dressage...behind the vertical

galaxy said:
I wonder how the OP know for sure that these BD Prelim to Ele horses are not being marked down and commented on being Btv? I'm currently competing BD prelim and yesterday did our first novice. My girl can drop sometimes through turns, due to balance and strength, it's something we are working on. If she does it in a test it is always picked up. Just because you see horses working that way does not mean it is being overlooked by judges.
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Completely agree. I scribed for a listed judge all day on Monday - just a (relatively) small local show - unaffiliated - and she absolutely picked up EVERY SINGLE TIME a horse was ducking behind the vertical - and why it was doing it - and marked accordingly. In the past two years, out and about with Kal, I've really not seen the numbers of horses going round BTV that the OP is claiming are out there . . .

P
 
_GG_ said:
My biggest wish with dressage is that things aren't always taken so literally. We are not riding machines. If we are so concerned with allowing these animals their own will, we must therefore be willing to allow them the freedom of movement...not expecting them to be bang on a certain angle in all the parts of the body all at the same time, all of the time.
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Indeed. And then there are the scales of training (which is ultimately what dressage is all about).

P
 
Wow, there is so much for me to disagree about on here, but hopefully the more kind of you will point out where or if I'm going wrong as I'm not riding at the moment but looking and learning especially about horse bio-mechanics. Sorry GG I don't agree with what you said about Valegro as he has very little crest, thankfully so, but I think his musculature is wrong in the neck as it is very pronounced, and not a fatty crest it you get me. I don't want to kick off an argument, but is it so difficult now to take on board the new information and knowledge of how a horse works in its entirety and especially with a rider on board? Elevation comes from behind, engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis lifts the lumbar vertebrae. Of course I know there is much more to it but I have seen so many pics of horses not tracking up, hollow under saddle and looking so tense in their faces at a high level (lol horses not riders but ..)

I found this very interesting reading and yes I have pony who I will be introducing to dressage when she (and I) are ready

http://www.horsesandpeople.com.au/article/collection-part-2-developing-the-top-line#.U_5AW8VdWqc

So, a real question to the very experienced out there - is it time to reconsider your training considering the new scientific information out there .. or do you carry on the way you normally do, or do you think it's a crock!!?
 
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doriangrey said:
Wow, there is so much for me to disagree about on here, but hopefully the more kind of you will point out where or if I'm going wrong as I'm not riding at the moment but looking and learning especially about horse bio-mechanics. Sorry GG I don't agree with what you said about Valegro as he has very little crest, thankfully so, but I think his musculature is wrong in the neck as it is very pronounced, and not a fatty crest it you get me. I don't want to kick off an argument, but is it so difficult now to take on board the new information and knowledge of how a horse works in its entirety and especially with a rider on board? Elevation comes from behind, engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis lifts the lumbar vertebrae. Of course I know there is much more to it but I have seen so many pics of horses not tracking up, hollow under saddle and looking so tense in their faces at a high level (lol horses not riders but ..)

I found this very interesting reading and yes I have pony who I will be introducing to dressage when she (and I) are ready

http://www.horsesandpeople.com.au/article/collection-part-2-developing-the-top-line#.U_5AW8VdWqc

So, a real question to the very experienced out there - is it time to reconsider your training considering the new scientific information out there .. or do you carry on the way you normally do, or do you think it's a crock!!?
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The word crest was used in response to another post. Base point being that you cannot look at the muscling of a horse and determine that that means the skeletal structure is incorrect. You have to look at the whole picture.

A horse that is always on or always above the vertical in a fixed position is not good...that is caused by tension. As a horses body moves, I believe we must allow their necks and heads to move as well. I am vehemently opposed to using force of any kind, but I al also opposed to holding a horse in a fixed position because it is determined to be correct.

I am always open to changing my methods of training. Throughout my life, I have changed enormously as I learn and take on more information. I think the day that you think you've got it cracked is the day you should jack it in.

That said, I also get really frustrated with the emphasis always being on the bl00dy head. Horses didn't tell us that their noses have to be on or just above the vertical, that's a human concept. Leave a horse to do his own thing and he will balance himself, sometimes above, sometimes on and sometimed just behind the vertical. What you don't see is horses pressing their chins to their own chests, so I won't ever agree with that. In short, what I am saying is that IF the whole picture of the horse is correct, weight truly taken behind, truly lifted through the back, then the nose being a fraction behind the vertical is really not that big a deal...a horse should be allowed the liberty to do that. When you watch Charlotte or Carl ride, they are elastic in their contact...they move with the horse in the contact rather than making the horse stay in a rigid frame. The whole picture shows a correct horse.

