puppies I own.

I can understand you believe that there is nothing wrong with racing or hunting , many many people share your opinion , but I believe there are similarities when you hurt an animal for no good reason , regardless of how many times that may be.

This woman has been singled out as a target when there are examples much worse being deemed morally acceptable just because its more publically acceptable.
 
Well, you don't need to wear leather shoes so effectively you're hurting an animal for no good reason.

Nearly ALL humans use animals to suit their own means. It's just a matter of where you draw the line really.

Have you every given yourself a wallop with a race whip though? I think you might genuinely be surprised how little it hurts. We used to think it was great fun to crack each other round the legs with them at work. They make a brilliant noise :D
 
Keeping a horse alive which is uncomfortable or very old and not keeping condition just because you cannot make a decision about PTS?

How about having a chronically fat horse?

Being overweight and unbalanced on your horse?

Buying a youngster even though you are inexperienced and over horsing yourself with the inevitable consequences?

Having bad hands?

Riding a horse who is 1/10 lame but not recognising it because it keeps on doing the job?

Ultimately we will never get away from cruelty. The above are examples that happen every day. I think there are different levels and some break the law and some do not.
 
Jesstinsel said:
Well, you don't need to wear leather shoes so effectively you're hurting an animal for no good reason.

Nearly ALL humans use animals to suit their own means. It's just a matter of where you draw the line really.

Have you every given yourself a wallop with a race whip though? I think you might genuinely be surprised how little it hurts. We used to think it was great fun to crack each other round the legs with them at work. They make a brilliant noise :D
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I have not, but im sure your right and that they are designed not to hurt too much but im sure you agree its the fear of the whip that scares the horse , much like cracking a lunge whip, its intimidation.

I agree that im many ways we are all hypocrits , I eat meat and wear leather , maybe not leather trouser though but anyway... I still think that singling this woman out as being the antichrist is going to far.
 
I think the distinction with the dealer case is that there is a legal issue with the treatment of the horse. Correct use of the whip in racing is legal, and so is drag hunting. Hence why the two situations can't really be compared. Similarly, misuse of the whip in racing is a punished for, and so is illegally fox hunting... much like this woman will be punished as what she has done is illegal. Its not double standards really at all as both of the examples that you have given are controlled legally.
 
merlinsquest said:
Not commenting about the racing but sorry hunting is indiscriminate, the fox is persued until he/she is exhausted, then if he does go to ground some kindly soul digs him out with a terrier. Hunting people like to think that it weeds out the weak to justify their "sport", & what do you all think "autumn hunting" is? Don't think the young cubs who are just fending for themselves are particularly weak, & if any do break away, the ring of riders waiting around the edge of the covert herd them back in to be killed by the young hounds who are being trained.
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Can I point out studies by Oxford University show that the chase on average only last about 17 minutes before the kill, most foxes are not 'pursued until exhaustion'.
 
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OP, I think you're mixing two issues here in an irrelvant way.

The question is not "which is the more cruel, hunting, racing or what that woman did"....


.... the question is, "was the treatment of that horse cruel?".

Full stop.

.... and you have already answered that in your original post, saying that yes the treatment of that horse was cruel.

So, if you want to have a pop at hunting or racing, go ahead and get in line.

BUT, if you want to use the hunting or racing as means to justify the treatment of that horse..... get a life!!!
 
lloyd said:
I have not, but im sure your right and that they are designed not to hurt too much but im sure you agree its the fear of the whip that scares the horse , much like cracking a lunge whip, its intimidation.

I agree that im many ways we are all hypocrits , I eat meat and wear leather , maybe not leather trouser though but anyway... I still think that singling this woman out as being the antichrist is going to far.
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I certainly agree that if people have said they want to do the same to her kids or physically harm her then that is a step too far. I can't stand people saying things like that.

But she has behaved pretty badly and I don't think it's any bad thing for people to be made aware. At least people won't send their horses there without knowing the score and that can only be a positive. I'd rather people were disgusted by that than just thinking 'o, that's ok because jockeys use a whip too'.
 
hcm88 said:
I think the distinction with the dealer case is that there is a legal issue with the treatment of the horse. Correct use of the whip in racing is legal, and so is drag hunting. Hence why the two situations can't really be compared. Similarly, misuse of the whip in racing is a punished for, and so is illegally fox hunting... much like this woman will be punished as what she has done is illegal. Its not double standards really at all as both of the examples that you have given are controlled legally.
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Can I ask why we deem it acceptable for racing jockeys to be whipping horses at all , surely if they all didnt carry a whip the sport would be just as fair ?

