Draw reins

emmarachaelp said:
she's not in the Waterford because she doesn't go in an outline, she's in a Waterford because she used to lean, run away with me and chuck her head up and down constantly if I asked anything of her. we tried to work through it for a few lessons but it was difficult to do anything which is why we changed bits
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So, if the above is the real problem, it is obvious that your mare is not happy in her mouth. Going with a harsher bit is not the answer. On the contrary, I would try her in a range of mild bits. The behaviour you describe is a result of discomfort and pain. Some horses don't like lozenge bits, some don't like a link at all. Sometimes a bit may simply be too thick in the mouth. Any bit which measures more than 16mm at its thickest point is too thick for the horse to close its jaw. Some horses don't like flashes. You have to just keep trying. But a Waterford is not for schooling in.
 
Speedyfluff:
I said that she doesn't go in an outline yet because I was talking about draw reins. The bit had nothing to do with it, the bit was changed so that she couldn't lean , so that schooling her wasn't a case of fighting her.
 
emmarachaelp said:
she's not in the Waterford because she doesn't go in an outline, she's in a Waterford because she used to lean, run away with me and chuck her head up and down constantly if I asked anything of her. we tried to work through it for a few lessons but it was difficult to do anything which is why we changed bits
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Your horse is still a baby and changing bits to something as harsh as a Waterford because you and your instructor couldn't work through her throwing her head around with just a few sessions is shocking, my ex racer did this for about the first 4 months of having her, we never changed her from a snaffle there was no reason to we just persevered with getting her to accept my leg and keeping everything soft and quiet in front. She went to medium dressage without ever using any gadgets. Please understand there are no shortcuts to training a horse properly and instructors who think babies should have Waterfords and pessoas and God knows what other gadgets used on them really shouldn't be training them.
 
Oh and if you can't understand how a horse can be working properly with their heads low then read reiner klimkes book on training young horses, you will see pictures of him schooling young horses with their noses practically on the ground while he gets them long and loose to slowly pick them up into the right frame from his leg and seat.
 
I'm not the first person to have used a Waterford or Pessoa on a horse. Everybody has different opinions on using different bits, but it's not as if I'm sawing her mouth with it and I have soft hands so I'm not pulling on her mouth either.
 
fankino04 said:
Oh and if you can't understand how a horse can be working properly with their heads low then read reiner klimkes book on training young horses, you will see pictures of him schooling young horses with their noses practically on the ground while he gets them long and loose to slowly pick them up into the right frame from his leg and seat.
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^^^^ This!!

Your horse leans & throws her head because her back is too weak to self carry yet.

Leave the gadgets & harsh bits in the tack room and give some of the advice on here a try for 6 months, you never know you might just find the key to improving your horse and your riding (& we all need to do that, no one knows it all....)
 
fankino04 said:
Please understand there are no shortcuts to training a horse properly and instructors who think babies should have Waterfords and pessoas and God knows what other gadgets used on them really shouldn't be training them.
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Short cuts make for long delays.

And as for instructors advocating waterfords of all things for a young horse clearly unhappy in her mouth... I despair. No wonder so many horses are so incorrect if people like that are starting them...
 
I agree with others ditch the Waterford. I schooled my last horse in one to stop leaning, but she was a strong moose and it was only for a short time and maybe once a week, then we went back to a lozenge.
If she is really chucking her head up or sticking it up and running then a loose standing martingale might help. I prefer standing on young horses as it doesn't interfere with the rein contact.
I am not in the draw reins are the root of all evil camp and have used them for certain problems with success. I have also hacked many tricky horses in them.
1) Wrong is to use them to "force" an outline
2) They can cause a horse to be tight in the frame and almost curled. They can make leaning worse! Some horses will start to tilt their heads rather than bend through the neck.
3) Yes and knowledge or a knowledgeable set of eyes on the ground
4) You don't have to use them for a full session
5) Can be used with a variety of bits including a Waterford, but I wouldn't recommend.

