Draw reins - God has spoken. ;) ;) ;)

cptrayes said:
Well that's the thing. Everyone on here is stuck in the mindset of using them to pull a horse's head down and in. If you think of them instead as a variable martingale to stop it putting its head UP then you can see how useful they would be. Personally I hate martingales. A running martingale is the quickest way to turn a resistant horse's neck upside down that there is. A standing martingale cannot be released quickly if you need to. Draw reins suffer neither of these problems.

Rearing? Well, there are two main types of rearer. One does it as an evasion from going forwards. The other does is when it is wanting to go forward faster than its rider requires. The second type very often start their rear by chucking their head upwards. You can prevent this with the martingale effect of draw reins and then release them as a reward when the horse decides not to rear after all.

To use draw reins you need to be able to use two reins indepently, have hands completely independent of your seat and reactions fast enough to release them if they are going to cause a problem and bring them into use when they are going to solve one.

Spawn of the devil. No. Useful short term tool. Yes. Some guy someone else calls "God" says only lazy people use them? More fool him. Half the top class dressage trainers in the world are laughing at him as we discuss this.
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Thank you cptrayes. So are you saying that you'd bring the draw reins into action only at the start of them chucking their heads up in anticipation of rearing (i.e. so how some people would see a martingale as being useful), rather than actually be "riding" in them all the time, so to speak, or using it when they're actually rearing? Otherwise I'm not quite clear on how you'd use them in a way other than to bring the horse's head down and in? .... just trying to understand is all, promise still not picking a fight :) ... and agree with you about not finding martingales particularly useful either, fwiw.

(of course there's a whole other discussion there about finding out why the horse is rearing rather than just stopping the sympton, but I'm sure you're familiar with those discussions too and lets for argument's sake assume the horse is rearing for no other reason than some prior idiot rider letting it become a bad habbit....)
 
cptrayes said:
Half the top class dressage trainers in the world are laughing at him as we discuss this.
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And how many dressage horses are competing into their mid teens (without the use of joint injections et al), most competition horses are buggered by the time they should be coming into their prime due to bad training. The only reason they are laughing is because they charge a lot of money to impart their "top class" wisdom on the equestrian world!
 
Allover said:
Maybe a good lesson to learn would be patience and good horsemanship?
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Rubbish. Safety first at all times. And as you didn't bother to read the whole thread through you will see that I have very clearly stated when I would choose to use draw reins. Please have the courtesey to read the responses before you put your tuppence worth in.
 
I hate draw reins, I never have seen a place for them and will never use them. I can't say one good word about them or market harboroughs or anything else gadgety for that matter!

Good training is good training. You can sort any problems out through training and patience, not by gadgets!

(maybe I am too old and stuck in my ways. But the old ways are sometimes the best ways!)
 
Luci07 said:
Rubbish. Safety first at all times. And as you didn't bother to read the whole thread through you will see that I have very clearly stated when I would choose to use draw reins. Please have the courtesey to read the responses before you put your tuppence worth in.
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I have read the whole thread, i have not personally attacked you for using draw reins as i dont know how you ride, you may well be in the tiny minority of people that can use this gadget correctly.

I will add my tuppence worth at any time i see fit after all it is a public forum. Maybe i should PM you any responses i would like to add to any particular thread for your approval.
 
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If you had read the whole thread then you "should" have understood the point I was making. If you choose to criticise then expect a response. Your post indicated you had not read the previous post or understood the point I was making. I do not expect you to "seek approval" or silliness about pm's. I expect a reasoned response based on what I had posted, not a half cocked answer!
 
And your response was reasonable was it?

And to respond to your post regarding when you would use draw reins, i have never had to use draw reins to stop a spinner and the thought would not enter my mind to use them for this particular evasion.
 
cptrayes said:
Some guy someone else calls "God" says only lazy people use them? More fool him. Half the top class dressage trainers in the world are laughing at him as we discuss this.
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My use of the word "God" in reference to Klaus Balkenhol in my OP was tongue in cheek, by the way...

