dressage...behind the vertical

Apart from the weirdness in the middle, this has been a very interesting thread. Thank you kate2323 for kicking off a great discussion on training and contact...even if this wasn't quite your aim ;)

The contact piece is interesting. In Hong Kong, I was trained by a classical German trainer who taught me about steady, but quite firm, contact with an emphasis on everything being smooth ("you must be clear and firm BUT SMOOTHLY" as my horse went bucking across the arena... ;)).

Mid-way through my lessons with him, I headed to Spain and had a couple of lessons on my trainer's schoolmaster. Said trainer is very 'classical' in the way the term is used these days in the UK - lots of in-hand work, no gadgets and Iberian horses trained for doma vaquera as well as classical dressage. I thought I'd need to lighten my hands compared to the German style and it was a disaster! Spanish trainer was yelling at me "Contact!! No clack clack clack!!" Exactly as others have said - the 'light' contact was actually very unstable and distracting for the horse.

I pulled up and asked the trainer to take the other end of the reins so I could feel his usual contact and it was far stronger than it looked from the ground. He rides predominantly from his seat yet still expects that submission and often complains that north European horses 'have no mouth' (he is often sent horses to improve their piaffe and passage).

Fun Times - don't worry, you're not the thread killer but I usually am so apologies in advance!
 
Pigeon said:
Elastic is a good description, I describe the feel like play dough. Malleable. The sort of contact where you can half halt with one finger and it actually means something. If you have to move your hands you haven't enough contact!!
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This . . . it's very easy to say, though, and quite hard to do . . . which, I guess, is why "feel" is so important. For years, I struggled with this concept that having a horse light in the hand a) takes an enormous amount of training and work; and b) doesn't mean there's nothing in your hand.

I may get shot down for saying this, but I've lost count of the number of times our dressage trainer has said "push him into your hand" about Kal in order to get him to submit and be soft . . . meaning engage his back end, send him forward and then give him something (still) to go forward into . . . I had another trainer describe it as a circle of energy - created with the leg, captured with the hand and directed via the seat. Oh, and if you don't have a contact - i.e., have the horse somewhat in your hand/are containing some of the energy with your hand, how on earth are you having a conversation down the bit - and if you're not having a conversation down the bit, what is the bit for?

P
 
Pigeon said:
Is he a Highland or a Lipizzaner? :D
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I suspect the latter ;)

Fun Times said:
Well at least no one can accuse him of being on the forehand and he certainly has his hind legs underneath him (thank god)! Bit naughty of you to give him a hug though as that could be regarded as rewarding his bad behaviour!!
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He's very light on the forehand, and you couldn't say I'm holding his head in either :p Gotta hug him some times!
 
JFTD said:
BTV - shoot me now!

10374848_240205789521808_7996569496475498940_n.png


Where as Daemon prefers to:

put your head right in

10448205_228370667371987_9114629821800164635_n.jpg


out

10152050_228370704038650_5904323032851319715_n.jpg


shake it all about

10543599_228370364038684_7884328103268562003_n.jpg
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At least you are fundamentally interconnected....
 
Fascinating thread! (apart from the flounce)

I'm another who is moving into the world of Dressage and trying to 'learn' it!

I think something that many instructors forget is to clarify what a lot of these terms actually mean (like 'light' 'forward' etc). I had a huge light bulb moment about my horse being forward and in front of the leg. Here I was getting my lovely young boy to really power around the arena, because he needed to be forward, right? I couldn't understand why my instructor was saying 'slow the tempo!!!', so I asked her to clarify. Basically she said that 'forward' and 'in front of the leg' are more of a state of mind than tempo, so the horse is ready and willing to move off with impulsion at the slightest suggestion of leg. Big facepalm moment from me, and now horse is actually really starting to relax and develop cadence and swing in his movement :)

So as far as my anecdotal ramble goes, perhaps the term 'light' is simply a very bare, and misleading description of the fact that the horse will be responsive and steady in the mouth (with contact), and light of the forehand, hence engaged? How often when learning did I think when the instructor yelled "horse needs to be lighter" did I immediately assume in my hand? When really they mean we should be working towards developing the right muscles and strength to allow the horse to engage properly and hold itself in a steady, elastic contact?

