Dreading taking shoes off argument with vet!!

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Christmas Crumpet

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Have just booked horse in to have her front feet x-rayed for the farrier to see before we take shoes off so he can see exactly what we are dealing with inside the foot as well as outside.

Farrier agreed with me that taking shoes off was the way forwards. Shoes are coming off a little bit earlier than originally agreed i.e. 3 weeks time.

Diet been changed for 3 weeks so far - purabeet, hi fi molasses free, micronised linseed and pro hoof (good start!).

She has collapsed heels and reverse rotated pedal bones in both fronts.

Horse owes me nothing at all - she's been an amazing, superstar of a horse and so now its up to me to try and get her right and we've got the time to do it.

Anyway am dreading seeing vet who will probably say she needs remedial shoeing etc and I'll take her shoes off and she will be worse before she gets better etc and he'll say I told you so and it will feel like a total struggle all the way because I will be determined to see it through!! We have tried remedial shoeing which I think helped in the short term but won't mend things in the long term. She doesn't need to be 100% sound immediately because she doesn't need to be in full work until November this year (8 - 9 months time). I've got the spring and summer to do her barefoot rehab and I am hoping that length of time should be enough for her feet to improve.

I am so determined to take her shoes off because shoeing her has made the situation worse and I want to do the best by her.

Sorry for rant - I am just feeling unprepared for the intellectual struggle with the professional that is likely to occur!!

Did anyone else have a struggle with their vet/farrier prior to taking shoes off?
 
Well you've got your farrier onside which is a great start! :)

My mare was prescribed heartbar shoes and I decided after seeing the shoes make her feet almost deformed looking to go without. I just whipped them off and never told my vet, he came to see her for something unrelated a few months later and was impressed and commented on how good her feet were (totally sound and working well at this point.) I believe he now works alongside bf trimmers as well as farriers. If you vet is completely anti then you've got to remember that it is your horse and you are paying for his services, not the other way around.
You might be pleasantly surprised, I would go in not expecting confrontation, but state that with your farriers approval you want to try barefoot; boots and pads can help to balance a foot if necessary and shoes are always there if needed, although hopefully they won't be. Good luck!
 
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My horse had reverse rotation of his pedal bones. I'm sorry to say that taking his shoes off did nothing for him apart from make him far more uncomfortable.

Remedial shod, with bar shoes and pads - with the farrier working with the x-rays (and importantly vet and farrier working together) horse came sound (well for a year anyway).
 
In my experience if you have the farrier on side then the Vet is usually happy to go with their recommendation.

When I took my horses shoes off due to lameness probs the Vet and farrier were both against it but I have kept them both informed of her progress and they are interested now in following what happens. So I think if we want vets etc to consider barefoot rehabs more often then we have to keep them informed of the journey and progress not cut them out of it as we feel we had to go against them so hopefully they will gradually come round to the idea.


You sound like you have done a lot of research so I am sure it will all be fine!
 
Yes I can get farrier to meeting so that is ok.

Amymay - we aren't just dealing with reverse rotated pedal bones. Her heels are incredibly collapsed as well. She has had remedial farriery which I don't actually think was beneficial to her in the long term. Certainly her heels look even worse now than they did before she had the heart bars on.

She is 17 this year and I want to get her field sound at the very least. Her feet have not been growing at all shod so I think its time for a totally different approach. As I said before, she owes me nothing at all so there is no great panic to get her 100% sound in the short term as we have time to try and get her feet growing the right way again and I honestly do not believe that keeping her shod is going to help matters.
 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=11143532#post11143532

Have attached a post with pics of her remedial shoes on to show her collapsed heels etc. Have got better (or should I say far worse) ones without shoes on but they are on PC at home.

I will take regular photos showing progress (or not!!) once shoes are off.

Amymay - thanks for that. Fingers crossed and all that!!
 
good luck :)

My only comment would be to keep an eye on the Hi Fi molasses free - the alfalfa in it can make some horses footy - if you have a look on the Phoenix Barefoot Forum you'll see a lot of people have found this. It certainly seems to make my TB footy
 
Clava said:
If you want to work with the vet then I'd get a vet who is a bit more enlightened to the options.
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I don't really want to work with the vet - just want him to take the x rays!!
Want to work with farrier who knows far more about feet and how to improve things in the long term, not a quick fix.

A quick fix isn't needed here because I'm in no rush at all.
 