Do you really truly think half of the top class dressage trainers in the world are laughing at a trainer who is regarded as one of the best? (that has nothing to do with my opinion, my epithet, etc, it's a serious question.)
 
i completely agree with Luci07!
depends on the horse, and can make them realise they can go in an outline, then you don't need them after :D
 
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following the part of the convention where Klaus said this about draw reins the rider stated that the only reason that she used them was due to the fact her horse was VERY sharp and difficult to ride. It was then lunch.
After the lunch break Klaus made a point of stating that in this case (and for others using them on horses that were very sharp) it was perfectly acceptable to use them and that there was , after all, a place for them in the tack room.
Not sure if anyone commenting on this was at the convention but the horse was def not the easiest of rides.
 
Thanks for that charlie76, very interesting. As many of us have said, if they're necessary from a safety point of view for a limited amount of time on certain horses, so be it. Huge difference between that and using them to train a horse to go in an outline (because the rider can't get the horse working that way without a leverage gadget, presumably?)
 
So more or less back to the "farm boy" thing again. ;)

Although that also carries the connotation that if you're not fit/able/skilled enough/young enough to be riding "bad" horses without gadgets, you shouldn't be on them in the first place . . . :D

*Having stirred the pot, TarrSteps wanders off, whistling, to the clarion call of a G&T . . .*
 
Allover said:
Or maybe there are too many peolpe out there who think they have the "right hands"?!
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I'm terribly sorry for you but there is nothing I can do if you don't think you have the skill to use draw reins and I know that I do, is there?
 
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kerilli said:
Do you really truly think half of the top class dressage trainers in the world are laughing at a trainer who is regarded as one of the best? (that has nothing to do with my opinion, my epithet, etc, it's a serious question.)
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Now that someone has explained ALL of what he said, that there is a time and a place for them with a difficult horse. No. He talks sense.

The nonsense was a selective quote, referring, jokingly or otherwise to him as a supreme spokesman, and all the other people who then waded in saying that he was exactly right, draw reins should never be used, when that was not what he said at all.
 
Kelpie said:
(of course there's a whole other discussion there about finding out why the horse is rearing rather than just stopping the sympton, but I'm sure you're familiar with those discussions too and lets for argument's sake assume the horse is rearing for no other reason than some prior idiot rider letting it become a bad habbit....)
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Well that kind of assumes that all horses are born angels wanting to behave themselves and some trainer spoils their intention to behave perfectly doesn't it? I'm afraid that is a long, long way from the truth as anyone who has started horses from scratch will tell you. There are many horses who will rear rather than agree to stop before they reach the front of any ride in company. Some will do it if you attempt, however gently, to slow them down on the way back home from a hack, such is their eagerness to get back to familiar territory ( I do wonder if i am now going to be told by some bunny hugger that you shouldn't hack out a horse who doesn't like leaving home!) Like humans, some are more feisty than others and they don't need a trainer to teach them to behave like maniacs.

For some horses, in the right hands, draw reins are a good short term solution, just as Klaus Balklenhol, we now know, indicated.

What a load of fuss about nothing this thread has been, when the original quote was incomplete and gave a false impression of what the man said :(
 
cptrayes said:
For some horses, in the right hands, draw reins are a good short term solution, just as Klaus Balklenhol, we now know, indicated.

What a load of fuss about nothing this thread has been, when the original quote was incomplete and gave a false impression of what the man said :(
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Hear hear.

But it wouldn't be HHO if we didn't have all the arguing, backtracking and (as Baydale put it) Forum Land comments would it? ;):p:rolleyes:

I think everyone's bored with not being able to ride in the snowy weather :D
 
cptrayes said:
I'm terribly sorry for you but there is nothing I can do if you don't think you have the skill to use draw reins and I know that I do, is there?
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No need to feel sorry for me, i know what i am and what i am capable of, i am happy with my capabilities and know that they will continue to be improved upon.

If you care to read through my posts on this thread i think you will see that i have indicated that there can be a place for draw reins but that IMO the vast majority of people use them without the skill or knowledge required to use them correctly or alternatively use them to "quick fix" an issue that should be dealt with by "going back to basics" to find the cause of what the draw reins are dealing with the symptoms of.
 
meardsall_millie said:
Hear hear.

But it wouldn't be HHO if we didn't have all the arguing, backtracking and (as Baydale put it) Forum Land comments would it? ;):p:rolleyes:

I think everyone's bored with not being able to ride in the snowy weather :D
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I've been out (get me:rolleyes:), have I missed anything - other than TarrSteps talking sense whilst simultaneously pursuing gin? ;) :D
 
cptrayes said:
I love it when people who ride the most immensely capable horses in the world tell the rest of us how to train the common or garden ones who aren't born with uphill, elevated paces.