I think a lot of confusion comes from people teaching with only part of the picture known?
 
Lyle said:
Fascinating thread! (apart from the flounce)

I'm another who is moving into the world of Dressage and trying to 'learn' it!

I think something that many instructors forget is to clarify what a lot of these terms actually mean (like 'light' 'forward' etc). I had a huge light bulb moment about my horse being forward and in front of the leg. Here I was getting my lovely young boy to really power around the arena, because he needed to be forward, right? I couldn't understand why my instructor was saying 'slow the tempo!!!', so I asked her to clarify. Basically she said that 'forward' and 'in front of the leg' are more of a state of mind than tempo, so the horse is ready and willing to move off with impulsion at the slightest suggestion of leg. Big facepalm moment from me, and now horse is actually really starting to relax and develop cadence and swing in his movement :)

So as far as my anecdotal ramble goes, perhaps the term 'light' is simply a very bare, and misleading description of the fact that the horse will be responsive and steady in the mouth (with contact), and light of the forehand, hence engaged? How often when learning did I think when the instructor yelled "horse needs to be lighter" did I immediately assume in my hand? When really they mean we should be working towards developing the right muscles and strength to allow the horse to engage properly and hold itself in a steady, elastic contact?

I think a lot of confusion comes from people teaching with only part of the picture known?
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When I teach...it tends to be for about 90 minutes, but with breaks as I find it totally counter productive to ask a rider to do something that they don't understand. It's probably why I have so many analogies for everything. I have to find a way to have a rider "get" it or there's just no point.
 
PolarSkye said:
I've lost count of the number of times our dressage trainer has said "push him into your hand" about Kal in order to get him to submit and be soft . . . meaning engage his back end, send him forward and then give him something (still) to go forward into . . . I had another trainer describe it as a circle of energy - created with the leg, captured with the hand and directed via the seat.

P
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This. My friend and I jokingly call it the patented 'block and boot' method. Please note I said jokingly ! But seriously,you have to have something for the horse to go up to.. took me ages to twig :)
 
cobden said:
This. My friend and I jokingly call it the patented 'block and boot' method. Please note I said jokingly ! But seriously,you have to have something for the horse to go up to.. took me ages to twig :)
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Yes...and I missed that post PS. It absolutely IS a circle of movement. Up through the hindleg, round over the back and down through the rein and round under the girth back to the start point. :)
 
_GG_ said:
Yes...and I missed that post PS. It absolutely IS a circle of movement. Up through the hindleg, round over the back and down through the rein and round under the girth back to the start point. :)
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I'm confused now, sorry. If the feeling is down through the reins then wouldn't that mean that the horse must be overbent, or on its forehand or both? Shouldn't the feeling on the reins be out from the rider, not down from the rider?
 
joycec said:
I'm confused now, sorry. If the feeling is down through the reins then wouldn't that mean that the horse must be overbent, or on its forehand or both? Shouldn't the feeling on the reins be out from the rider, not down from the rider?
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Good point... i like to feel them being taken up and out in front?
 
joycec said:
I'm confused now, sorry. If the feeling is down through the reins then wouldn't that mean that the horse must be overbent, or on its forehand or both? Shouldn't the feeling on the reins be out from the rider, not down from the rider?
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Farma said:
Good point... i like to feel them being taken up and out in front?
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Yes...I was just simplifying the circle shape through the horse, not meaning that the contact goes down if that makes sense. It's not actually a circle if you draw it...well, it is, but a squashed one lol.
 
