Dressage high(?) hands

[stangs]

Numpty question ahead. I see a lot of more advanced dressage riders with their forearms almost perpendicular to their upper arms, so their hands end up much higher above the withers and up the neck than I thought they were supposed to be - e.g. like this

Spoiler: pictures

To me, it feels like having your hands that height would surely encourage the horse to drop behind the vertical if you're in a double bridle. Not to mention it goes against the mouth -> elbow line. But, if so many are doing it, there must be a reason, if for the rider's biomechanics and not the horse's? Is this something to work towards in your equitation now?

 

[[59668]]

To me, this looks like a consequence of a few things...although I will say it is hard to tell from a picture.
It looks like there is tension in the riders shoulders/upper arms, and I wonder if this is a consequence of the amount of strength it takes to hold these horses in position....almost pulling their heads in. This is something I see a lot and hate...you almost see the riders arms shaking with the weight they are holding up.
Also I think this is maybe an attempt to incorrectly "lift" the head, so the neck isn't so obviously breaking at the wrong point (a few vertebrae behind the poll) rather than the poll being the highest point. So it's almost trying to "force" the correct outline again?

 

[Cortez]

As horses become more collected their necks are raised and the rider's hands will therefore follow. Neither of the horses shown are behind the vertical.

To me, this looks like a consequence of a few things...although I will say it is hard to tell from a picture.
It looks like there is tension in the riders shoulders/upper arms, and I wonder if this is a consequence of the amount of strength it takes to hold these horses in position....almost pulling their heads in. This is something I see a lot and hate...you almost see the riders arms shaking with the weight they are holding up.
Also I think this is maybe an attempt to incorrectly "lift" the head, so the neck isn't so obviously breaking at the wrong point (a few vertebrae behind the poll) rather than the poll being the highest point. So it's almost trying to "force" the correct outline again?

Sorry, but this is nonsense. You cannot "hold" a horse's head up. Some riders do have too much pressure on the mouth, although it's a rather old fashioned style of riding and doesn't produce good results.

 

[stangs]

The video the top picture's from if it helps: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CbIrDSSsGzu/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

As horses become more collected their necks are raised and the rider's hands will therefore follow. Neither of the horses shown are behind the vertical.

So the elbow no longer needs to be in a straight line with the mouth when the horse is more collected?

 

[shortstuff99]

The 2 pictures do show a tighter frame then what classical dressage collection would show. If the neck and head was more out and up in the collection the hands at that height would be a straight line.

Plus some riders do hold their hands too high.

 

[[59668]]

Sorry, but this is nonsense. You cannot "hold" a horse's head up. Some riders do have too much pressure on the mouth, although it's a rather old fashioned style of riding and doesn't produce good results.

I didn't say they are holding the horses head up.
A lot of incorrectly trained horses including modern dressage horses are incredibly heavy in the hand. You see a lot of riders shaking with the weight they are holding through their arms. In an attempt to be in an "outline"

 

[milliepops]

It looks like there is tension in the riders shoulders/upper arms, and I wonder if this is a consequence of the amount of strength it takes to hold these horses in position....almost pulling their heads in. This is something I see a lot and hate...you almost see the riders arms shaking with the weight they are holding up.

I think this might be the part that came across that way?

 

[milliepops]

the pic of the iberian horse is also deceptive because of the crest, so it's not broken at the neck.

We could equally start a thread about people riding with their hands in their laps. i think what is important is an elastic contact and a forward feeling one, which the video clip demonstrates, i think.

 

[[59668]]

I think this might be the part that came across that way?

OK.
Anyway, gave my thoughts, dismissed as nonsense, I'll get back in my box.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I didn't say they are holding the horses head up.
A lot of incorrectly trained horses including modern dressage horses are incredibly heavy in the hand. You see a lot of riders shaking with the weight they are holding through their arms. In an attempt to be in an "outline"

I've not seen "riders shaking with the weight they are holding through their arms" I've seen some heavy horses, and some riders not being able to ride the movement/power of some horses, but I've not seen that. I guess you know/see a lot of incorrect riding and training?

There's also the school of thought re higher hands and the bit working on the corners of the horse's mouth as opposed to more bar and/or tongue pressure. It's viewed as kinder and more favorable. I think that's more promoted by the Légèreté folks.

Plus, if the horse carries the neck higher the hands follow. Some people also have short arms and/short arms on a long torso and I think that changes your position and angles a bit.

 

[milliepops]

I am interested in peoples views but i haven't seen anyone shaking with the effort of holding their horse up, i have seen people shake the contact to half halt in a less than harmonious way but that's genuinely the only kind of shaking i can remember. Do you have any memorable examples?

 

[milliepops]

yeah the riders in the example photos don't strike me as being the shaky kind :/ Even if the contact looks strong sometimes with CDJ her physical control of her body is extraordinary!

