dressage...behind the vertical

kate2323 said:
am I one of just a few who see that dressage is moving towards the norm of a pulled in horse ....depressing ....no-one bar a few people seem to see this as a problem....this is the worrying thing!!!!!!!
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Well I'm only doing UA Prelim, BE80 and UA 90s but I haven't seen that in those competitions. At UA Prelim (and when watching Intro and Nov classes either side) I've seen all sorts: horses working correctly for their level, horses above the bit, the odd horse a bit BTV, naughty horses, lazy horses, horses poking their noses and trailing hindlegs... everything, including also some really very nice DR tests. At BE80 I've seen variations on the above and nice DR tests with most people's horses working primarily along the correct lines. At UA 90 (and when I've watched BE90 tests), again the DR tests are mostly fine. In general because it's a higher level there are less nose poking horses and more generally correct horses doing nice tests.

So I'm certainly not seeing that in my area.
 
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yes I agree....I really think the levels of training need to be more structured and organised....so people actually know what to work towards at all levels...having a beautifully balanced horse like a ballerina should be the norm....light and harmonious....I have seen SO many horses with riders hands low sawing away to get the horse "on the bit" getting the rosettes.....its sad!!
 
kate2323 said:
.I have seen SO many horses with riders hands low sawing away to get the horse "on the bit" getting the rosettes.....its sad!!
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Now if you'd posted about riders "see sawing" to get their horse on the vertical (or indeed in the general vicinity of it), I would have been onside from the start. BTV is usually a lack of strength and a stage of training, in most educated circles. See sawing and general abuse of contact is a result a lack of education, understanding and common sense and it makes me want to mash the rider's face into a blender...
 
sorry should have mentioned that from the start....but it does seem the default position for alot ( NOT all ) ridiers to think btv is the norm and that see-sawing is the way to get there.....
 
I think I know what the OP is trying to get at - I've seen a lot of lower level horses who are definitely pulled in. You can tell it's the rider as the horse is btv for most of the test, not just passing moments where the balance/engagement has been lost... I guess it used to be more common to see young/inexperienced horses who were a bit nose pokey but that is now "unacceptable" and btv is seen as the lesser of the two evils. We bred a horse who has a tendancy to come btv by himself, but in my opinion this is different to being "pulled in".
 
JFTD said:
Judges have to look at the whole picture, and whilst I agree that some need to be harsher on BTV, I don't think this is a universal problem.
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Promise you it is! Often seen on NZ dressage sheets. BTV, some of the less experienced judges miss it or ignore it.

As a writer and a classical minded dressage person it really frustrates me seeing horses BTV. We have one regular rider that rides every horse BTV. Judges are known to tear their hair out when they see this rider with yet another horse BTV.

As a coach of young riders at Pony Club I am constantly faced with the see saw method. It's hard to get them to understand why it's wrong but those that become more interested in schooling eventually grasp the concept of riding into a quiet contact.

Same goes for the less experienced adult riders to. They see people do it, find that the horse gives to the pressure and then keep their fingers crossed the back end joins the party.

I have seen vast improvement in the 27 years I've been in New Zealand as we see more international coaches visit.
 
please go to a bd comp and look at the novice r and o....more than 50% are btv . Tis is not "correct" but seems to be the norm...
 
I;m not really trying to argue just love the debate....really think in the next few years we will see a more harmonious way forward for grassroots dressage ....free and light.... but all work in progress.... the btv is getting ridiculous now and the fact judges DO mark a "rounder " outline at low level dressage with the good marks.....this needs to change.
 
I enjoy debate too, OP, but you have to be able to support your claims and be open to other perspectives for it to actually count as one ;)

Tnavas said:
Promise you it is!
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Actually, if you read my post, Tnavas, you'd realise I was saying that judges rewarding BTV is "not a universal problem". Which you clearly agree with since you stated that it is commonly flagged up on sheets over there.
 