Overbending is the new trend in people to criticise others now. Your horse is slightly overbent so it's wrong, it's bad. I read this or I studied that and it says the nose should always be on or just above the vertical. ALL ABOUT THE NOSE.

It really does my head in. If you (in general, not aimed directly at you doriangrey) really care about the effects of riding and training on the horses mind and body, it is worth being completely independent in your thought. There are many articles being written now and many studies being conducted. Almost all of which have some form of bias. There's also a difference between overbent and behind the vertical to me. Overbent being from the neck and btv being the head alone. A horse not being able to be overbent and poll high, but being perfectly able, like Valegro, to be btv and poll high.

Of course people are going to disagree with me. That's fine. I'm still learning, I hope we all are. But quite a while ago now I realised that a horse moving in a way that supports its ability to carry us with their optimum health is mind actually has very little to do with where the flipping head is and that's why I can get a bit het up with the whole BTV thing.

Such concern for the horses head is leading to a total neglect of everything else. Not for everyone obviously, but for many novices at home, they don't know the difference. They can see btv as wrong, so let the horse go nose out, not realising it has hollowed through teh back and that is detrimental to the horse.

I would bin the term "on the bit" if I could and swap it for "engaged" and "lifted through the back" as they have a direct impact on the physiological health of the horse.
 
I agree with GG that on the bit is a term that's had it's day , and the focus on the head or nose is a red herring .
We have moved on .
Training has changed and moved on a lot in the forty years I have been having fun with horses .
I had a foreign trainer say to me once the horse freely gives it's self up to be ridden I have never forgotten that I thought it was a lovely way to express what training and developing a horse at it's best achieves .
 
Lol, GG .. don't disagree with you but elevation comes from engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis. Whatever you do at the front won't affect lumbar spine. It's just that the original poster got such a massive negative hit and I'm not sure why? Ok, I admit I'm being a little argumentative now, but we've lost IMO a real dialogue between riders/grooms/horses - so GG - what does it take for your horse to say 'I'm in pain or just quirky'?
 
doriangrey said:
Lol, GG .. don't disagree with you but elevation comes from engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis. Whatever you do at the front won't affect lumbar spine. It's just that the original poster got such a massive negative hit and I'm not sure why? Ok, I admit I'm being a little argumentative now, but we've lost IMO a real dialogue between riders/grooms/horses - so GG - what does it take for your horse to say 'I'm in pain or just quirky'?
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Not sure why you could think there's anything to be argumentative about as we saying the same thing.

Pain vs quirky? Basically knowing what is normal for a horse and what is not but no idea what that has to do with what had been discussed in recent pages. I don't think anyone wad harsh on the op...just concerned by the lack of willingness to see any other viewpoint.
 
doriangrey said:
Lol, GG .. don't disagree with you but elevation comes from engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis. Whatever you do at the front won't affect lumbar spine
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See this confuses me. The neck is connected to the spine (and the rest of the body) so surely what you do with it will affect the rest of the horse! You can't have a soft back without a soft neck.
 
Dg you mention pain, I just wanted to add I have a very hot wb and if there was any amount of discomfort or tension she will happily let me know full well there is! When I ride I normally put her in long and low, up and out, round and deep, flexing round my leg and on and back in collection/ extension and it makes her very soft and relaxed through her body and willing to work into a soft contact, if I did none of that and just pushed her to have her nose in the deemed perfect place we would struggle as she wouldn't be supple enough? Maybe I'm doing something wrong but if u think I am please tell me how I can work to improve as I am open to suggestions x
 
Farma said:
Dg you mention pain, I just wanted to add I have a very hot wb and if there was any amount of discomfort or tension she will happily let me know full well there is! When I ride I normally put her in long and low, up and out, round and deep, flexing round my leg and on and back in collection/ extension and it makes her very soft and relaxed through her body and willing to work into a soft contact, if I did none of that and just pushed her to have her nose in the deemed perfect place we would struggle as she wouldn't be supple enough? Maybe I'm doing something wrong but if u think I am please tell me how I can work to improve as I am open to suggestions x
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Sounds pretty good to me.
 
shortstuff99 said:
See this confuses me. The neck is connected to the spine (and the rest of the body) so surely what you do with it will affect the rest of the horse! You can't have a soft back without a soft neck.
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You can't you are spot on you have to be able to influence the neck to influence the whole horse.
You can't divide the horse up and ignore bits of it when you work it .
The main bulk of the muscles you are seeking to influence are in the horses body and neck .
 
