Dressage marks - ponderings

[chestnut cob]

I should really be working but am clearly procrastinating....
Given that I'm now only doing DR, I've been pondering marks. I've done a few My Quest competitions with my little native type, placed top 3 (and won one), scores always 69-73%. I also nipped out at the weekend to do a couple of UA tests which were judged by a BD judge, and got a 69% (which would have been a 70% if it hadn't been for mistakes on my part) and 72.5%.

Putting aside something exceptional happening, like a random spook or sudden disobedience, or forgetting where you're going (happens to me more often than I'd like to admit!), and assuming you do an accurate, obedient test... what makes a movement an 8 rather than a 7?

If I look at my recent sheets, they're 7.0s, 7.5s with the odd 8.0 thrown in, then I usually make a couple of stupid mistakes and we'll get a couple of movements that drop down to 6s which might affect the collectives also. I know what the marks mean on the sheet (ie good, fairly good etc), but from a judge's perspective, what makes them give an 8 rather than a 7.0 or a 7.5 for a movement? Where does that little extra half a mark come from?

Just curious really as I find it all quite interesting!

 

[JennBags]

I think various things but probably the degree of submission, relaxation - and also expression. You should try doing some writing, it really helps and is very interesting to see how different judges mark differently.

 

[chestnut cob]

I think various things but probably the degree of submission, relaxation - and also expression. You should try doing some writing, it really helps and is very interesting to see how different judges mark differently.

That's a good point actually - I haven't done DR writing for years.

 

[ihatework]

Balance, suppleness, overall way of going, accuracy to the marker etc.
So a 7 is a fairly good movement (or no major mistakes or resistance) but could be more 'insert' to make it good.

 

[Batgirl]

If you want to get really geeky the FEI Judges Handbook is a great insight into this. I also have a blog that touches on things like this (I even have a 6/7 comparison pic of me on my horse doing the same movements). It's on facebook 'Arnie and Laura Musings of an amateur dressage enthusiast and her steed'. I am a trainee judge, I do requests and I don't advertise products or earn any money out of it.

 

[milliepops]

I just splurged on the fei judges handbook. .. that's my night-time reading sorted for a good while!

 

[Batgirl]

I love it, especially the collectives section, real eye opener!

 

[Cortez]

The difference is in the expression, the lightness, the joy of the horse, the artistry if you will. Just "doing it" and hitting the mark is not really what dressage is about. This is why the horse's way of going and elasticity is so important - the quality of the movement, and the fineness of the training & riding. It's why people who don't really "get" dressage are so annoyed when a fancy, bouncy warmblood beats their honest but unathletic and earthbound cob.

And why a beautifully trained cob will (or should) beat a flashy but disengaged WB.

 

[be positive]

The difference is in the expression, the lightness, the joy of the horse, the artistry if you will. Just "doing it" and hitting the mark is not really what dressage is about. This is why the horse's way of going and elasticity is so important - the quality of the movement, and the fineness of the training & riding. It's why people who don't really "get" dressage are so annoyed when a fancy, bouncy warmblood beats their honest but unathletic and earthbound cob.

And why a beautifully trained cob will (or should) beat a flashy but disengaged WB.

This, most horses can get 6-7 but to get an 8 they need to be showing something of quality not just being accurate and correct, a few weeks ago I helped a livery warm up for her second test, same judge, with a few tweaks her trot work went from mainly 6's to several 8's with a bit more work the 8's would have been consistent, the only change was to get her softer in her arms allowing the horse to move with more quality and expression.

 

[paddi22]

i always think of it like the difference between watching someone trying to hit the moves in an aerobics class versus watching someone doing expressive ballet.

Writing for a judge was a complete eye opener, it completely changed the way i rode in tests after!

 

[eggs]

Quality of the pace is usually what will make the difference ie. having more expression in the trot for example. Having been to a fair few dressage demos (BD convention and such) it is amazing how these top riders can produce a really 'wow' trot from a horse - they will show you the horses normal trot and then transform it into a beautiful expressive trot.

 

[Mince Pie]

Quality of the pace is usually what will make the difference ie. having more expression in the trot for example. Having been to a fair few dressage demos (BD convention and such) it is amazing how these top riders can produce a really 'wow' trot from a horse - they will show you the horses normal trot and then transform it into a beautiful expressive trot.

Are there any videos online of this do you know?

 

[spookypony]

I think the jump from 7 to 8, from my limited perspective of having a lovely little horse that finds dressage easy, but with whom I do far too little work, is that that's the point when the movement being marked becomes a bit special. We get a 6 if a movement happens more or less in the right place and is the correct movement, albeit perhaps imperfectly executed. A 7 seems to be: there's not much wrong with it, but it's about what's expected, executed cleanly. An 8 is: hey, this is a proud horse! It's also the point, I think, when the judge stops calling her "sweet pony" and refers to her as "horse". (She's 15hh, and very very fluffy in the winter.)

 

[Vodkagirly]

It's interesting to video a test and watch back when you have the sheet. It's normally quite clear which movements should be marked higher.

 

[chestnut cob]

Thanks for all of the replies, very interesting.
At my competition yesterday I actually managed to grab 5 mins with the judge who'd judged both of my tests between classes. The difference between the 7 and 8 marks is definitely very individual to each horse. In the case of my horse, she said he's a very reliable type who will never produce anything below a 7 unless I do something incorrect (ie miss a movement, 20m circle instead of 15m and so on) but in her opinion, his work needs to be more supple to be reliably into 8s. She told me to go home and work on getting more suppleness and bend around the inside leg, as the harder tests (P17 and P18) showed up where he was not supple enough.

She also said that in her opinion at Prelim, she isn't look for "wow" paces, she's looking for consistency and rhythm, the latter he got an 8 for. Said his rhythm is excellent but he doesn't have wow paces like the WBs, however at this level she also said wow paces are nothing when the horse starts on 8s then has a fit at something, drops down to 4s and 5s, and is generally inconsistent during the test with its rhythm all over the place because of tension/ spooking etc. She believes that when I improve his suppleness and get him more around my inside leg, the marks will go up into 8s rather than 7s.

Very informative and constructive 5 minutes, gives me plenty to work on!

Spookypony, I think there's some truth in what you say about being called a horse vs sweet pony actually! The judge yesterday essentially said he's a sweet pony but nothing special, obedient, does everything in the right place etc. I have my lessons from a pro DR rider (rides at I1/2) who regularly tells me he has fab paces and is very special, when I get him working correctly (and she's definitely not one for blowing smoke up your backside, as I regularly get told off too!), but I haven't yet managed to produce the work I get at home in the test arena yet. I can do it in the warm up now but I get a lot of tension in the arena which leads to very "safe" tests. I also agree with you Eggs about a pro rider - the difference in the work my horse produces when instructor gets on compared to when I ride is vast.