Dressage experts - can you help me and have a look at this PSG horse?

Sadly I don't think the horse looks happy working how he is. Whether this is due to the rider, training or a physical problem I'm not sure. I think he is genuine, but does not swing through the back or track up behind.

I would definately want hock x-rays and also his suspensories scanned, proximal suspensories in particular. If all came back clear, I think he would be worth a punt and hopefully with 6 months re-education could be quite nice, but the price would have to be very attractive.
 
... personally I think if it were me I'd pay that sort of money for a 'lower graded', younger horse in the UK and work up to PSG with a trainer. Or pay the money to take a trainer out to the continent with me to help me find a suitable horse. I'm sure if you looked you'd find a nice one for that sort of money closer to home.

I'm not a dressage 'expert' as such but have concentrated on dressage most of my adult life, and currently have a trakehner. If I was looking to buy this horse my initial impressions are not enough 'back end' and he's crooked most of the time, which suggests he's not been working through his back properly (either poor training or posisble injury), this is confirmed by the fact his transitions are awful in places and he's being yanked in the mouth all the time.

Honestly? My advice is unless you have (a) fallen in love with the horse or (b) you can afford a significant gamble then I'd walk away. There are hundreds of horses out there at the moment which are far nicer within your prcie bracket even if they don't have the PSG label on them. He's not currently a schoolmaster as you would have to spend time putting him right before you could do anything with him.
 
anuvb said:
... personally I think if it were me I'd pay that sort of money for a 'lower graded', younger horse in the UK and work up to PSG with a trainer. Or pay the money to take a trainer out to the continent with me to help me find a suitable horse. I'm sure if you looked you'd find a nice one for that sort of money closer to home.

I'm not a dressage 'expert' as such but have concentrated on dressage most of my adult life, and currently have a trakehner. If I was looking to buy this horse my initial impressions are not enough 'back end' and he's crooked most of the time, which suggests he's not been working through his back properly (either poor training or posisble injury), this is confirmed by the fact his transitions are awful in places and he's being yanked in the mouth all the time.

Honestly? My advice is unless you have (a) fallen in love with the horse or (b) you can afford a significant gamble then I'd walk away. There are hundreds of horses out there at the moment which are far nicer within your prcie bracket even if they don't have the PSG label on them. He's not currently a schoolmaster as you would have to spend time putting him right before you could do anything with him.
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thanks - it's interesting as maybe this is where dressage differs from country to country? The trainers here think that to buy a PSG horse on the continent that is up to the same standard as this one (granted with flashier paces) will cost double. This is before they knew I was even interested in this horse, so it wasn't just a sales line
 
absolute no from me.
no basics-he's stiff, behind the leg, zero engagement.
walk is lateral, canter behind the leg and climbing.

he's an elem horse being forced through GP work and although he looks genuine and sweet, you've got a long road ahead of you to learn higher level work on him.
 
Another no from me, sorry. Not got the baisics, and as princess sparkle said, hes just been forced up through the grades. Hes also a bit older, where as you could get something maybe 8/9 that knows the baisics, whos at maybe elem, and id imagine youd progress just as quickly with that as you would with the horse in question, because i think youd have to pretty much start again, getting the baisics re-established. :( Lovely horse though.
 
The walk is incorrect. In competition it could not get more than 4. Whether it is man made or natural is impossible to say but I'm sure that he will be well established with a lateral walk.
Just remember that many people have fallen into the trap of thinking that a badly ridden horse only requires a good rider to make it go better. It doesn't necessarily follow. Sometimes they become accustomed to adapting themselves to the rider and develop in that way. If they are asked to change that they can often struggle to improve. If a horse has been ridden in a certain way it will often invite you to ride it the same way and don't want to alter their way of going.
That price range looks very expensive for a horse that doesn't go on the bit, has 1 incorrect pace and 2 ok ones and needs retraining with no guarantee that his body will cope with it.
 
HammieHamlet said:
thanks - it's interesting as maybe this is where dressage differs from country to country? The trainers here think that to buy a PSG horse on the continent that is up to the same standard as this one (granted with flashier paces) will cost double. This is before they knew I was even interested in this horse, so it wasn't just a sales line
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That horse on the continent would not be called a PSG horse so it is not really possible to compare. Just because he can do changes doesn't mean that his work is of a good enough standard to have that label any more than a circus horse is. The movements have certain requirements as laid down by the FEI for competition on the basis of the classical schools. The Russian training is not the same. I can do a few ballet moves but that doesn't make me a ballerina!!!!
 