And I agree that there is a legal argument to answer however I do belive that morality out weighs legality when some of our European neighbours Bull fight , thats legal too !
 
lloyd said:
Can I ask why we deem it acceptable for racing jockeys to be whipping horses at all , surely if they all didnt carry a whip the sport would be just as fair ?
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If you've never heard the arguments about why jocks carry whips you should go and read up. There are plenty of threads here, there is plenty of info on the internet too.

There are some pretty legitimate reasons for it, some of which don't even involve touching the horse with the stick!
 
Kelpie said:
OP, I think you're mixing two issues here in an irrelvant way.

The question is not "which is the more cruel, hunting, racing or what that woman did"....


.... the question is, "was the treatment of that horse cruel?".

Full stop.

.... and you have already answered that in your original post, saying that yes the treatment of that horse was cruel.

So, if you want to have a pop at hunting or racing, go ahead and get in line.

BUT, if you want to use the hunting or racing as means to justify the treatment of that horse..... get a life!!!
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Im sorry but perhaps you have miss understood my point , the question was never one is more cruel than the other , it is that I believe its unfair to single out one example of cruelty against a culture of it.

And yeah , if you can tell me where the que is I will join it , I think the racing fratenity is an unjust industry that in many cases treat horses in a similar mannor to disposible razors , a tool to do a job until of no use then discarded.

Im again im sorry if you have inteperated my posts as a mean to justify the treatment of that horse , I would ask you to re read my posts as that is simply not the case.
 
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lloyd said:
Im sorry but perhaps you have miss understood my point , the question was never one is more cruel than the other , it is that I believe its unfair to single out one example of cruelty against a culture of it.
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But your point is too simplistic. That's like saying 'why are you complaining about women being raped in the Uk when there are women being stoned to death in Iraq'. They are completely different issues and it's too simplistic to include them as one.

Tic Toc's treatment was dreadful and it deserves to stand on it's own merits without being judged against different issues. It has it's own disgust as an issue as the people in question were supposed to be trusted as being decent schoolers of horses, and were obviously not.

Each horse cruelty issue has it's own merit. You can't compare across different complex issues.
 
paddi22 said:
But your point is too simplistic. That's like saying 'why are you complaining about women being raped in the Uk when there are women being stoned to death in Iraq'. They are completely different issues and it's too simplistic to include them as one.

Tic Toc's treatment was dreadful and it deserves to stand on it's own merits without being judged against different issues. It has it's own disgust as an issue as the people in question were supposed to be trusted as being decent schoolers of horses, and were obviously not.

Each horse cruelty issue has it's own merit. You can't compare across different complex issues.
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Im sure your right , and I agree that it is all relative. But when I read about people threatening her Kids then im sure any rational person would agree that these things have to be put into perspective and it is with this in mind I highlight other cruelty issues.
 
I think casual cruelty is rampant in the UK equestrian world.
In Denmark we have decided that to whip the horse is abuse - the treatment of Tic Toc would have been illegal. In competitions, riders will get eliminated for anything seen to be intended as 'punishment' for the horse's reactions.

When the Danish Riding Federation suggested to BHS, BSJA and BD that they adopt similar legislation, the British horselovers laughed at the ridiculous suggestion. Go figure.
 
Mondy said:
I think casual cruelty is rampant in the UK equestrian world.
In Denmark we have decided that to whip the horse is abuse - the treatment of Tic Toc would have been illegal. In competitions, riders will get eliminated for anything seen to be intended as 'punishment' for the horse's reactions.

When the Danish Riding Federation suggested to BHS, BSJA and BD that they adopt similar legislation, the British horselovers laughed at the ridiculous suggestion. Go figure.
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I have singled out racing because I have a problem with the sport but I agree that cruelty is rampant in equestrinism at all levels , away from racing heres an example.

In Showjumping all over the world there is wide spread use of "Jumping boots" , tendon boots and hind fetlock boots designed to cause pain and discomfort for performance gains. Imagine if the wide spread media took more interest in this , would we expect our Showjumping heros getting threats against there kids ? Mean while riders are getting caught "messing" with there horses legs with needles and chilly powder , they get a rap on the wrist and put forward for the next international selection , and yet these are the guys we look up to.

Up until recently in dressage had some cruel connections with cut mouths , bleeding sides - rollkur etc were comon practice.