JFTD said:
I enjoy debate too, OP, but you have to be able to support your claims and be open to other perspectives for it to actually count as one ;)



Actually, if you read my post, Tnavas, you'd realise I was saying that judges rewarding BTV is "not a universal problem". Which you clearly agree with since you stated that it is commonly flagged up on sheets over there.
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Hi - yes I've misunderstood your comment - I was thinking that the BTV was not a universal problem
 
I think it's a bit cultural too. I have found English people tend to ride with a very strong contact while French riders have floppy hands (am taking average riders here, not pros).
Not a representative sample, but was a bit shocked when my English friend rode my mare. The mare had her chin nearly touching the chest. This never happens with her own horse.

Otherwise, to me there is nothing wrong with a pokey nose (in front of vertical) as long as horse accepts the bit and gives when rein aid is given. Perhaps I don't have the same definition of "pokey nose"?
 
Yes - let's have a definition of "on the bit"? To me that is taking a light contact and responding to it, wherever the head is - as opposed to "outline" (oh how I hate that term!)
 
JillA said:
Yes - let's have a definition of "on the bit"? To me that is taking a light contact and responding to it, wherever the head is - as opposed to "outline" (oh how I hate that term!)
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Personally I find it helps if you think of the horse as always moving towards a light and elastic contact - that way, in an ideal world, the horse is never above or below the vertical but always achieving the "perfect" state. However, as we all know, horses and riders aren't perfect but most do try very hard to be as good as they can. At all the BD comps I have been to (and I compete regularly, and judge) there have been very few horses going round overbent, and those that do are either momentarily BTV or, usually, clearly not quite strong enough yet to work in an ideal outline, hence why you see it at the lower levels. We are all works in progress, and anyone who says their horse goes in a perfect contact, 100% of the time is, frankly, either deluded or lying.

Similarly, when I judge, I comment if a horse is dropping behind the vertical, and make a comment in the collectives about how the horse needs to be stepping through from behind into an elastic contact. Every judge I know does this, when my girl evades by dropping behind it's always commented on, and I don't think there's any question of judges shilly shallying around the subject as the OP seems to suggest, they are just trying to make helpful and informative comments under huge time pressures.
 
I think BTV is too simplistic a term as well.

Here my horse is soft and through, but he is overbent.

Screen_shot_2014_08_20_at_18_27_41.jpg


Here is an older pic with his face on the vertical, but that is because he's bracing his lower neck.

pt1.jpg


Neither is perfect, but at this stage in his training (early, prelim level!!!) the first frame is healthier. If you look at his legs in the first pic, you can see they move as a pair. In the second pic, the front legs are hitting the ground before the hind, meaning he is on the forehand, despite being in a more upright outline. You can also see an arc from shoulders to poll in the first pic, the second photo he is broken at the 3rd. Lastly, in the first pic you can see that behind his saddle, his back is lifted. In the second photo, there is a dip, meaning he is not working through his back. I think the head isn't the most important thing to look at!

I do think the emphasis on a horse being 'in an outline' is detrimental at the lower levels, because you get heads cranked in, and it is common!! But I have definitely seen a move towards a more holistic approach in the last year or so.
 
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in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
 
kate2323 said:
in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
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The head is not the only important point though - you have to look at the whole animal. Welcome to JFTD's Holistic Dressage Agency...
 
yes I agree...you have to really look at the whole horse...have just spent all afternoon with a Dutch trainer talking out BTV, " up" and the correct muscles we need to develop... there are too many people not understanding the anatomy of the horse out there competing....
 
"But he is more classically correct than in the second picture." In the second picture he is in a false frame, and broken at the third, so his poll isn't actually the highest point! Which unfortunately is super easy to do, especially with a snakey thoroughbred neck :) He is not strong enough yet to carry himself so that his poll is the highest point, but he is still lifting through his back and arcing his neck. He can do it for about half a circle, or the long side of the arena, and then gets too tired and has to stretch.
 
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With those two pictures being a snap shot in time of a horse working at prelim I prefer the overall impression on the first picture. Yes he's over bent but he's got his engine engaged, taking more weight behind and going forward.