My tips for leaning are:
Don't pull back - I know how hard this is trust me!
If she starts leaning try putting her on quite a small circle (we used to call it the naughty circle) until she relaxes
Keep her neck soft so lots of bending (both true and counter) so she doesn't set against you. Start this in walk as she may find it hard. Just ask for a couple of strides with more bend and then release.
Lateral work - LY and Quarters in are my starting points make sure she is really listening and focusing on you.
Keep sessions short a tired horse is much more likely to lean, also have lots of breaks and allow her to stretch down with no contact, but still walking on.

Trotting poles are a great way to help build muscle and encourage the horse to drop their head.
Transitions will get her working from behind
 
emmarachaelp said:
I'm not the first person to have used a Waterford or Pessoa on a horse.
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Very true.
You also wouldn't be the first person to not progress beyond a prelim test with a 60% score either
For a horse to work correctly it must have the muscles to support that way of going. Training a horse is all about doing things that encourage the correct muscles to develop. Muscles take time to develop and therefore it should be understood that developing the outline will also take time.
The outline comes from the horse taking more weight than it naturally would on it's back legs. This happens because we a) ask them to step further under with the hind legs and b) they can lift the frame with back muscles. The neck muscles develop to support this new way of going, not to achieve it.
So starting from scratch we first have to get the horse stepping further under with the hind legs so we have to push it on. If all we did was push it on then it would just get faster and faster. The hand is used to contain (in conjunction with riders core) this extra power but initially the muscle isn't there to lift the frame so the power created tends to go in a downward direction. Net result is horse will feel heavier in the hand than we would ideally want. No what often happens is the rider reacts to this heavier feeling and throws the contact away or backs the power off or sticks in a stronger bit to make the horse feel lighter. None of these actions will allow the horse to work in a way that develops the correct muscles. If it is accepted that in the early stages of training the contact will not be as light as the mythical piece of cotton and exercises are carried out to help the horse to develop it's muscles along with balance and flexibility then things will gradually improve. As the muscle develops the front end of the horse will lift and the contact will become lighter. The horse starts to come in to self carriage.
All this takes time, a good feel from the rider knowing when to push, when to sit quiet and most importantly when to end a session. It needs the rider to be able to stay in balance when the horses looses theirs which they will a lot. Every time a rider askes for more of anything the horse has to relearn how to balance with the increase.
The other issues often causing lack on true self carriage are the rider not understanding what a true contact is along with not having the ability to have weight in the rein and still maintain and elastic contact. Not understanding that softening a contact involves little more than giving a 3mm increase in rein, most abandon a contact rather than soften it. Not understanding that for a horse to work in to a contact that the contact must first of all be consistent from the rider. The biggest issue bar far though is lack of understanding about how long it takes for all this to happen.
My final thought on this is that people often think they have a good instructor simply because they haven't yet had a good instructor. It's very difficult to access an instructor until the rider has considerable experience.
 
I am going to counter everyone and say stick her in a 3 ring gag with reins and draw reins on the bottom ring. Put a very tight crank noseband on with an even tighter flash strap. Oh and add in a standing martingale just for good measure!

Et voila! You have a horse that "goes in an outline" and "is very light on the hands".
 
EKW said:
I am going to counter everyone and say stick her in a 3 ring gag with reins and draw reins on the bottom ring. Put a very tight crank noseband on with an even tighter flash strap. Oh and add in a standing martingale just for good measure!

Et voila! You have a horse that "goes in an outline" and "is very light on the hands".
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50% of the horse riding population can't be wrong ;)
 
PaddyMonty said:
50% of the horse riding population can't be wrong ;)
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True dat!

I also forgot to add in the fact that you shouldn't take into account that she is a mare. Treat her just like a gelding, when she is in season tell her to man up and deal with it and make her work even harder. Cos you know! That's what we women do!
 
Thank you muddy_grey and PaddyMonty!! :)

she has a running martingale on atm and the head tossing has stopped.

I'm going to put her in a snaffle today and see how she goes.
 
EKW said:
True dat!

I also forgot to add in the fact that you shouldn't take into account that she is a mare. Treat her just like a gelding, when she is in season tell her to man up and deal with it and make her work even harder. Cos you know! That's what we women do!
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luckily she isn't mariesh at all, even in season :)
 
I would also add some decent spurs and a sparkly brow band that will definatley help!

