dressage...behind the vertical

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kate2323

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hi ,
i am interested in peoples thoughts on dressage and the continual viewing of horses and ponies behind the vertical...in BD at all levels filtering down to unaffilaiated
is this now the norm in dressage ( bd / unaffiliated / riding club ...if so is this a trend we should be following or trying to stop?
As a rider I do find it easier to pull my horse down and kick it from behind to achieve a beautiful yet "false and possibly painful" round and submissive horse then to ride correctly and get a beautiful streamlined head and back... I choose to ride in the latter style always yet continually loose marks as my horse is " not submissive , not accepting the bridle etc etc " but he is free, happy and "up" - on the bit does not have to be neck pulled in surely?!!
this is a real dilemma....
feel free to debate
 
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Bear in mind not all horses are BTV as the rider is forcing them to be. Just like some who evade/avoid/ still learning to work properly on the bit will go above, some will also duck behind. Particularly with lower level stuff, where horses may not yet be truly trained to be round or on the bit yet, ducking BTV could be quite common.

I actually find it annoying when people presume a horse is BTV as the rider has socked him in the gob or see-sawed the reins to get him there - some horses just naturally chose that way of going and it takes some careful training to get them out of it.

At an Unaff show I was at recently, i got the comment of "over bent" so it is certainly something the judges do see, and comment /deduct marks on. My boy will naturally tuck BTV, I spend a huge amount of our time trying to get him to stretch him frame and neck out. But just like others who are naturally star gazers, or ABV, while we are still in more basic training there are times where he drops the nice outline and ends up btv for a few strides.
 
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good point but should this be rewarded - why cant judges actually be allowed to write "behind the bit" ," in front of the bit "and "on the bit"...why is everything clouded in mystique with expressions like "does not accept the bridle" , "not submissive " "not through"
Why can't judges speak in plain english?!
 
I've seen "ducking behind bit/contact" on sheets before... I hate seeing horses with their chins on their chests, and I think BTV should be strictly penalised relative to on, or just in front of the vertical (i.e. working correctly into the bit). Equally I think horses cruising round without any notion of working into the bit should be marked down accordingly. Judges have to look at the whole picture, and whilst I agree that some need to be harsher on BTV, I don't think this is a universal problem.
 
kate2323 said:
every prelim/novice/elementary BD competition i have entered most horses are btv. fact
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It is certainly not the case when I have been out, BD, BE or unaff, most judges mark down horses that are btv, one horse I had was inclined to drop behind, definitely not pulled there, his marks always reflected this and the comments were usually that he was btv or some similar term, the collectives also reflected his inclination to duck behind, he was a super mover but hardly ever managed to get a good mark as he became tense in the arena.
 
sorry but I regularly do BD and most horse in prelim and novice are btv....that is why there is now so much press about dressage in crisis appearing as this is a real issue..people are training horses for a quick fix so they look "round "when infact they are incorrect and btv...resulting in back problems, kissing spines etc etc...it takes a long time to train a horse correctly so alot of people want a quick fix ....
 
Fascinating, I see v few btv when judging and know few judges who speak in less than plain English. Obviously in a lucky area.
As a trainee judge, btv and node poking are equally penalised if they have an equal affect on the whole picture.
 
As I say, Essex, rarely see notably BTV horses in the ring here. Unless you count my 4 year old doing his first unaff prelim the other month, where he did spend a lot of time BTV (and a fairly equal amount of time exiting the arena or throwing himself around in a paddy), who was obviously marked down dramatically for tension...

kate2323 said:
people are training horses for a quick fix so they look "round "when infact they are incorrect and btv...resulting in back problems, kissing spines etc etc...
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Have you actually got any evidence to support that statement? "BTV (and that's BTV NOT rollkur for this debate) causes back problems and KS"...
 
Kate I see it a lot too. I'm fairly local to you so it might be a regional thing. I do think there's a move away from that in the last year or two, and it was worse three years ago than it is now.

It's something that interests me and I've done a lot of reading on it.