The two senior vets at the old practice were very anti anything except remedial shoeing by their own farrier, and one of them has been downright rude about removing shoes. As others have said, it's your horse. Don't be bullied into anything you're not happy about, and since you've spent a lot of time researching and getting diet and management right I think you are doing the right thing. There is a growing body of evidence now that remedial shoeing isn't always the best option, certainly not if you're looking to a permanent solution.

I am particularly anti-opinionated vets at the moment due to the complete mess one of the aforementioned vets made of a euthanasia. I know if I had stuck to my guns and argued with him it would never have happened. So do what's right for you, and most importantly, your horse! If they get shirty about x rays, just change vet.
 
I had a horse with similar problems. My vet suggested remedial shoeing, and I tactfully explained why that wasn't going to happen ;). Vet said fair enough. Hopefully your vet will be as reasonable!

Fast forward 9 months-ish and pedal bones are now in correct alignment, and the horse is sound. There's still work to be done due to various set backs, but this is a permanent solution, not a stop gap like remedial shoeing would have been :).
 
CB send him my way ;) (same diagnosis, similar age .. now sound horse :D)

My vet wanted to do bar shoes first..which we did (feet did look a little better, soundness wasn't) and his only concerns re shoes off were 1) he had had some success for navicular but not tried for reverse rotation/poss coffin joint DJD)

2) it takes a while and you need patience and he was keen to stress that. /he doesn't know as much about its progress as shoeing

As it is he will be getting an email next week to let him know quite how sound he is 10 months later in the hope that he might suggest it to some others in future.

Similar situ in that my pony owed me nothing and I figured if he was retiring he was having shoes off anyway so we had nothing to loose and I didn't mind taking my time at all (prob was a bit OTT about that!)
 
I have a similar situation, horse with reverse rotation, heels that were getting worse despite the farriers best efforts, vet wanted wedges and bar shoes, farrier would not put wedges on, cue argument between farrier and vet. The horse was put into the bar shoes for 2 shoeings and remained sound, he was not actually lame in the first place just a little off jumping, he is now barefoot, farriers suggestion as well as mine, vet coming tomorrow to reassess but I think he will not be too happy with the way we are going. I may post his views tomorrow evening, xrays will hopefully show that they are improving and we can continue without remedial shoes, if they are worse it will be a difficult one:(

The horse had a short break when the shoes came off and is now back in light work, moving really well, when weather allows, heels are improving, soles have become much stronger although the fronts do not yet have any concavity, hinds look really good so hope the fronts will soon look the same.
 
She was sound for a bit with them on.

She is def. not sound now!! The problem for a while was that because she is bilaterally lame and quite a forward going horse, I didn't actually notice that there was a huge amount wrong at first.

It was only one day when we had to do a sharp turn on the road that I realised she was lame. Made me feel dreadful that it had obviously gone on for quite a long time and she was quietly suffering but continuing to do her normal job.

Then she had heartbars on and for the first week or so felt absolutely dreadful.

Then had both front coffin joints and hocks injected.

She felt better for about 6 weeks and we went out hunting. Pulled both front heartbars off within 30 mins. So we changed them to shoes like natural balance but can't remember the name of them.

Forward another 6 weeks and I've decided enough is enough. Its not fair on her and a short term quick fix isn't the way forwards.

So its diet change/shoes off and preparing for the locals to think I'm bonkers when I start leading her up the road for daily walks once she's ready!!
 
ghostie said:
good luck :)

My only comment would be to keep an eye on the Hi Fi molasses free - the alfalfa in it can make some horses footy - if you have a look on the Phoenix Barefoot Forum you'll see a lot of people have found this. It certainly seems to make my TB footy
Click to expand...

Noted!!

What would you recommend feeding instead? She is obviously not in work now but is having a bit of hard feed to put supplements in. She's having Purabeet too so I could cut out the Hi FI completely and just mix up supplements in that.
 
I had the exact same worries about the vet - mine had navicular diagnosis 2 years ago & we tried the remedial thing, I took her shoes off in September against vets wishes but 4 months later wanted to go to Rockley so had X-rays repeated. Actually vet was happy to book in for X-rays (money after all) and then agreed to referral when he realised I was determined ! Even to the point where he agreed yes maybe it was soft tissue damage after all....

Boots and pads are working for us, she's happily striding out and sound but I want to get her properly fixed so hence we are going to Rockley in Feb. At the end of the day it's you who are paying the bills, not them. This is something I figured out only recently, wish I'd taken charge earlier.
 