I don't put draw reins on my KWPN because he is naturally round. Anyone who can afford horse with that talented self carriage has no need of draw reins. But I would love to see this man reschool a failed racer who thinks that shorter reins mean" lean and go faster". Or a stuffy necked and obstinate maxi-cob. Or a persistant rearer.

By far the quickest, kindest and safest way to train a failed racer,for example to stop racing and canter rounded instead of upside down is with draw reins. All things have their place. Only last week I saw my friend have a lesson with one of the world's leading trainers (fee £90 a lesson for a block booking) and her mare was in draw reins. He sold her the horse too, and it cost a fortune and is very talented but he felt there was a need for them at that time.

It's the rider that is good or bad, not the tools. So if you feel you need to use draw reins, you are in good company, stop beating yourself up :)
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I disagree with you entirely! And please note, I'm not commenting on the Mark Todds of this world. How can it possibly be the quickest, kindest and safest way to retrain an ex racer using draw reins? How about having the time, patience and ability to reschool your horse correctly so that he learns how to carry himself as a riding horse as opposed to a racehorse. Racehorses do not have the correct muscles to carry themselves in an outline, this has to be developed over a period of time as it would with a young horse being brought on. If you are looking for a quick fix and for your horse to be going in a 'pretty' outline, then sadly draw reins may be your solution.
'good company'? Don't think so, not in this instance.
 
kirstyl said:
Racehorses do not have the correct muscles to carry themselves in an outline, this has to be developed over a period of time as it would with a young horse being brought on.
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I agree with this - my instructor says that a good way to potentially ruin a horse is to force it into a position it is not yet built for. It would kind of be like forcing someone into the splits each day although they aren't yet ready to do so - the correct muscles must be built up.

Having said that, I sometimes use them loosely when schooling as I try to get him to settle (not when warming up as I have to ride for 20 mins or so to get to the schooling place) to stop him shoving his ears up my nose and having short gallopy bursts - something he does occasionally when he's excited and its cold etc. Once he's settled, I loosen them so they aren't doing anything, then work him in properly - as a safety/control measure I think they're fine, but not to achieve an "outline". Then again, so many top riders (particularly SJers judging by what goes on in collecting rings) use them, so they have their place, but I think that at my riding level, I'd best steer clear and learn to work the horse properly, but I think that all gadgets have different uses for different horses and riders.
 
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I rode in draw reins extensively in the 90' for over 5 years on variety of horses on a top show jumping yard. They were pretty much a standard part of your bridle!
We never warmed up in them - they were often knotted or just kept very loose as we were told the muscles must be warm before the draw reins can be shortened.
They were then used held under the snaffle rein and came into action if horses wanted to lift their heads up.
One thing that was drilled in us was that the horses have to be in front of the leg, in a powerful canter. It almost fell like pushing the horses head out and away from you.
We also used them to teach horses to stretch down whilst keeping consistent rhythm in canter (the almost four beat canter, very slow but very powerful). As to how - we were told to squeeze the inside rein + draw rein whilst holding the outside combo passive/on contact. When pressure was applied on the inside rein horse generally wants to turn the head in that direction, then we would stop that will of turning by keeping the outside rein(s) firm. This was done a couple of times then all reins moved forwards (a bit like a crest release) and all horses without fail always wanted to drop the neck and stretch down. They were then rewarded for that.
Most of the horses I rode at the time were warmblood stallions.
Draw reins were basically used for control, submission, schooling, re-schooling and staying alive. We were severely shouted at and told to get off if the draw reins were tight for any length of time. There had to be a visible slack in them.
We also show-jumped in them a lot, personally to 1.30m but saw them being used all the way to GP.

Ten years later, I no longer ride in draw reins because I like the correct schooling process and everything that comes with it. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on a very sharp horse, one that tests the boundries or when I ride a horse that I know is too much for me (in the last case scenario that would be with my trainer who I trust to kick me out of the saddle if I do anything wrong).

From my experience with draw reins it is very very easy to over use them and I agree with some posts above that basically there are more horses spoilt by draw reins than helped by them.
Many horses learn very quickly where the draw rein is and will hold the unnatural position of the neck in anticipation of the lever like draw rein action. Many horses worked in them have muscular problems despite seemingly good performance.