You get BTV for many many reasons. Sometimes it's a lack of strength on the part of the horse, sometimes it is simply their head being cranked in by the rider. Some horses go through a phase of it before they learn to carry themselves in a more upright outline.
 
kate2323 said:
every prelim/novice/elementary BD competition i have entered most horses are btv. fact
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You will always see horses btv, for various reasons (as mentioned by other posters). I don't think this can be called a trend and it is not advocated by judging guidelines. Unless you read all of these horses test sheets you can't possibly know what the judges comments are. There are many aspects to judge on each movement, and little time/ space for comments. If a horse is consistently btv in a test, then this will be reflected in each movement mark, and will be commented on in the judges comments. A judge will try to offer "constructive" comments - just writing "horse btv", is not useful, as there are so many reasons for a horse to btv. Therefore where possible a judge will give an idea of where they feel the issue is arising, e.g "not through", "against the hand" etc etc.

Btv is not acceptable at any level, but the importance and how it reflects in the marks does change as you move up the levels and scales of training. The higher you go, the more you will get hammered on your marks for incorrect way of going.
 
Interesting thread and question - for when I was looking to buy a horse, so many of the pics in ads showed a horse with head behind the vertical. Danger signal for me. That wasnt the way I had been taught to ride or bring on a horse. But as a novice I assumed that for most riders it must be regarded as a selling point?
 
I see a lot of BTV too, in photos, at shows, it looks so normal here now and people seem to think it looks pretty and I think don't even realise that a horse is BTV. I'm not talking about really BTV, I think most people can spot that, I'm talking just BTV or broken at the third vertebrae - it is so common place, I wonder how many horses who are ridden like this or who offer this are marked down as BTV when it maybe isn't so obvious but still incorrect
 
There is a dressage trainer and competitor not far from me who often posts pics of her on her horses on FB. All but one I have seen was BTV, which makes me think she doesn't even realise it isn't good. Not hyperflexion (rollkur) but just BTV, so IMHO that means the flexion is being developed from the front not the hind engagement. This may only be snapshots, as she regularly posts scores of approaching 70+, and decent placings/qualifying. Either the photos are a bad example (yet still she posts them!!) or they are like that in tests and the judges don't penalise it.
Either way not brilliant from someone who regards herself as a dressage trainer.
 
To some people my horse might look like he is btv at times but he isn't, if you look at the pics of him his face is on the vertical, its his neck he has shortened. Therefore in our last test we didnt have btv but we did have coming short in the neck in a couple of movements.
Also, with my boy tension causes him to sometimes actually come behind in his warm up, I ignore him pretty much and just keep trying to activate the hind leg through transitions, shoulder in etc. He usually comes much more up and out in the test ( bar one or two , green at this level, movements) so what you would see in the warm up isnt how he would go in the test.
 
Op i would be interested to see pics of your horse and videos of how he works. One persons "up free and happy" is another persons *braced over the topline, against the contact and hollow* and that is NO BETTER than being BTV.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
. One persons "up free and happy" is another persons *braced over the topline, against the contact and hollow* and that is NO BETTER than being BTV.
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Agreed.
Wheels; - mentions broken in the third vertebra. This is not exclusive to btv and can also be seen in horses above and on the bit.

As I've already posted, just because it is "seen", does not mean it's being marked favourably in dressage tests.
 
Yes I agree, broken at the third vertebrae can be above or behind, neither is correct but I would hazard a guess that a lot of people don't realise it's wrong either way
 
JillA said:
There is a dressage trainer and competitor not far from me who often posts pics of her on her horses on FB. All but one I have seen was BTV, which makes me think she doesn't even realise it isn't good. Not hyperflexion (rollkur) but just BTV, so IMHO that means the flexion is being developed from the front not the hind engagement. This may only be snapshots, as she regularly posts scores of approaching 70+, and decent placings/qualifying. Either the photos are a bad example (yet still she posts them!!) or they are like that in tests and the judges don't penalise it.
Either way not brilliant from someone who regards herself as a dressage trainer.
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Yes Jill, I see this a lot too - a photo of a trainer and bd rider I saw recently with overbent tense horse and a positive comment from the rider. This type of thing is what makes me wonder if we are just so used to seeing these things that it looks normal!!
 