With the second picture he looks pretty but ineffective (no offence pigeon)
 
kate2323 said:
in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
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From the first picture he will become strong enough to carry himself he is pushing himself along from behind and going to the next stage of being more up is just a moment away, if continued to work in the way of the second he will become incorrectly muscled up and struggle to progress correctly, you have to look at the engine first and what is happening behind the rider not just what is in front.
 
kate2323 said:
yes I agree...you have to really look at the whole horse...have just spent all afternoon with a Dutch trainer talking out BTV, " up" and the correct muscles we need to develop... there are too many people not understanding the anatomy of the horse out there competing....
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I agree, but my standards are probably unfairly high - not everyone has the opportunity to have studied anatomy at vet schools ;)
 
kate2323 said:
in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
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But the head is only one part of the horse - the whole point is that the horse works correctly from behind and into the contact, not bracing against and fixing the head.

The horse is working better in the first picture and as strength builds he will come up in front.
The bottom pic horse is 'set' in the frame of being on the bit, but not actually working from behind.

As Pigeon says, horse is working better in first pic but head not quite there, but if continued to work that way the head will come up and will have the strength to take the contact forward.

Kate a horse can be working correctly but if can't maintain the movement/position etc. due to lack of strength etc. it can come behind the vertical simply by itself! Not necessarily a hauled in outline.
Plus, the poll might not be at the highest point at prelim - personally, I wouldn't expect that high a frame until working at a much higher level.

Oh, and I know the anatomy of a horse and know the muscles pretty well also. But you can't isolate the working of a muscle in order to strengthen it - they all work as a system. Yes, you can do exercises which are targeted at a particular muscle but the exercise will affect others as well. But unless the engine is working the exercise to build a muscle is a moot point!
 
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kate2323 said:
in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
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Dear me. This first picture is the basis for correct way of going down the line. The second picture is braced and of long term detriment.
 
catroo said:
With those two pictures being a snap shot in time of a horse working at prelim I prefer the overall impression on the first picture. Yes he's over bent but he's got his engine engaged, taking more weight behind and going forward.

With the second picture he looks pretty but ineffective (no offence pigeon)
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Exactly!!

My point is, the horse doesn't trot with his head. I think that you should look at the hind end, back and legs first. At prelim level, it's not a finished picture, and I think as long as you focus on lift through the back and stepping under with the hind legs, and hopefully a soft mouth, where the head is shouldn't matter so much, whether IFTV or BTV.

I find if you block a horse into BTV, it's really reflected in the hind legs, whereas a horse that's behind the vertical because either because it's stretching or not strong enough to be more upright, can still step through.
 
Also the term Classical dressage interests me.

Classical is usually taken to mean a Spanish Riding School type approach, but I wonder if the principles you would apply to a young horse with the conformation of a Lipizzaner or other baroque type, isn't really applicable to a thoroughbred. Just because of neck set and conformation.
 
kate2323 said:
in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
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You cannot just expect a horse to be 'classically correct' immediately. It takes a lot of hard work and a long time. The first pic shows a horse who is working through well and despite being slightly btv is on the right track to becoming strong enough and supple enough to lift up at the poll. You can't expect it to happen overnight.
 
I think a lot of this is because directives are so hazy at prelim level.

You get horses that should really be at novice or above competing at prelim, and others start to feel they need to be asking for an advanced frame when really at that stage, straightness, rhythm, relaxation and an element of responsiveness are all you need. That's assuming the levels of competing reflect the stages of training a dressage horse, which I'm not so sure is strictly true.
 
kate2323 said:
yes I agree...you have to really look at the whole horse...have just spent all afternoon with a Dutch trainer talking out BTV, " up" and the correct muscles we need to develop... there are too many people not understanding the anatomy of the horse out there competing....
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there are too many people who dont understand how to develop a horse from prelim to GP out there spouting nonsense on the internet........

its deemed politically incorrect to say so but horses have to be submissive to the hand in the same way they are submissive to the leg-you touch and something should damn well happen. I see a lot of klassical nonsense telling you that any horse poking its nose forward is reaching for the contact but its fairly obvious from the tight back and braced neck that if the rider closed the hand the horse would either yaw and brace in the mouth, or hollow completely and invert.

to make a horses supple and strong enough to move in self carriage you gradually teach the horse to move its body around, each section, each mucle independently until you can alter the bend, the flexion, the frame, the gear, the lateral direction, one at a time, without it impacting on anything else-thats self carriage, not being able to throw the reins at its ears and have it stay in the same stuck frame!
 
thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...
 
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