Another detail - I was taught their action is be a bit like side-reins, they should just be there at a fairly fixed length but lose enough to give the horse some freedom of movement in front-on-behind vertical, and obvioulsy safer than side-reins as can be released completaly if needed. I have personally never thought of them being used as a sort of a martingale.
 
cptrayes said:
What a load of fuss about nothing this thread has been, when the original quote was incomplete and gave a false impression of what the man said :(
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Thanks for that - it was a verbatim quote from Horse and Hound's article on the Convention. I wasn't there, so could only quote what was written. I did not give a false impression at all. The additional comment on this thread from someone who was there was appreciated, obviously, but there was no way I could have known that he answered a further question about them, if it wasn't mentioned in the article.
Fwiw H&H goes on:
'Klaus explained that horses schooled in this way (with draw reins) would become too "up in the neck" and have problems with their backs:
"If the horse is ridden in draw reins too much, the collection is not correct and the horse cannot stretch his neck as he needs to.
"Meanwhile, riders feel as though their horses are in self-carriage when they're not. You should ride instead with good hands and an elastic contact, so the horse learns to accept your hand and learns true self-carriage."'

Nothing positive about them there either.

some very good points made there by kirstyl, viola and showjumpergirl.
I wonder how many riders who use them, wait until the horse's muscles are warmed up before bringing the draw reins into action...
 
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I think the key words are 'used too much'.

I believe, that as with almost all equipment, they have their time and place. I used them many years ago, but do not believe that I am good enough these days to make them effective in the way they were designed to be used (or that which has become the acceptable way to use them). My instructor has put them on Dizzy, to encourage the feel of the carriage we're aiming for, but before they came into play, the horse started to hold herself. No doubt on her part due to growing up and maturing and finding her own carriage. I would have been happy for my instructor to make further use of them if she felt they were needed though.

Note: it's the first time in two years that I have seen my instructor bring out the draw reins or even mention them. We have been through just about every other route with the Dizzy one.
 
kirstyl said:
I disagree with you entirely! And please note, I'm not commenting on the Mark Todds of this world. How can it possibly be the quickest, kindest and safest way to retrain an ex racer using draw reins? How about having the time, patience and ability to reschool your horse correctly so that he learns how to carry himself as a riding horse as opposed to a racehorse. Racehorses do not have the correct muscles to carry themselves in an outline, this has to be developed over a period of time as it would with a young horse being brought on. If you are looking for a quick fix and for your horse to be going in a 'pretty' outline, then sadly draw reins may be your solution.
'good company'? Don't think so, not in this instance.
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Oh I'm so with you on this, Kirsty. Also, it seems that some people are talking about sole use of draw-reins, not using as an auxillary but the only rein-sounds relentless.

Having said that, I admit to using use draw reins with a young stallion very briefly - he'd been shown in hand, had a very over developed underside of his neck and so very stiff along his back. Initially, I lunged him for short sessions with a loose Chambon, to try and exercise these muscles. I discovered when i rode him, and he got really excited i.e. if the hunt was around or a tasty mare appeared he wouldnt listend to me he was so focused elsewhere - ok, but the main problem was his head would go up so high too. After a couple of dodgy outings, I put on draw reins along with the snaffle rein, knotted on the neck and when 'excitement' loomed and he lost the plot, I found I could re-gain his attention by also using the DR. He was no fool, once he realised he could still leer and shout, but with his head and neck where I was happier he complied. It didnt take many sessions either.

He went on to hunt, and compete with far more competent riders than me; they all had strong legs and seats and seem to keep him fairly light in the hand.
 
Just my personal experience but I was asked by an instructor to use draw reins years ago when I had absolutely no clue how to ride and thought that pulling the head in made a nice outline - she was a DR instructor (nowadays I still have no clue how to ride, but I am more aware of my ignorance so don't use draw reins as I can't!!). Interestingly I joined a group lesson in France and two other pupils used draw reins on horses that were barely shuffling along in terms of impulsion. This was quite surprising as everything the instructor had said to me previously in private lessons had been 100% compatible with classical training.

To my mind, whatever one thinks of draw reins, allowing novices to use them helps neither the horse nor the rider.
 
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