 

[LEC]

Ingrid Klimke was very disciplined about the hands and how they should be in the demo. Wanted straight lines from elbow to wrist and for the elbow to be light and soft in front of the hips. The hands should be close together and thumbs on top.

it’s not new -
https://cdn.wehorse.com/trainer/image/hero/en/dr-reiner-klimke.jpg

On a younger horse where frame isn’t so established the hand will be a little lower.

 

[RachelFerd]

Ingrid Klimke was very disciplined about the hands and how they should be in the demo. Wanted straight lines from elbow to wrist and for the elbow to be light and soft in front of the hips. The hands should be close together and thumbs on top.

it’s not new -
https://cdn.wehorse.com/trainer/image/hero/en/dr-reiner-klimke.jpg

On a younger horse where frame isn’t so established the hand will be a little lower.
View attachment 89536

Ah, I wish I was Ingrid

Beautiful seat, no ridiculous knee blocks, everything harmonious.... waaaaaah!!!

 

[Cortez]

Ingrid Klimke was very disciplined about the hands and how they should be in the demo. Wanted straight lines from elbow to wrist and for the elbow to be light and soft in front of the hips. The hands should be close together and thumbs on top.

it’s not new -
https://cdn.wehorse.com/trainer/image/hero/en/dr-reiner-klimke.jpg

On a younger horse where frame isn’t so established the hand will be a little lower.
View attachment 89536

Ingrid Klimke, like her father before her, is a beautiful rider. However, if you draw lines on the picture above her hands are higher than a straight line from the elbow to the bit. I am wary of drawing lines, and of absolutes - there are always variables and moment-in-time factors to bear in mind. Suffice it to say that yes, a straight line from elbow to bit is desirable, but it is not the only thing to look at. Given a choice between a too high hand and a too low one, I'd go for a raised hand every time, always barring great extremes of course.

 

[milliepops]

I am wary of drawing lines, and of absolutes -

this! i think many would agree that the photo of ingrid is pleasing overall but even here if you were a line-drawer you'd point out that the horse is btv.
it's not a particularly helpful approach, IMO.

 

[Cortez]

I didn't say they are holding the horses head up.
A lot of incorrectly trained horses including modern dressage horses are incredibly heavy in the hand. You see a lot of riders shaking with the weight they are holding through their arms. In an attempt to be in an "outline"

Who have you seen shaking in their arms? There are indeed some riders that have a very strong contact and it's not pretty (looking at you Ms Cornelisen...), but I have yet to see that at any decent level of dressage competition. Even horses that have been ridden in a very heavy contact are not so heavy in the hand that I'd strain myself (not that I'd continue riding that way anyway - it's a fixable problem). I wonder if you've ridden some high level horses that are extremely heavy in the hand?

 

[sbloom]

Having seen the instant effect, once you have de-rotated the rider's upper body, which Charlotte is incredible at, keeping a good bend in the elbows but offering the contact forwards so as to engage the rider's solar plexus, seems to be the way to go. This may or may not always be in a straight line with the horse's mouth, but it does enable the horse to instantly push up in front instead of being on the forehand. IMO even many of the top horses are somewhat on the forehand, riders leaning back to hold them. We should not need a six pack to ride though we do need a strong and stable pelvic area, and lateral control through the ribcage.

 

[Cloball]

It's a matter of perspective as well, if the photo is not taken directly at 90 degrees a hand creeping across the midline might appear at an angle.

A pony I used to ride greatly improved with slightly higher hands as she'd been ridden in quite a fixed contact and would duck behind the vertical and bog off. Working the corners of her mouth softly seemed to work for her.

 

[magicmoments]

Having seen the instant effect, once you have de-rotated the rider's upper body, which Charlotte is incredible at, keeping a good bend in the elbows but offering the contact forwards so as to engage the rider's solar plexus, seems to be the way to go. This may or may not always be in a straight line with the horse's mouth, but it does enable the horse to instantly push up in front instead of being on the forehand. IMO even many of the top horses are somewhat on the forehand, riders leaning back to hold them. We should not need a six pack to ride though we do need a strong and stable pelvic area, and lateral control through the ribcage.

Could you clarify would you mean by de-rotate the riders upper body please. Always looking to learn

 

[Leandy]

The straight line elbow, hand, horse's mouth should still exist and is correct. So a horse in a more novice, longer lower outline generally means and requires lower hands whereas a horse in self carriage and a more advanced outline will mean higher hands to maintain the line the line to the bit. For a horse working in self carriage and requiring less support from the rider, higher hands also makes "giving" towards the bit easier as well as use of a double bridle. For the more advanced horse and rider, both need to maintain a certain about of "poise" to present a polished impression. I'm not quite sure how to put that latter point, but it is the same as the poise seen of a ballet dancer or a gymnast or skater, and results not just from effective use of the body but also gives a certain overall impression in what is, after all, a subjective sport.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Where do the riders who do the low wide pinned hands thing get taught to do that? Is it a taught technique, or just people riding badly?