I am sorry to say i agree with Amymay, I think taking shoes off will only make matters worse. How are the pedal bones going to correct without assistance she will need pads, possibly a bar shoe and raised heels to put her foot in the correct position. taking shoes off may help the collapsed heels but make pedal done rotation worse.

Good luck though
 
Can I just point out that a hoof grows from the coronet band down and not the other way around so having shoes on should not inhibit rate of growth downward at all although they would restrict spread of course.
 
2horsesnomoney said:
I am sorry to say i agree with Amymay, I think taking shoes off will only make matters worse. How are the pedal bones going to correct without assistance she will need pads, possibly a bar shoe and raised heels to put her foot in the correct position. taking shoes off may help the collapsed heels but make pedal done rotation worse.

Good luck though
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Google Rockley Farm and search on here for barefoot rehab posts. There are a steadily increasing number of horses who are being brought back from pedal bone rotation by removing shoes, correct barefoot trimming and changes to diet. Several of which are owned by members on here. Remedial shoeing is no longer the only option....

Theres loads of info online if you're interested in learning all about it! :)
 
2horsesnomoney said:
I am sorry to say i agree with Amymay, I think taking shoes off will only make matters worse. How are the pedal bones going to correct without assistance she will need pads, possibly a bar shoe and raised heels to put her foot in the correct position. taking shoes off may help the collapsed heels but make pedal done rotation worse.

Good luck though
Click to expand...

Have you glossed over all the people with experience of this condition improving with a proper barefoot rehab? :)

It's not about jacking the foot up to make it look better, it's about strengthening the internal structures of the hoof. It's about making an unhealthy foot healthy - you can't do that by nailing lumps of metal on.
 
I posted something similar last month - but i lost my argument with the vet anyway! He is due back on Thursday for second shoeing with heartbars and more xrays which I am hoping will show an improvement.
Hope yours goes better than mine!
 
Emilieu said:
I posted something similar last month - but i lost my argument with the vet anyway! He is due back on Thursday for second shoeing with heartbars and more xrays which I am hoping will show an improvement.
Hope yours goes better than mine!
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Surely it's not the vet's job to tell you what to do? :confused: It's the vet's job to diagnose, and explain all the treatment options. If asked for their opinion they should give it. Then the owner decides what they're going to do. This is the relationship I have always worked on with my vet. He tells me what's wrong, and what can be done about it, then I tell him what I want him to do. I rather like it like that :).
 
Hopefully your farrier will be able to explain his reasoning to your vet. Whilst you don't have to take the vets advice it is so much easier if everyone is pulling in the same direction. Good luck.
 
2horsesnomoney said:
I am sorry to say i agree with Amymay, I think taking shoes off will only make matters worse. How are the pedal bones going to correct without assistance she will need pads, possibly a bar shoe and raised heels to put her foot in the correct position. taking shoes off may help the collapsed heels but make pedal done rotation worse.

Good luck though
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This quote from CPTrayes says it perfectly...

The poor hoof pastern axis is a result of the low heels your horse has. The low heels have possibly/probably been caused by shoes. The reverse pedal bone angle is due to the low heels, not the hoof pastern axis. Both are the result of the weak heels. The quickest and easiest and cheapest way to rebuild heels is to work the horse barefoot on supportive surfaces like a sand arena and on flat surfaces like roads. Once his heels beef up, the reverse pedal bone angle and the hoof/pastern axis will right themselves. Look on rockleyfarm.blogspot.com for many photos of heels beefing up in weeks with the right stimulus.

I originally believed that shoes would sort the problems out but now don't!! I think its a far better idea to go back to basics and let the horse heal itself. Its also far cheaper to have a horse trimmed than spend hundreds on remedial farriery (not that's why I'm doing this at all but it is worth mentioning!!).
 
I think the interesting thing about this post (and others of a similar vein) is that one method has been tried - and seems not to be working. So there's nothing wrong with trying something else.

With my horse one of the other issues was thin soles, and I know there have been many discussions on this particular issue in other 'shoes off' threads.

I certainly have learnt a lot from these discussions - and have gone from being someone who would have discounted much of what was said to someone who will now sit down and take note. However, I'd still be cautious from removing shoes from a horse who did have thin soles (regardless of the arguments for), because of the discomfort it could cause. I'm assuming thin soles on the OP's horse, because of the gel pads????

At the end of the day the important thing is the horse - and whether some other form of treatment can help. If not, at least it was tried.

My concern now, however, would be the state of the ground. Hard, icy and rutted is not condusive to suddenly going barefoot I would have though. However, OP may be turning out on a surface....
 
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