All I can think when watching those videos is there's 4 riders in that arena and not 1 hat between them! It's hard to evaluate the horse with such a shocking rider on board. He must be saint to put up with her though, which is a plus.
 
He looks very genuine but as others have said he's got some massive holes in his training!!

As Oldvic said the walk was completely lateral as was the rein back and I personally wouldn't be convinced of his soundness.

Remember that foreign vettings are not to the same standard as ours and they will pass horses that our vets wouldn't touch with a barge pole!!

Would def have front feet, hocks and stifles x-rayed as well as the suspensories ultra-sounded. These would all then need to be assessed by an equine vet in the UK if you decided to go ahead.

I think the horse would have to be very cheap but providing he hasn't been doped in the videos then he deserves a medal for putting up with that rider, bad back or not, which gives the impression that he must be a saint.
 
I think his right fore and hind look 'wrong'....

He throws the hind leg out to the side often and it doesn't always track up as much as the left - though neither track up much at all... And the right fore twists too.

Trouble is, that the rider is constantly asking him to go sideways so you barely get to see him straight down one whole long side in one even pace.

Given the costs for keeping him there, and shipping back surely this is never going to be a profit-making exercise?

What about a nicely started youngster??

x x
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
absolute no from me.
no basics-he's stiff, behind the leg, zero engagement.
walk is lateral, canter behind the leg and climbing.

he's an elem horse being forced through GP work and although he looks genuine and sweet, you've got a long road ahead of you to learn higher level work on him.
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thanks... if he has been forced through to GP, at least it shows that he is a sweet natured horse as many wouldn't put up with that (not that I would want to buy him just for this reason!). Glad you mentioned the lateral walk...
 
oldvic said:
The walk is incorrect. In competition it could not get more than 4. Whether it is man made or natural is impossible to say but I'm sure that he will be well established with a lateral walk.
Just remember that many people have fallen into the trap of thinking that a badly ridden horse only requires a good rider to make it go better. It doesn't necessarily follow. Sometimes they become accustomed to adapting themselves to the rider and develop in that way. If they are asked to change that they can often struggle to improve. If a horse has been ridden in a certain way it will often invite you to ride it the same way and don't want to alter their way of going.
That price range looks very expensive for a horse that doesn't go on the bit, has 1 incorrect pace and 2 ok ones and needs retraining with no guarantee that his body will cope with it.
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thank you - was really hoping the walk would be picked up on as i failed to spot it initially whilst filming and certainly wouldn't want to take on a horse with a lateral walk!
 
oldvic said:
That horse on the continent would not be called a PSG horse so it is not really possible to compare. Just because he can do changes doesn't mean that his work is of a good enough standard to have that label any more than a circus horse is. The movements have certain requirements as laid down by the FEI for competition on the basis of the classical schools. The Russian training is not the same. I can do a few ballet moves but that doesn't make me a ballerina!!!!
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that's interesting too, as the woman riding is an FEI judge who travels all over the world (including at some very well known competitions in the UK) judging at top level. Not sure how that all fits in with the training of this horse?!
 
Ignition said:
All I can think when watching those videos is there's 4 riders in that arena and not 1 hat between them! .
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welcome to russia ;o) i could list at least 100 non compliant safety aspects of life over here (including openly walking on train tracks / driving), and believe me, riding without a hat is probably about the least of people's worries!!
 
JLav said:
He looks very genuine but as others have said he's got some massive holes in his training!!

As Oldvic said the walk was completely lateral as was the rein back and I personally wouldn't be convinced of his soundness.

Remember that foreign vettings are not to the same standard as ours and they will pass horses that our vets wouldn't touch with a barge pole!!

Would def have front feet, hocks and stifles x-rayed as well as the suspensories ultra-sounded. These would all then need to be assessed by an equine vet in the UK if you decided to go ahead.

I think the horse would have to be very cheap but providing he hasn't been doped in the videos then he deserves a medal for putting up with that rider, bad back or not, which gives the impression that he must be a saint.
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thanks again - that makes 3 people commenting on the walk, so I am really glad that this has been picked up as it certainly wasn't pointed out to me...suprise suprise ;o)

I think the horse is a saint for what its worth - but from the comments posted here I will keep looking and give this one a miss. In terms of the vetting, I certainly wouldn't trust one over here (especially where money is involved) so had planned to get xrays sent across to the UK to be analysed.
 
HammieHamlet said:
that's interesting too, as the woman riding is an FEI judge who travels all over the world (including at some very well known competitions in the UK) judging at top level. Not sure how that all fits in with the training of this horse?!
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I wouldn't be blinded by that, either!