I wonder how the OP know for sure that these BD Prelim to Ele horses are not being marked down and commented on being Btv? I'm currently competing BD prelim and yesterday did our first novice. My girl can drop sometimes through turns, due to balance and strength, it's something we are working on. If she does it in a test it is always picked up. Just because you see horses working that way does not mean it is being overlooked by judges.
 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xOOKx8hxRKM

Am I seeing straight? Is ninety percent of this test today by the current number one horse in the world both overbent and broken at C3/C4?

Does modern dressage still have the objective of the horse being poll high? Can the extravagant movement needed to win at top level dressage not be shown by a horse which is poll high and not overbent?
 
joycec said:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xOOKx8hxRKM

Am I seeing straight? Is ninety percent of this test today by the current number one horse in the world both overbent and broken at C3/C4?

Does modern dressage still have the objective of the horse being poll high? Can the extravagant movement needed to win at top level dressage not be shown by a horse which is poll high and not overbent?
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Valegro is poll high through the vast vast majority of the text and he hardly ever drops behind the vertical as far as I can see. The behind the vertical thing is difficult as his white snip makes it almost impossible to see the vertical angle of his head from pretty much every view, so when you are just following the line of dark hair, yes, it looks ever so slightly overbent, but when you realise there is more nose there, you can just hardly see it, it is clear that he isn't at all overbent for most of it.

As for the poll high, I think it is a case of the muscling leading the eye away from the skeletal form of the horse. It looks like he's broken, but he isn't, he's just a well muscled horse and he's that way from correct work. Look at the overall picture. When you look along the jaw/gullet line, it is open and unrestricted and not in anyway close to how it looks when a horse is broken and overbent.

It's just a bit of an optical illusion. Look beyond the obvious at what is actually happening and you'd be hard beat to find a more consistent contact. :)
 
joycec said:
I'm freezing the video. It's not an optical illusion.
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Well, I haven't done that but there's nothing major I can see wrong with it when I look at the whole picture. I think it is a bit of an optical illusion with the neck bend but that's me. I do prefer to see horses ever so slightly above the vertical, but to critique this means a margin of a centimetre either way and you can watch videos of this horse right from when he was a baby in early training and I have never seen evidence of any work that could cause a break. As an overall picture, it's a happy horse in a consistent contact. Never, in any test, have I seen Valegro shoot deep behind the vertical which is what invariably happens when a horse is trained in a very overbent manner...like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O9iHq1XOv0


Charlotte and Valegro are one of the last combinations I would criticise as they are paving the way towards more riders and trainers to seek a more harmonious way of training...unlike that favoured by the Dutch.
 
I'm wondering quite how you can tell that 90% of the test was BTV, with those camera angles that's really impossible to tell. Yes there are some moments of BTV but then she didn't score 100% so the judges aren't saying it was a perfect test.

Some movements showed more BTV than others, some movements had a quick dip behind for a stride or so and then out of it again.
 
Wheels said:
I'm wondering quite how you can tell that 90% of the test was BTV, with those camera angles that's really impossible to tell. Yes there are some moments of BTV but then she didn't score 100% so the judges aren't saying it was a perfect test.

Some movements showed more BTV than others, some movements had a quick dip behind for a stride or so and then out of it again.
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Wasn't there a 100% test scored this year somewhere...would be fab to see a video of that. :)
 
I can't watch the test on my mobile so will save that pleasure for my PC tomorrow.
Valegro way of going is rarely BTV though, sometimes in the canter piris I seem to recall thinking he drew back a bit.
There are certainly top dressage horses that show a BTV tendency but I wouldn't automatically put valegro in that catagory.
I do wonder if sometimes people look at the muscle profile rather than the skeleton line
 
Personally I prefer to see a test where the head moves *a little* rather than being rigid and tight through neck and back, it shows there's elasticity through the body and power from the back end. But like GG I don't think the video shows a horses behind the bit, I think CDJ and Valegro are about the best example of harmony you could find.
 
ihatework said:
There are certainly top dressage horses that show a BTV tendency but I wouldn't automatically put valegro in that catagory.