If you go back and watch the dressage greats from the 70s, you'll often see long necks and noses slightly forward. Move to modern day lower level dressage and 'for sale' pics, and you'll often see BTV, and in higher level dressage, short necks and no attempt to lengthen them.

OH's mare still curls back behind the vertical and shortens the neck, as she has power without the strength to cope with it, and he spends a lot of time encouraging her to reach forward with neck and nose. I've ridden her twice (delighted to have been allowed as she's his 'Precious') and can vouch for the fact that it's not the fact he's hauling on the reins or pulling the nose in. But she's getting better.
 
I think a lot of BTV comes from lack of strength in the horse. It appears that people want their horse to be working "perfectly" (in inverted commas) very "up" and on the bit even at Intro/Prelim level, rather than the "novice outline" i.e. longer neck, nose in front of the vertical that is requested.

My mare, who, although is 7, is still learning about contact, went very quickly from being very above the bit 70% of the time to really ducking behind the contact, especially if she finds something difficult or has to concentrate a lot. It takes quite a lot of subtelty and very precise timing to stop the "duck and drop." And she will stay tucked btv even with little to no contact as she doesn't yet have the strength to lift through the back, withers and poll for extended periods.
 
I think it hugely depends on what level you are competing at and watching - certainly in prelim/novice you are going to get a lot of horses who haven't learnt to work properly and are still trying to understand and find their balance. Similarly you are going to get riders who are less experienced and haven't yet learnt the 'feeling' of a horse working properly.

From my own experience of riding a wide variety of horses with various schooling issues I have rarely not been pulled up for what I know to be the glaringly obvious - e.g. overbent, not engaging hindquarters etc, but I also feel that if this is ONLY what the judge commented on then it wouldn't be very educational i.e. my current horse is still developing his balance and strength and is learning to take the weight into his hindquarters - this then means at times he falls on the forehand - every judge so far has commented on this but has also commented on positives such as his regular rhythm and willingness. At this level I feel that this is the correct thing to do.

By no means am I defending riding a horse behind the vertical and it should always be corrected but sometimes in the middle of a dressage test you ride the horse that is presented to you and if that horse goes tense then you mainly concentrate on relaxation at the risk of losing marks elsewhere.
 
Also are we talking in test or in warm up or both?

I don't think I see over bent horses much more than I see ones not tracking up and other issues.

When BDing novice/elem in somerset (so not a million miles from you!) a couple of years ago with a pony inclined to duck behind the bridle as his avoidance tactic everyone I was judged by commented on it when he did it and he was marked down (also when he would head swing which was not as a result of me sawing, but of him not going forwards properly - but might look otherwise to bystanders :p). Unaffiliated he seems to have gotten away with it a bit more.
 
kate2323 said:
every prelim/novice/elementary BD competition i have entered most horses are btv. fact
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Massive generalisation there IMO. I was spectating at a BD comp at the weekend watching the prelim and novice riders warm up, and there were only one or two who occasionally ducked BTV. And I know for a fact that one was a green 7 year old who is still working out how to get a leg in each corner consistently, and pops BTV while she regains balance.
 
am I one of just a few who see that dressage is moving towards the norm of a pulled in horse ....depressing ....no-one bar a few people seem to see this as a problem....this is the worrying thing!!!!!!!
 
My horse isn't pulled in! He might drop btv or come a bit short in the neck in the odd movement but that's simply a lack of balance and confidence at a more advanced level, these moments will go as he gets more established. Im not going to stop competing him though just because of that. The only way to get him more confident is to keep doing it!
 
im not criticising you ! just been looking at the overall picture of the way horses seem to be trained....go to any dressage comp and have a look for yourself....
 
kate2323 said:
im not criticising you ! just been looking at the overall picture of the way horses seem to be trained....go to any dressage comp and have a look for yourself....
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You see all sorts of training issues at dressage comps, not just btv. Most of the unaffiliated comps around where I am the standard is really poor, with horses hurried/rushed/unbalanced/noses poking/outward bend, yet they get scored highly. I don't think any of those issues are any less potentially damaging or uncomfortable for the horse than being btv tbh.
 
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