When I opened the link to the videos I expected to be impressed and couldn't quite believe my eyes. I couldn't watch any further than shortly after what I assumed to be some passage? into lengthening and the rider collapsing in a heap on his shoulders.

Quite apart from his awful front legs, whose flight path detracted from what might have been a nice picture, I think it was impossible to tell how good he might be due to the appalling riding. You can make anything look lame behind by thumping about on its back and using an unsteady and 'ignorant' hand. Attitude-wise, he's a saint, but regardless of hampering by the dreadful rider who did him no favours at all, I was expecting something less shut down and more expressive. I risked a peep at him in walk, hoping to see a relaxed frame and free swing but couldn't fathom what was being demonstrated!

He looks like a sweetie who, if passed sound by a good vetting might be worth up to 6k? I think there's better over here. Are you thinking to rescue him?
 
JLav said:
As Oldvic said the walk was completely lateral as was the rein back and I personally wouldn't be convinced of his soundness.
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The rein back HAS to be lateral!! FEI definition:

The rein back is an equilateral, retrograde movement in which the feet are raised and set down by diagonal pairs. The feet should be well raised and the hind feet remain well in line.
 
brighteyes said:
I wouldn't be blinded by that, either!

When I opened the link to the videos I expected to be impressed and couldn't quite believe my eyes. I couldn't watch any further than shortly after what I assumed to be some passage? into lengthening and the rider collapsing in a heap on his shoulders.


she collapsed in a heap as the stirrup broke!! (i wrote it on the comments bit of the video)

Unfortunately the videos are loaded in the wrong order - the ones are at the top where she is trying the more advanced stuff, which isn't great. If you take a look at some of the ones lower down (for example, number 21) i think he looks a different horse entirely
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She has murdered his walk.
He goes very sweetly and willingly in his lateral work there.

If he were 6k plus travel I'd consider it but certainly not any more
 
If he passed a vetting and was cheap I'd buy him, I like him! :). He's stiff and unsupple, and his walk is dreadful, but I think a huge amount of this is how he's being ridden. He looks ever so sweet and I bet that with a few months of decent riding and just ridden gymnastically and with suppleness in mind, I bet he'd be a nice sweet amateur's horse at Elementary or Medium. Not PSG, by a long, long, long way. I bet he walks ok naturally and can learn his walk again once the whole rudimentary piaffe thing has been forgotten poor creature.

So, no, not a FEI horse, but at a low price and if you are willing to do some basic reschooling and he's sound, then I've seen a whole lot worse! There are nice flashes in there when he briefly shows his natural movement.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
absolute no from me.
no basics-he's stiff, behind the leg, zero engagement.
walk is lateral, canter behind the leg and climbing.

he's an elem horse being forced through GP work and although he looks genuine and sweet, you've got a long road ahead of you to learn higher level work on him.
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Definately agree with this, he has aboslutly no basics established at all, there is no swing over his back, hes tight in his neck and jaw. Hes not engaged at all and i would see needs a good 6months worth of work before he would get decent marks at even medium level in this country. I wouldnt pay more than 6k for him, sorry.

IMO there are much nicer younger horses for sale in this country that you could train yourself, without having to undone work thats been done on an older horse - which will take a lot longer than training a youngster......
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
The rein back HAS to be lateral!! FEI definition:

The rein back is an equilateral, retrograde movement in which the feet are raised and set down by diagonal pairs. The feet should be well raised and the hind feet remain well in line.
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I was using the term lateral to mean both legs on the SAME side at the same time. The rein back should be diagonal!!
 
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JLav, you're right of course - I misread your post to mean that you were expecting a 4-beat rhythm in the rein back (v.long day yesterday :) )

ETA: I haven't seen the rein back video so have no idea about it specifically, I was just (mis)commenting in general :D
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
JLav, you're right of course - I misread your post to mean that you were expecting a 4-beat rhythm in the rein back (v.long day yesterday :) )

ETA: I haven't seen the rein back video so have no idea about it specifically, I was just (mis)commenting in general :D
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It's worth watching as it is bizarre to say the least and creates the strangest movement. Can't remember which of the vids its on tho!
 
He looks like a really sweet chap, but I have to agree with others the rider is shocking and the horse has not been properly educated.

If I was looking at him I would be tempted to pop him in a snaffle to see what is left of his mouth after all that pulling from that rider and then run through movements from Elem and Med tests to see how he copes. I have a feeling he would struggle with relatively basic stuff, e.g. 10m canter circles. Is it possible for you to try him again?
 
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