As I have said , something is very wrong when we single out one un exceptable example to the extent we have seen while all around us cruelty is rampant.

my point is not and never has been that the treatment of said horse was correct but that the reaction is outragous when "cruelty" is going on round about us all the time without any backlash whatsoever. I am sure no one has left the president of the FEI a message on facebook saying they hope his children go blind and deaf.
 
lloyd, you don't have many posts to your name so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt...

There have been some ferocious debates about rolkur and use of the stick on this forum. You may not have seen them but that does not mean they didn't happen.

No one is singling this woman out and accepting cruelty elsewhere. I'd say that most people on this forum are disgusted by cruelty in any area of the horse world and are quite vociferous about it too...
 
Right I'm gonna take at punt at this but will mess it up terribly. I do understand what the OP is getting at with her opinions. OP I suggest you look for a thread I started with "fluffy bunnies" in the title. Because I spent much of my life in racing. Probably won't give you what you're looking for but who knows.

As far as the whip goes on Tic Toc, well that horse had absolutely no idea why he was being hit. None what so ever. You're using the word fear for every time a whip is used. If we saw a video of Tic Toc in which he bucked once, was reprimanded appropriately as in one well timed smack, and then let the horse carry on to get on what was being asked of him, I doubt many would have had issues with his treatment. But it was over and over. The rider was not even asking the horse for anything specific. When Tic Toc bucked he was hit, when he tried to get on with it he was also hit. So now you have a horse that absolutely has no idea what the rider wanted. No matter what he does he is walloped. And if you heard the slicing through the air of that whip you will know it was not a race safe whip. Trust me on that one.

Now to racing. If you went to beating on one like this, you'd probably get a similar reaction in that the horse has no idea what you want. Therefore is probably not going to be running in a straight line and or could just dump you in the middle of a race. You don't practice hitting during a horse during normal routine trainings. As for uses of the whip in racing you may not know of, steering is one. Remember you have virtually no leg use to guide a horse. Going very fast if a horse goes to shy or veer of course, possibly into other horses, a simple rein correction may not be enough. Heck even a big rein correction. So they can be used for safety as well. Even for non hitting. A flick by their eye view gets them back in.

It's very hard to have a broad stroke of saying all beating is bad and yet in some instances we deem it ok. You really need to look a bit further than just the fact that Tic Toc was beat. It was that he was never given a chance to do the right thing. He was hit over and over no matter what he did. That's the problem. This is where the cruelty is coming into play. Now and again a well timed smack goes a very long way. But it's one smack. It's not repeatedly. But this is where skill and experience come in. You need to be able to make those decisions in a split second and know for just what situation and how to execute correctly. And most importantly that the horse has learned.

I know as I'm writing this someone will think there is never an occasion to hit one. And in 99% of cases you'd be right. But now and again it serves a purpose. And a heck of a lot better than continually tapping one daily with a whip or spurs. And then complaining you have a dead sided horse with no go. I'm sure some of those riders have landed in a heap as well when getting on a horse that says, yeah, I don't think so.

And lastly, I start horses for people. So when I watch videos like this and even the ones from Europe of the fancy warmbloods, I'm highly annoyed. In all those instances the horses have no idea what's being asked of them. I know there is a much better way for horses to learn in which those reactions never need to happen. Now that to me is a double standard. The euro videos were floating around and everyone was like ohh ahhh, look at that rider, he's amazing. Nope, not whipped, but actually the horses still had no idea what was being asked of them. And yes they were frightened even without a whip and yet that was totally lost on most people who commented. So really if you want to compare likes that was probably a better way to go.

Terri
 
Well said Terri -

as an aside, I didn't know you use the whip as a way of steering, you learn something new every day!

Earlier in the thread someone used the kennel club as an example of a club that wouldn't allow mis treatment of dogs - just wanted to say that they have their problems too and some of those are massive, grained in problems - they are trying to sort them now, but its taken many years.

mmm, I carry a whip (on my whip shy horse) when jumping - he doesn't bother that I am carrying it (if I carried it while doing flatwork he would flip) and I have used it a few times - mostly on cross country as a back up to my leg - say, coming to a ditch and the horse is backing off, I see a good stride but he has backed off my leg - I have used the stick to remind him that I am there and need him to listen. It has worked as a reinforcement even though my horse is whip shy he didn't flip out, he just responded to me and jumped fine. After the jump I usually give him a pat to let him know he did good. What i'm trying to say is that there is occasions when you need to use a stick (and I have a pro cush whip).
 
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