 

[sbloom]

Could you clarify would you mean by de-rotate the riders upper body please. Always looking to learn

Very very few of us are symmetrical with our ribcages and shoulders aligned directly over our pelvis. Here is CdeJ and the horse's own rider at a demo in Sweden.

Where do the riders who do the low wide pinned hands thing get taught to do that? Is it a taught technique, or just people riding badly?

It is absolutely taught, sadly, especially for young horses and as some misunderstood approach into keeping horses' heads down. The fact it acts on the bars, never teaches a horse to seek the content and takes away its balancing rod seems to be ignored.

 

[magicmoments]

Very very few of us are symmetrical with our ribcages and shoulders aligned directly over our pelvis. Here is CdeJ and the horse's own rider at a demo in Sweden.

View attachment 89550


It is absolutely taught, sadly, especially for young horses and as some misunderstood approach into keeping horses' heads down. The fact it acts on the bars, never teaches a horse to seek the content and takes away its balancing rod seems to be ignored.

Thank you, totally understand what you mean now. I think many coaches, don't spend enough time observing the horse/rider from infront/behind

 

[littleshetland]

All horses are different and how they naturally carry themselves and their conformation has an effect on how we train them and how we have to adjust our techniques to achieve a nice forward horse going into a good contact. I think as long as our hands are going 'forward' so we can encourage them into softness and self carriage, we're doing something right. The actual position of the hands changes as the schooling session progresses and also the overall level the horse is working at. As they learn and change, we have to change with them, so I say do what you have to to achieve the right way of going.......the trick is making sure you absolutely know and understand what the right way of going feels like!

 

[teapot]

this! i think many would agree that the photo of ingrid is pleasing overall but even here if you were a line-drawer you'd point out that the horse is btv.
it's not a particularly helpful approach, IMO.

Indeed, or drawing a line to point out the curve in her spine (more so than others) if you were to look at her side on!

Still, she’s a legend and to have a mm of her ability… sigh.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Having seen the instant effect, once you have de-rotated the rider's upper body, which Charlotte is incredible at, keeping a good bend in the elbows but offering the contact forwards so as to engage the rider's solar plexus, seems to be the way to go. This may or may not always be in a straight line with the horse's mouth, but it does enable the horse to instantly push up in front instead of being on the forehand. IMO even many of the top horses are somewhat on the forehand, riders leaning back to hold them. We should not need a six pack to ride though we do need a strong and stable pelvic area, and lateral control through the ribcage.

What does “de-rotated the rider's upper body” mean? And how do you achieve this?

 

[Sossigpoker]

What does “de-rotated the rider's upper body” mean? And how do you achieve this?

Essentially means to have the rider sitting straight and symmetrically.
You achieve this- or seek to achieve this certainly in my case - by building up your core stability (Pilates is your friend ) and having a good coach who can point out when you sit correctly and symmetrically and when this isn't the case , what needs to change.

 

[sbloom]

What does “de-rotated the rider's upper body” mean? And how do you achieve this?

I answered this further up , it's one (excellent imo) way of looking at rider biomechanics. What each rider needs will be different.

@Sossigpoker Pilates is great, as are ridden biomechanics sessions, but so often we first need to identify each rider's individual issues. and simply building core strength (a lot of what is thought of as core strength isn't needed or helpful for riding, and is so often needed in order to maintain an out of balance seat) can simply lock in our asymmetries etc at an individual joint level. In an ideal world I recommend a good bodyworker and then an individual assessment involving intrinsic biomechanics and other approaches that really look at how well each joint is functioning.

I had one rider who did weekly classes, had a couple of sessions with a well know national biomechanics coach and physio, and was skeletally pretty straight, but she was terribly crooked on the horse. Once she went to my recommended "neuromechanics" coach she really started to straighten up - her neural connections weren't firing properly, and this can involve proprioception and all sorts of things that aren't addressed elsewhere. Once you get into this stuff it's absolutely fascinating.

 

[Cortez]

I answered this further up , it's one (excellent imo) way of looking at rider biomechanics. What each rider needs will be different.

@Sossigpoker Pilates is great, as are ridden biomechanics sessions, but so often we first need to identify each rider's individual issues. and simply building core strength (a lot of what is thought of as core strength isn't needed or helpful for riding, and is so often needed in order to maintain an out of balance seat) can simply lock in our asymmetries etc at an individual joint level. In an ideal world I recommend a good bodyworker and then an individual assessment involving intrinsic biomechanics and other approaches that really look at how well each joint is functioning.

I had one rider who did weekly classes, had a couple of sessions with a well know national biomechanics coach and physio, and was skeletally pretty straight, but she was terribly crooked on the horse. Once she went to my recommended "neuromechanics" coach she really started to straighten up - her neural connections weren't firing properly, and this can involve proprioception and all sorts of things that aren't addressed elsewhere. Once you get into this stuff it's absolutely fascinating.

Is this just another (and terribly convoluted) way of saying sit up, sit straight and keep your joints aligned as you're told to by a good instructor?