Please try a new instructor or you can potentially damage your baby beyond repair in a very short space of time.
 
lawa said:
I would also add some decent spurs and a sparkly brow band that will definatley help!

Please try a new instructor or you can potentially damage your baby beyond repair in a very short space of time.
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And one of those ear cover thingies! And lots of fluff! On boots, numnahs, cheek pieces - anywhere you can put a dead sheep put it there!
 
lawa said:
I would also add some decent spurs and a sparkly brow band that will definatley help!
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EKW said:
And one of those ear cover thingies! And lots of fluff! On boots, numnahs, cheek pieces - anywhere you can put a dead sheep put it there!
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Now you two are just showing your ignorance. Any decent dressage rider knows the items you mention should only be used when attempting advanced outlines, not novice young horse ones.
 
And With a daft clip to make your horse like a zebra, giraffe ect.

On reflection I think spurs with blingy spur straps will work better in this case.
 
Just ignore the snide comments and laugh at the funny ones! IMHE just because someone produces young horses for sale, doesn't mean they are doing everything "correctly" In fact, many will take every short cut known to man as it's very difficult to make money as every extra week the horse is on the yard, eats into profit. As a very late starter to riding, when i bought my first horse I didn't know anything really and was very impressed by anything that went in "an outline" Years later I am starting to understand a bit more about the whole business and have been fortunate to have met some excellent trainers who don't do short cuts but I've met some who do. From what you've said in your posts so far, I think you probably should find a new trainer.
 
oldie48 said:
IMHE just because someone produces young horses for sale, doesn't mean they are doing everything "correctly" In fact, many will take every short cut known to man as it's very difficult to make money as every extra week the horse is on the yard, eats into profit.
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I understand what you mean but she isn't a dealer, she keeps them for a long time before she sells them and she doesn't have ten horses at once. She doesn't just break them, school them for two weeks, then sell them.
 
Look she isnt giving you the best advice for the long term for you and your horse. Thats is the in and out of it. You may think she is a good instructor / trainer but what do you have to compare it to?
 
I still think you should just hack out and get this mare stronger before you even think about schooling. She's clearly unfit, unbalanced and it's not fair to ask a horse to go in an outline when they haven't got the ability and strength to do it.

I echo all others who say it comes from what you invest in behind the saddle, not whats in front.
 
tallyho! said:
I still think you should just hack out and get this mare stronger before you even think about schooling. She's clearly unfit, unbalanced and it's not fair to ask a horse to go in an outline when they haven't got the ability and strength to do it.

I echo all others who say it comes from what you invest in behind the saddle, not whats in front.
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Echo this ^^^^
 
UPDATE

I'm on my phone so it's a pain to quote everyting I want to reply to but:

She was unfit when I got her and used to be exhausted after 15 minutes but her fitness is so much better now.

I just rode her in a snaffle and took the martingale off (because the loop that goes around the girth doesn't fit on my dressage one) and she didn't lean, throw her head around and she was so so calm (she's usually speedy at the beginning). She felt lovely.

Thank you everyone for your advice. I am definitely not going to use draw reins after everything you've all said as she will get there eventually! The right way!😈
 
emmarachaelp said:
UPDATE

I'm on my phone so it's a pain to quote everyting I want to reply to but:

She was unfit when I got her and used to be exhausted after 15 minutes but her fitness is so much better now.

I just rode her in a snaffle and took the martingale off (because the loop that goes around the girth doesn't fit on my dressage one) and she didn't lean, throw her head around and she was so so calm (she's usually speedy at the beginning). She felt lovely.

Thank you everyone for your advice. I am definitely not going to use draw reins after everything you've all said as she will get there eventually! The right way!��
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Eventually (slowly)... the right way... is definitely the best way ;)

Calm, forward, straight for a young horse is all you can ask for :)
 
Good luck with her. End of the day if you have a question its better to ask rather than come in a month and say "I would have asked but I was too afraid of the comments now my horse is ruined"
 
I really like the Jeffries Harmony bit, gives a bit of 'lift' to the horses forehand and is a good sitting bit in the mouth! I also think hill work is a great one for strengthening the youngsters to carry themselves :).
 
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