I do wonder if sometimes people look at the muscle profile rather than the skeleton line
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This is what I was thinking, the fact that Valegro has a very cresty neck means the top of the crest is above the poll but not that he is incorrect in his way of going, he does dip behind at times but it is momentarily and will be marked accordingly.
 
be positive said:
This is what I was thinking, the fact that Valegro has a very cresty neck means the top of the crest is above the poll but not that he is incorrect in his way of going, he does dip behind at times but it is momentarily and will be marked accordingly.
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That was my point re illusion. Add to that a plait placed right where the muscle is at its highest too. When you look at a horse like Parzival at the 2012 Olympics he looks obviously poll high, but the angle of his jaw/gullet looks extremely severe and he doesn't just dip above and below the odd centimetre like Valegro, but he is really quite inconsistent and almost bobbing headed at times.

It's hard sometimes to remember what's going on beneath the soft tissue.
 
JFTD said:
See sawing and general abuse of contact is a result a lack of education, understanding and common sense and it makes me want to mash the rider's face into a blender...
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I have very little to add to this thread as I'm no where near as knowledgeable as the rest of you; but can I use this as my sig please? And general life motto? Tempted to get it printed on the side of my tow car and trailer :P.
 
MyDogIsAnIdiot said:
I have very little to add to this thread as I'm no where near as knowledgeable as the rest of you; but can I use this as my sig please? And general life motto? Tempted to get it printed on the side of my tow car and trailer :P.
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Haha yes - get the word out there :p
 
be positive said:
This is what I was thinking, the fact that Valegro has a very cresty neck means the top of the crest is above the poll but not that he is incorrect in his way of going, he does dip behind at times but it is momentarily and will be marked accordingly.
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Lots of stallions and high level dressage horses have muscles that mean that the poll is not visibly the highest point .
The poll has to be a the highest point of the skeleton not the soft tissues .
 
This is my take on it...

A horses spine...showing the Atlas, Axis and C3 (not marked but is next to the Axis, C3 being where the majority agree is where a horse becomes "broken" when overbent with the use of force.

horseskeleton_zps57518faa.jpg


A horse "broken" at C3, where the head is so far behind the vertical and the poll is far too low.
images3_zpsb9d50cef.jpg


Valegro....where the only place that one could say there is a break in the neck is actually at the Atlas/Axis joint, not the C3. What can be perceived as a break in the neck above the C3 is actually just crest. Photo below, lool closely at the angle of the poll/jaw line. He is very very marginally btv, but then he didn't score a ten for every movement in the test, so nobody is saying it is perfect, but he is poll high.
12_hagen_dujardin_valegro_0355_zpsffa400c8.jpg


The reason he looks not to be poll high and the reason he creates an illusion of not being poll high is his very well developed crest. This crest can easily be seen in the photo's below as being well above the poll even when his is in a relaxed state with his nose poking out.
images5_zps5cde2c57.jpg

images4_zps84400040.jpg

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And when you look at the whole picture of a horse in work...and remember that despite many peoples obsession with it, the head position really is only a fraction of the overall aim. Looking at Valegro (as I feel the desire to defend him and Charlotte here), what you see is an harmonious picture. He is a horse that is so well engaged behind, so round through the back and uphill and so accepting of a good contact that the overall picture is worthy of nothing but admiration. This is what people should aim towards.

Does his being ever so marginally btv sometimes mean that he is ever pulled there? Hell no...as the picture below illustrates beautifully. Another engaged horse working correctly with no contact and his own balance has put him ever so marginally behind the vertical.
Miguel-Tavora_zps55714d04.jpg


My biggest wish with dressage is that things aren't always taken so literally. We are not riding machines. If we are so concerned with allowing these animals their own will, we must therefore be willing to allow them the freedom of movement...not expecting them to be bang on a certain angle in all the parts of the body all at the same time, all of the time.
 
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