Goldenstar said:
You can't you are spot on you have to be able to influence the neck to influence the whole horse.
You can't divide the horse up and ignore bits of it when you work it .
The main bulk of the muscles you are seeking to influence are in the horses body and neck .
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It's the age old.....doesn't matter how much you work on the back end, if you don't pay attention to the front, all will be lost!
 
I just wanted to resurrect this thread because I have a question.

What are the benefits of or indeed the problems with riding overbent on purpose - I'm not necessarily talking about anything as extreme as rollkur but I am talking about purposefully holding the horse BTV. Now I am told by a couple of people far more experienced than me that this is in fact done by a lot of competition riders for stretching and for getting a horse to be more submissive.

What is the consensus on this?
 
Wheels said:
I just wanted to resurrect this thread because I have a question.

What are the benefits of or indeed the problems with riding overbent on purpose - I'm not necessarily talking about anything as extreme as rollkur but I am talking about purposefully holding the horse BTV. Now I am told by a couple of people far more experienced than me that this is in fact done by a lot of competition riders for stretching and for getting a horse to be more submissive.

What is the consensus on this?
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For me it should not be "holding" the horse there, but the ability to move a horses body, all of it in independence is paramount to creating suppleness, relaxation, submission and overall harmony. If you have to pull a horse forcefully into flexion, then you are either going for too much flexion (rollkur) or you are missing some steps on the way and the horse is not yet balanced enough to flex parts of the body.
 
kate2323 said:
good point but should this be rewarded - why cant judges actually be allowed to write "behind the bit" ," in front of the bit "and "on the bit"...why is everything clouded in mystique with expressions like "does not accept the bridle" , "not submissive " "not through"
Why can't judges speak in plain english?!
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Because several of the phrases you've used mean different things.

What's that I hear trip,trap,tropping over the bridge?
 
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Wheels said:
I just wanted to resurrect this thread because I have a question.

What are the benefits of or indeed the problems with riding overbent on purpose - I'm not necessarily talking about anything as extreme as rollkur but I am talking about purposefully holding the horse BTV. Now I am told by a couple of people far more experienced than me that this is in fact done by a lot of competition riders for stretching and for getting a horse to be more submissive.

What is the consensus on this?
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No one else has answered your very sensible question, so I'll try, from my limited knowledge.

The draw backs of riding a horse overbent:

It is easy to tip them onto the forehand.

If you do it too much, it can be difficult to get them out of it in a competition.

The pros:

It's difficult for a horse to lock its back or neck when overbent, so it can be a good way to keep the horse loose.

It's more difficult for a boisterous horse to do any serious aerial acrobatics if kept overbent, so can be used to achieve submission, or at least control.

For me, I would choose overbent over a poking nose and set mouth and neck (and I'd choose it over being bucked off!). But I'm not talking about pulling the horse into it, and I'd try to get the nose up and out without losing the flexibility of the neck and feel on the mouth as soon as I could.

My understanding is that all top riders in dressage now train overbent. So it is achieving results in the ring. But there is also a lot of criticism among classicists of very high marks being given for technically incorrect paces.
 
_GG_ said:
For me it should not be "holding" the horse there, but the ability to move a horses body, all of it in independence is paramount to creating suppleness, relaxation, submission and overall harmony. If you have to pull a horse forcefully into flexion, then you are either going for too much flexion (rollkur) or you are missing some steps on the way and the horse is not yet balanced enough to flex parts of the body.
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joycec said:
No one else has answered your very sensible question, so I'll try, from my limited knowledge.

The draw backs of riding a horse overbent:

It is easy to tip them onto the forehand.

If you do it too much, it can be difficult to get them out of it in a competition.

The pros:

It's difficult for a horse to lock its back or neck when overbent, so it can be a good way to keep the horse loose.

It's more difficult for a boisterous horse to do any serious aerial acrobatics if kept overbent, so can be used to achieve submission, or at least control.

For me, I would choose overbent over a poking nose and set mouth and neck (and I'd choose it over being bucked off!). But I'm not talking about pulling the horse into it, and I'd try to get the nose up and out without losing the flexibility of the neck and feel on the mouth as soon as I could.

My understanding is that all top riders in dressage now train overbent. So it is achieving results in the ring. But there is also a lot of criticism among classicists of very high marks being given for technically incorrect paces.
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I did...think it just got lost, lol!
 
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